Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Why do you guys reroll (stats) so much?

HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
This discussion was created from comments split from: Fighter\Druid (And Import to BG2:EE).

After @DevilTyphoon said that he spent 4 hrs rolling stats for his Fighter/Druid (and he is by no means the exception, based on comments I've read in the past), it made me wonder... why do some of you spend so much effort rolling for 90+ stats, when it is so easy to just console or Keeper whatever you want?

GoturalJuliusBorisovkcwiseCrevsDaakBlackraven
«13

Comments

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    Haha, didn't you close that thread earlier today, @Heindrich?

    kcwiseCrevsDaak
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    @joluv lol I guess that was a little "de-railish", but it did lead on from OP saying that he spent 4 hrs rerolling. :wink:

    Anyway I don't think Keeper'ing stats in the way that I do can be considered cheating because I am not getting any metagame advantage from doing so, I am just avoiding stat-dumping and saving some time.

    Hmmm... to avoid further de-railing OP's original subject about Fighter/Druids, I'll split out a separate thread shortly.

    kcwiseCrevsDaak
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Hum I don't really know @Heindrich , I totally agree with you that in the end, keeper'ing a 100 roll isn't really cheating as I could get one manually and it saves a LOT of time.

    But still, something in my heart really wants me to roll the dices over and over again, it's like I'm more attached to my character afterward, I feel like I earned something.

    kcwiseDelvarianCrevsDaakBlackraven
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,769
    I usually spend ~5 minutes with re-rolling.
    If I wanted perfect stats, I'd just use ordinary cheats :X

    kcwiseCrevsDaak
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    I may have rolled at or above it once or twice (pretty much only with rangers or paladins), but otherwise I never Keeper my stats to be above 95, since that's what Sarevok has. I think it's cool to have Gorion's Ward with the same total to act as Sarevok's foil, but going beyond that feels indulgent.

    kcwiseCrevsDaakNaten
  • kiwidockiwidoc Member Posts: 1,373
    edited March 2015
    I look at the stats the rest of my party add up to in total, and I roll till I get something equal to or maybe a little better than them. It just feels like the reasonable thing to do. I don't use Keeper to get them as I don't think I have ever spent more than 10 minutes rolling for stats - and it was a chance to keep my mental arithmatic polished, but that's been spoiled.

    @Abi_Dalzim I like the way you think - that seems pretty reasonable to me as well.

    kcwiseCrevsDaak
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    I absolutely concur that it is mind-boggling to see people actively reroll stats for longer amounts of time; and by longer I mean anything above say 2 minutes. To think someone would spend HOURS...

    Is it just a lack of self control? If you have access to cheats, you'll actually cheat instead of using them as sensible shortcuts? Because there is no difference whatsoever from a "naturally" rolled stat total and one you Keepered in to be the same amount. Heck, you can have it even more convenient with the console, just CTRL+8 everything to 18 and subtract as needed, leaving the excess to be discarded.

    You will literally get the exact same result if you fix your stats manually vs. if you reroll them endlessly. The only difference is, you'll get an hour (or more...?!) of your life back.

    Most of you are adults. I'm sure you can handle the temptation of powerful tools.

    kcwiseCrevsDaakBlackraven
  • DevilTyphoonDevilTyphoon Member Posts: 39
    Because i can tell "I didn't cheat"....And i didn't rolled for 4 hours in a row obviously. I am not junkie..but 4 hours spread in all the day

    kcwiseSmilingSwordBlackraven
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Hmmm... interesting. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity guys.

    I guess my assumption that this behaviour had something to do with PnP rules was incorrect. I suppose I sort of appreciate the reward of getting a good roll "fair and square". I think I spent about 10mins rerolling the first character I made to get a 88 roll, (I missed a 90 due to clumsy fingers!) but that was before I learnt about console and keeper. :smile:

    Anyways to clarify, I am not taking sides here, I was just curious why some people did it.

    JuliusBorisovGotural
  • toolargtoolarg Member Posts: 178
    edited March 2015
    85 is the sweetspot for me for pretty much every class. Imoen has 87, Kagain 86, Dorn has NINETY ONE GODDAMN SON, so 85 with no dump stats and no min-maxing the core attributes makes sense to me within the context of the game. Also, when picking fighter I never go for 18/**, I always choose 17 as my max. Halfling fighters look cool with plate armor and two handers :tongue:

    Heindrichkcwise
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    Well, for a start I don't believe in using game aids like the keeper tools, or even the console (which is a debugging tool, not an integral part of the game experience.) Nor do I play with mods, I like to keep my experience 'pure'. If re-rolling were not such a simple, integral part of character generation, I would not do it - but it feels like a regular part of the game experience, and I am used to investing a few hours into character creation. Not just rolling the stats, but thinking about the personality, foibles and generally what it means to play this character - a habit from the P&P days.

    The other thing rolling does, even if I were to allow myself to keeper stats, is to grant me license to enjoy my power-gamery streak. What level of stats should I keeper my character to? Why not all 25s? What arbitrary limit should I pick? Rolling for hours will generally get me a low-mid 90s, which is overpowered but not crazy-overpowered, and 'earned'. Stats matter less as xp and kit accumulate anyway, but there is a satisfaction that comes from strutting around like a god. Back in AD&D 1E, it was clear that stats of 19 and above were essentially divine levels, and reserved for deities and demigods (the name of the rulebook that actually gave meaning to those numbers). Likewise, typically gods had stats that were all at least 19, with important stats for their area of expertise rising into the 20s, and only the rulers of pantheons like Zeus, Jupiter and Odin getting the 25s, or even majority 20s stats. With the Tomes, and later with Lum and the Hell trials, I can finish with some genuinely godly stats, which feels like part of the PC's journey.

