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Who in their right mind...?

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Comments

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,827
    Even an evil character has no reason to release Kangaxx. The problem is not that the player is unleashing an evil into the world; the problem is that the player is exposing themselves to huge danger.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    This question never made much sense to me.

    Do you realise just how many mages are playing you, tricking you, or otherwise betray you when you do work for them? There are maybe three that don't mess you around somehow.

    Not only would your average CHARNAME be well aware of this fact, they would expect it. They built half their career in doing things for mages, being betrayed, then collecting secondary rewards from their corpse. Why should Kangaxx be any different? Walk up, wait for him to betray you, collect your- Wait, why's his head still moving?

    At which point it's time to cast up Spell Immunity and the Daystar you picked up from the other badly-hidden lich and save the world. Again.

    semiticgoddessGallowglassNotabarbiegirl
  • GandaGanda Member Posts: 35

    Even an evil character has no reason to release Kangaxx. The problem is not that the player is unleashing an evil into the world; the problem is that the player is exposing themselves to huge danger.

    Kangaxx tells you that he will give you a reward if you help him.

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  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,827
    @Ganda: I suppose a very gullible or very curious character would have reason to free Kangaxx, somebody who would believe an eerie skull emanating dread and evilness should be given his body back.

    Ganda
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    Regardless of alignment, I can really only see very low wisdom characters doing the Kangaxx quest.

    BelgarathMTHsemiticgoddessGanda
  • GandaGanda Member Posts: 35
    edited January 2016

    @Ganda: I suppose a very gullible or very curious character would have reason to free Kangaxx, somebody who would believe an eerie skull emanating dread and evilness should be given his body back.

    Or very greedy

    @atcDave Wisdom is often my dump stat
    Being evil in BG in general isn't very wise.

    @subtledoctor not because you on the same team, more like the offer of a reward tempts greedy evil Charname and he/she doesn't care about the potential damage to the realm it may cause.

    atcDave
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    Ganda
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Your protagonist doesn't know how dangerous Kangaxx is.

    If your party has destroyed the two guardian liches with no great difficulty, then they may well be thinking that Kangaxx will just be more of the same, maybe a little tougher but probably within their ability to tackle. So they go ahead and release him, expecting treachery but also expecting to win. (Of course, they might turn out to be wrong about that.)

    GrumGandaJuliusBorisovNotabarbiegirl
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,827
    The other liches do hint that they are there to contain Kangaxx. If he had to be contained, he's probably pretty dangerous. If it took two liches to do it, he's probably pretty strong. And judging by the description of the Golden Arm and Leg and Golden Torso, both of which radiate evil, he probably isn't nice. Charname knows he is dangerous. Charname knows he is evil. Charname knows he is strong.

    Charname might not know exactly how dangerous Kangaxx could be, but they know he's going to be more dangerous than the last two liches. And there aren't many parties that could easily handle the previous liches--how many of us survived their encounters with liches when they first saw them in BG2?

    From an RP perspective, bringing out the second lich would be a bad idea, as the last lich fight got you nothing of value (what use is that Golden Torso?) and came with extreme risk. Bringing out a third lich that sounds even stronger, after you've already put your life in danger twice, is an even worse idea.

    The only reason most of us open those coffins is either because we know we can always reload, or because we know how to win it, having already fought the battle before.

    atcDaveGoturalGandaJuliusBorisov
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Well, no, @semiticgod, I don't see it that way.

    If the party had trouble with the guardian liches, then indeed they ought to realise that this next guy might be too hot to handle ... and if my party is in that position, then my RP is that they walk away until later (which usually means "I'll leave that until Chapter 6").

    However, if they rolled over the guardian liches pretty easily, then your party is strong and dangerous. Yes, they'll realise that Kangaxx is probably also strong and dangerous ... but they might well feel sufficiently confident to give it a go. After all, adventurers tend to be risk-takers.

    GoturalGandaJuliusBorisov
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,827
    @Gallowglass: Liches are not enemies that people roll over easily, unless you've already played the game several times or have read enough online to know how to fight liches. Charname has no advance knowledge of the encounter. Charname is you on your first run of the game. No meta knowledge, no foresight, and no experience with this fight.

