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One PoE feature I would like to warn every BG/IWD fan about

JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
Browsing the Internet on the subject of Pillars of Eternity previews and trying to escape any spoilers as much as I can, I still have noticed one major thing many players encounter and/or complain about: the engagement system.

You wizard has been chasen by an enemy and right now this enemy is next to your wizard. So the first thing you do in BG/IWD is that you attempt to kite your wizard away, don't you?

If you do it in PoE, it would be a big, big mistake. You will suffer a disengagement attack after a disengagement attack afterwards.

in PoE, this system basically means the following.

When two opposed combatants come near each other and one of them

a) has a melee weapon equipped
b) is not moving
c) is not currently at his or her maximum limit of engagement targets (the standard is 1),

- the other character will be Engaged. When an opponent is Engaged by an attacker, moving any significant distance away from the attacker will provoke a Disengagement Attack, a "free" action with no recovery.

A Disengagement Attack has an inherent Accuracy bonus, does significantly more damage than a standard attack, and will call a hit reaction animation while momentarily stopping the character's movement.


When it's initiated, a Disengagement Attack automatically breaks Engagement on the target, but if the target is also the attacker's current melee target, the attacker will typically be able to re-establish Engagement before the target can move farther away.

If the attacker switches to a non-melee weapon or performs a non-melee-based action, Engagement immediately ends. If the attacker moves away from their Engagement targets, is paralyzed, knocked down, or otherwise prevented from maintaining a threat, Engagement will also immediately end. If the attacker has a limited number of Engagement targets (as most do) and switches his or her attack focus to a different character, Engagement immediately ends.

Engagement range is only a little more than a character width (barring special circumstances) and most characters can only engage one enemy at a time. If they don't have a target, it's the first enemy who enters the radius. If they do have a target, it's them. For fighters in Defender mode, it's the first three, one of which is typically someone they are attacking.

Fleeing targets can be engaged, as soon as the pursuer catch up to them and stops moving, forcing them to stop as well.

This shouldn't come as a surprise to everyone who followed the PoE development closely, because the engagement system was covered in the 44th PoE update. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63432-update-44-the-rules-of-melee-engagement/

But the fact remains: many current reviewers of the game (many of them are media persons) encounter this problem and don't understand what's happening.

I've felt I have to post about it so that at least every forumite here could once more think about it and not be surprised while actually playing the game.
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Comments

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    bengoshi said:


    But the fact remains: many current reviewers of the game (many of them are media persons) encounter this problem and don't understand what's happening.

    I've noticed before that reviewers are plain stupid, and can't cope with games more complicated than Ludo. As for reading the manual, there isn't a chance.
  • cmk24cmk24 Member Posts: 605
    Heindrich said:

    I kinda like this mechanic. I always thought kiting was a bit cheesy, so instead of running away to resume shooting with a bow, I prefer to just switch to melee weapons and fight it out. Of course I do run if it the combat is a complete mismatch...

    That said, I hope the "engagement range" is not too big, because there is a difference between trying to escape when an enemy has already got you a bear grip (or for those familiar with tabletop games, base contact) and when somebody is still a few feet away, where it makes sense for weaker party members to back away and allow the warriors to step in. If the engagement zone is too big around each character/monster, it would be very difficult to protect mages and other ranged characters. I hope they also provide spells and abilities to help with disengagement without associated penalties. Something like Bolt Escape in Elder Scrolls or a fast-cast Shadow-Door.

    I have played the PoE backer beta and some classes do have various ways to disengage or reduce the power of disengagement attacks. I found the range to be good, and as long as you take the time to actually send your tanks in first you can prevent anybody getting to your ranged characters. That said, there is no AI (for your party) in PoE, so depending on how you build your characters there can be more micro-managing than the IE games.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    So if your character (which we'll assume has an engagement limit of 1) is in melee combat with 2 enemies and switches targets, this will trigger a disengagement attack from the first enemy?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited March 2015
    That system looks pretty cool. Yeah, it sux for the wizard, but then it really should.