    Back in the vanilla days, I played with duping the BG tomes with save/export, as that somehow felt legitimate while using the (undocumented) console did not. Luckily those days are far behind me now - although mainly as I know how trivial it is to 'cheat' my stats to arbitrary levels so there is nothing clever about doing it via in-game abuse. At least knowing about the console/keeper has freed me from the temptation to even larger excesses of stats!

    Heindrichhisplskcwise
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Isn't it simply that cheating is cheating and not cheating is not cheating?

    GreenWyvernkcwise
  • DevilTyphoonDevilTyphoon Member Posts: 39
    Heindrich said:

    Hmmm... interesting. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity guys.

    I guess my assumption that this behaviour had something to do with PnP rules was incorrect. I suppose I sort of appreciate the reward of getting a good roll "fair and square". I think I spent about 10mins rerolling the first character I made to get a 88 roll, (I missed a 90 due to clumsy fingers!) but that was before I learnt about console and keeper. :smile:

    Anyways to clarify, I am not taking sides here, I was just curious why some people did it.

    " I suppose I sort of appreciate the reward of getting a good roll "fair and square"---------> This

    kcwise
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,308
    For those that do: I would imagine that the greater the personal effort that goes into rolling, the greater the sense of investment in building the character. The character is then experienced as more valuable.

    Ironically, I have found that mains with less than uber stats still perform well enough to thoroughly enjoy the game.

    kcwiseBlackraven
  • GreenWyvernGreenWyvern Member Posts: 247
    There's a certain satisfaction of rerolling a high number that cheating doesn't compensate for. Though you could argue the content feeling of rolling over a long period of time and getting a good number is somewhat stale, you can't argue that there are people whom enjoy it. Such as with gambling addictions, you get quite a buzz when you roll a good number, which is only made worse by the fact we have the ability to store our current number, and continue rolling. When someone wins at a slot machine, most are tempted to try "just a few more times", and after several failures, they continue playing, trying to make up for their losses. In this case, there are no losses, but a feeling on wanting to get one better than what was previously obtained. When you cheat, there's no feeling like you DID anything to deserve those numbers, no matter how monotonous getting the numbers in vanilla actually is.

    Personally, I only roll for, as @Buttercheese mentioned, about five minutes. I'm alright with settling for a 92, I mean, it feels like I'm cheesing the game enough at THAT! But, alas, I'm much more comfortable with cheesing the game, rather than cheating it. Just my personal preference.

    Everyone is different!

    GreenWarlockSkatankcwise
  • JoshBGJoshBG Member Posts: 91
    edited March 2015
    Usually, I'm rolling for the specific sum, for the specific character I have in mind at that moment. I will not use the additional points if the roll is higher than needed.

    I may roll just for the sake of rolling, but it's for amusement(I'm a gambler by nature).

    kcwise
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    Wowo said:

    Isn't it simply that cheating is cheating and not cheating is not cheating?

    How is it cheating when you get the exact same result? Do you honestly believe that sitting there for an hour clicking 1 button is an achievement that should be required in order to get the total you want? Especially when it's 100% a matter of luck and 0% a matter of skill?

    Is taking the bus instead of walking also "cheating" to get to a destination?

    kcwise
  • GreenWyvernGreenWyvern Member Posts: 247
    edited March 2015

    How is it cheating when you get the exact same result?

    Because cheating is breaking the rules of the game, usually for your own beneficial purpose. Rerolling is an optional function in the game, the rules say it's okay. Setting the numbers yourself is not.

    Do you honestly believe that sitting there for an hour clicking 1 button is an achievement that should be required in order to get the total you want

    Irrelevant to weather it is cheating to go around this or not. Rerolling until you get what you want is an optional mechanic, and no matter if you like it or not, it's there.

    Especially when it's 100% a matter of luck and 0% a matter of skill?

    It takes skill to click reroll really fast, and not skip over the really high results. Should you cheat so you always land critical hits, to save time on reloading when you don't?

    Is taking the bus instead of walking also "cheating" to get to a destination?

    No, it's not cheating. You need to earn the money for bus fare, while walking is free. It may be slower, but once again, it' the rules of life. Cheating would be if you increased your walking speed to 2000% by means that break the laws of physics.

    kcwise
  • GreenWyvernGreenWyvern Member Posts: 247
    When it comes to "it's not cheating because it's unfair", then you're relying on people's morals.

    Cheat:
    "Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination." - Google

    Using this definition, something like exploiting a glitch could be considered dishonest, due to the fact you're ignoring the intended purpose of whatever you're breaking, or it could be considered "how the game functions, so it's fair game". When it comes to editing stats in a third-party editor, most people would consider this to be unfair.

    Though, who says cheating is bad?

    Who are you hurting? If you morally think that using EE Keeper to edit the stats instead of spending forever rerolling is alright, then there should be no problem in doing so. If you morally think that using EE Keeper is too cheaty, then alright, no problem there. [Now, if you're cheating in something like Poker, against real people, you have a problem... unless, that is, everyone you're playing with agrees cheating is an acceptable rule!]

    kcwise
  • GreenWyvernGreenWyvern Member Posts: 247
    edited March 2015
    So, in conclusion:

    - Using EE Keeper to edit stats is techincally cheating
    - Cheating isn't bad, unless it goes against your own morals, or hurts somebody unfairly.

    Heck, I cheated a dead cat into the beginning of BGII:EE because I couldn't let go of good ol' "Stinky"! I'm playing multiplayer with AlbinoWyvern, and she said it was alright for me to do this, so I'm not hurting anybody in the process of wasting an inventory slot.

    ...

    Ahh, this is all what I think, anyways. I'm no authority on this stuff!

    kcwise
Sign In or Register to comment.