    The first time you fought a BG2 lich, did you beat the lich easily? Because I did not. I died before I could even land a hit against the lich.

    Liches are among the most powerful critters in the Forgotten Realms. If Charname wins a fight against a lich, he or she probably did not win that fight easily. They likely came out of it bloody and battered.

    Liches are only easy for people who have already fought them many times before.

    EmpyrialGandaJuliusBorisovNotabarbiegirl
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Growing up in Candlekeep is like growing up surrounded by meta gaming knowledge. I'm sure some smart Charnames read up on the ABCs of liche killing

    GoturalGandadeltago
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,827
    @Grum: Charname would also know enough to steer clear of them!

    atcDaveGoturalGanda
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100

    @Grum: Charname would also know enough to steer clear of them!

    Not my Charname!

    Also I like to think that certain classes of Charnames got anti-Mage lessons.

    For example, my inquisitor Charname was RPd not as a paladin, but as Candlekeep special forces. A warrior trained to handle unruly mages. I'm sure he'd be taught what you need to do to handle a dangerous Mage.

    My swashbuckler-fighter had 100% detect illusions. That came from extensive study into the defenses of mages.

    My fighter-Mage had magical dueling partners along with physical ones where he was allowed to practice with scrolls. That, and he was allowed to watch the more senior students actually spar.

    Many different kinds of Charnames could get training

    And why wouldn't a low wisdom hard read everything and anything, especially things that are forbidden?

    semiticgoddessGoturalGanda
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Early in the game, at lower levels, yes ... but I can't remember ever finding ordinary liches much of a threat to a high-ish level party. If you leave the Kangaxx quest to Chapter 6 (as I often do), then indeed you should be able to brush aside the guardian liches easily, because by then you've got the levels and you've got the right tools ... so then it's credible that the party feels confident enough to try facing Kangaxx.

    Of course, if you don't know what to expect, then Kangaxx's demi-lich form will be a big surprise and might wipe you out. Even so, far from necessarily, because the party will realise that whoever appears will probably be some sort of undead, and will therefore quite likely have someone standing up front with the Improved Mace of Disruption, which can kill even the demi-lich on the first blow.

    As for what happened when I first met a lich in BG2 ... that was a long time ago and I may be mis-remembering, but I think I nailed him with Azuredge on the first blow, without even yet realising that liches are meant to be tough opponents.

    Ganda
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  • GandaGanda Member Posts: 35

    The bigger issue here is, these liches should actually be powerful and dangerous, instead of pathetic wimps who can be cheesed steamrolled by a level 9 berserker or inquisitor. They should have powerful spells and good AI. Berserking should not protect from Imprisonment. Scrolls of protection from undead/magic should work like the Shadow Dragon charm: you're safe as long as you don't break the magic by attacking the creature.

    Just goes to a point I made elsewhere, Bioware could code a decent game but when it comes to D&D they were terrible DMs.

    That's not entirely fair, on first play-through there are plenty of things that are extremely dangerous. Basing a game on a complex system like D&D means that cheese will always be found because there are so many loopholes, in fact that is one of the things that endears me to the game.
    Besides, BG2 came out what 15 years ago? Every games AI could be cheesed back then, most AI's can be cheesed without that much difficulty today.

    I do totally agree with the scrolls of undead should work as per the Shadow Dragon charm, having said that I can't remember ever using a scroll of undead in 20 years of playing BG/BG2, not because I think they are OP, I partly forgot I had one and partly didn't need it (although I died many times to undead).

    semiticgoddess
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    semiticgoddessGanda
  • GandaGanda Member Posts: 35
    Fair enough. I know practically nothing about D&D/PnP other than BG and some mild reading around it, so I guess I take the game as it comes.
    Got me playing and talking about nearly 20 years after release so I'm not going to complain much.

    As for what is wrong with the game, there's probably a mod for that.

    [Deleted User]
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,180
    Ganda said:

    Basing a game on a complex system like D&D means that cheese will always be found because there are so many loopholes, in fact that is one of the things that endears me to the game.

    This.