    My thought is if someone closes on your wizard, have another party member, preferably a combat heavy one, close from behind and 'Distract' the attacker with heavy damage. Not sure how that will work in game though.
  • cmk24cmk24 Member Posts: 605
    TJ_Hooker said:

    So if your character (which we'll assume has an engagement limit of 1) is in melee combat with 2 enemies and switches targets, this will trigger a disengagement attack from the first enemy?

    Not quite, if you can reach the 2nd enemy *without moving* there is no disengagement attack. Disengagement only fires if you move away from the enemy you are engaged with.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    Nice mechanics you have there....
  • MetallomanMetalloman Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,975
    well, Opportunity Attack FTW!

    Like it, and it forces you to not go randomly around with your squishy mage first: it favors strategy :)
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    I love how this will make playing a Wizard and kiting the whole game much harder. Neat.
  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    It does make fighting spirits a pain, they teleport next to your mage and engage them all the time. Curse whoever thought to give the enemies decent AI.
  • MessiMessi Member Posts: 738
    wubble said:

    It does make fighting spirits a pain, they teleport next to your mage and engage them all the time. Curse whoever thought to give the enemies decent AI.

    This is pretty awesome isn't it?

    I really like the engagement mechanic. It makes moving your guys lot more tactical, and also a bit PSA try to set up your guys to surround enemies to get flanking bonuses. Standing behind enemies isn't just a rogue thing. :open_mouth:
  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    I try and use charname (sword and board fighter) to soak up damage and engage as many enemies as possible while Eder chops things to pieces with a great sword and takes most of the overflowing enemies, if anything gets past those two I use durance and sagani's fox companion to hold them until sagani kana and aloth can free up my fighters. It isn't easy to keep up with the enemies and hold them away from your squishy characters without triggering disengagement attacks.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited March 2015
    Apparently there is a bug in the game where if you double click an item to equip it your characters passive buffs will be removed. Some say its permanent, some say its only removing it from your character sheet (so the effects are still active behind the scenes), and others say that its somewhere in between. Personally I'm not about to test it but its worth giving a warning over. :)

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/guides/pillars-eternity/pillars-eternity-double-click-active-effect-bug-workaround
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    elminster said:

    Apparently there is a bug in the game where if you double click an item to equip it your characters passive buffs will be removed. Some say its permanent, some say its only removing it from your character sheet (so the effects are still active behind the scenes), and others say that its somewhere in between. Personally I'm not about to test it but its worth giving a warning over. :)

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/guides/pillars-eternity/pillars-eternity-double-click-active-effect-bug-workaround

    I think I read earlier this morning that Obsidian is planning on getting a patch out already sometime this week, and I imagine this would be high on the list.

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  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    For those who don't like this feature, there's always the very nice and tasty IE Mod with its "Disable Engagement" option out there. It also has many other goodies to bring the game closer in line with old IE games.
  • QbertQbert Member Posts: 195
    The engagement system isn't bad, but there have been a few times where either my party member or the opponent were hit by disengagement attacks for which i couldn't discern the cause. I'm not sure whether they were the results of bugs or what. Another thing i've noticed is the sfx sometimes cover the engagement indicator, which is really annoying, as i can't find any other notation to show me when a player is engaged. Lastly, the AI seems really adept at knowing when an opponent can safely run around the main battle to attack the squishy members of the party w/o triggering an engagement attack, whereas the player has no way to know (that i know of) whether the opponents have abilities that would cause engagement attacks trying to make the same maneuver.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    If the attack of opportunity is too sensitive, I'd agree with it. In sword fighting (and staff fighting!), you _can_ (and often do!) maneuver backwards or to the side without getting hit. If these engagement attacks are too sensitive are happening from little movement, they should probably add a threshold distance (ie. if you move further than X distance, there is an attack of opportunity) before the enemy gets a free hit.