    People seem to often forget that this game was never intended to be an exact duplication of D&D rules. It was meant to be an adaptation of them. I suppose it is like going to see a movie that was based on a book. If you read the book first and then expect the movie to be exactly like the book you are bound to be disappointed. The Devs of Bioware had to build an engine from scratch and then adapt that engine to various games that they made throughout the years. They never intended to implement every last aspect of D&D in their games so they had to cut huge chunks of rules out (psionics for instance). Then they had to adapt the rules they were going to use into a system that actually worked. They also couldn't make the game too hard as that would cut down on the enjoyment factor of many people. D&D can be a harsh system that is not very forgiving to new players and to make the Infinity Engine equally unforgiving would have likely been a mistake. All these things could not have made the creation and use of the Infinity Engine an easy task and yet I, at least, think they did extremely well considering what they had to do. There were bound to be some bugs in the system, but overall things worked out quite well.
    Ganda said:

    That's not entirely fair, on first play-through there are plenty of things that are extremely dangerous.

    This as well.

    Most of us here are experienced veterans of numerous playthroughs of the games. I think we often forget how jarringly hard it can be for someone who is playing for the first time. I have heard of quite a few people who have given up because they thought it was too hard or learning the rules was too hard. Watching my mom, aunt, and uncle play through their own runs and make countless mistakes serves to remind me how incredibly difficult the games can be for those who are still learning the ropes. Heck, even veterans like my brother and even, to a lesser extent, I myself can still make plenty of mistakes.

    Regardless of all that, this discussion is getting a bit off topic and I would prefer it to get back to the topic.

    semiticgoddessGandaJuliusBorisovGallowglass
  • GandaGanda Member Posts: 35
    edited January 2016
    Tresset said:


    Regardless of all that, this discussion is getting a bit off topic and I would prefer it to get back to the topic.

    True that, sorry for getting off topic.

    So who in their right mind would reconstruct Kangaxx?

    To me the threads conclusions point towards a low wisdom, high level, gullible, extremely curious, evil and/or greedy Charname, not all characteristics needed but more would probably help.

    And someone with all those characteristics would probably be judged by others to not be in their right mind.

    From an RP point of view perhaps:

    - A character with low wisdom.
    - Most people playing BG end up with a Charname who turns out to be pretty greedy, just look at the wealth in items and gold they amass at others expense.
    - I'd say my Charname on first few playthroughs was extremely curious, however I did have the safety of Level 20 spell 'reload game'.
    - A chaotic evil Charname who did not care about the chaos and death they unleashed (believing in Kangaxx's reward).
    - Waiting until chapter 6 and being so high level you feel you can take out anyone.

    atcDave
  • OnestepOnestep Member Posts: 225
    You could just roleplay CHARNAME as aware that Kangaxx is almost certainly evil, but fully intending to take him down for good.

    Ganda
  • simplessimples Member Posts: 540
    yeah only a demilich's form has eight soul gems on it, they count as the phylactery. destroy the soul gems, destroy the demilich for good.

    GoturalGanda
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    The RP reason for going after Kangaax and his two buddies is

    MONEY.

    The game gives you the reason, you need lots of money to rescue Imoen. So you go round opening every chest and door and take a load of jobs to earn money.

    And as it is BG2 and follows from BG, you have learnt that the way to make money is to kill stuff, nick stuff, explore places.
    You have also learnt that good equipment costs lots of money and good equipment keeps you alive and helps you fight.

    It could be equally asked, why do Firewine, why do any areas in BG except for the main narrative.

    Just think back to when you first played the game and the sheer delight of being able to afford a plus 1 weapon or finding one.
    It actually doesn't take much RP to "be" Charname when you first start in Candlekeep because of the way the game starts and throws you in at the deep end with that wolf in the first area.
    Remember how delighted you were to see Xzar and Monty, and he gave you potions!!!!!!

    So as Charname, you have learnt your lessons, you need lots of money and good equipment and the sure fire way of getting lots of money and good equipment is to do everything, explore everywhere.

    I wasn't on the internet when BG came out, not for quite a few years. It's only this last year I read about spell immunity abjuration, still managed to kill Kangaax though.

    BillyYankNotabarbiegirl
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