    It'd be annoying to inch one character over to make room for another... then get tagged unrealistically.

    ... But you know how I am with realism. :p

    But there's a difference (at least in concept) between what you describe and what is intended. "Moving" while in combat is perfectly reasonable and a talented combatant will invariably do that without an attack of opportunity. Attempting to flee combat (or at least move to a safe distance) often means sacrificing defensibility for mobility. THAT I think is where the mechanic is "Supposed" to kick in.

    But as you say, if it is overly sensitive, it could be a PITA and not very realistic.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited March 2015
    They took this from 3rd Edition, and the mechanic is present (most famously) in Temple of Elemental Evil (which has often been praised as the best implementation of D&D combat ever put into a game) but also in both Neverwinter Nights games. I'm sure it never made IWD2 because the engine was limiting.

    Personally, I like it. It forces you to think about positioning and movement pre-fight quite a bit, and I know that if I move Aloth out of melee range, he is going to get cut down.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    That's Attack of Opportunity from 3E. Temple of Elemental Evil and NwN1/2 have it I think.

    Don't the Wizards get an attack that slams their spellbook on the enemy, knocking them back or something? This thing counters it.

    Also kiting is stupid.
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    It can't slam 87898987686796 shadows teleporting to you all at once, sadly.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited March 2015
    iKrivetko said:

    Oh, what's that? A shadow? Oh okay, should be an piece of ca…. WHAT THE SOD MY MAGE IS SURROUNDED

    I would have loved the engagement system if it weren't for the situation above. And the pathing.

    Shadows do throw you for a loop at the beginning. The best advice I can give is that it helps to have a fighter charge in with a knockdown at the start of the fight. He'll usually take the attention of two of them. I then send in my next beefiest character (formerly my Druid in Shapeshift form, but I just hired a Barbarian merc so she is gonna have that duty from now on). You can play with one frontline character (and by that I mean a Fighter, Paladin, Barb or Monk....and I suppose a Druid who choose Bear Form) but I would recommend having two. One with total defense focus and one who is strong enough to stand in the thick of it, throw out damage, and get aggro on something.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    Shadows. I dislike them. Aloth dies a lot because of them >_<. Also, my skellybro minions can never hit them >_>
  • TuthTuth Member Posts: 233
    The one tactic I used with shadows in the temple of Eothas is the Diablo-esque blocking at the door frame. I leave Aloth way back from the door and Eder standing to the side. My character (fighter) scouts ahead and lures the shadows. When they run after him, I tell him to run through the door frame and position him on the other side of the frame. So, Eder is to the right, my char to the left and Aloth way back. There is enough space for only one shadow to fit between the two fighters, who are flanking him and the rest is clumped on the other side of the frame and Aloth can deal aoe damage.

    Sometimes however the shadows are able to teleport behind fighters, but Aloth is still too far away, so it's still manageable. Just be careful with scouting ahead, use the environment to your advantage and use all the per encounter abilities. I managed to clear the temple without too many reloads. Though I still think the teleporting is a bit BS and I risked the disengagement attacks just to get my fighters near Aloth to save him.
  • StefanOStefanO Member Posts: 346
    edited March 2015
    Shadows don't like fire. At all. There is a room in the temple of Eothas with five shadows. I started this fight with Aloth rolling two fire balls into the room. After this my two tanks had no problem killing the shadows.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
    StefanO said:

    Shadows don't like fire. At all. There is a room in the temple of Eothas with five shadows. I started this fight with Aloth rolling two fire balls into the room. After this my two tanks had no problem killing the shadows.

    Interesting: a Fireball spell is a 3rd spell-level spell, available for wizards only when they reach the 5th level. I doubt it's a problem to kill shadows from the Temple of Eothas for a party with a 5th level wizard.

    Also, I wonder how it's possible to fire two fireballs by one party member before the actual battle starts and enemies begin to attack your party.
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