Yes, Gesen is very good. The only downside is that you get it fairly late in the game, whereas Firetooth is available almost immediately. There's nothing wrong with pooling all your money to buy it asap, it's one of the best early game investments if not the best
@MalacPok: They're great in combination, as @semiticgod suggested. A level 9 Archer with the Tuigan Bow under Improved Haste can stack two Called Shots to bring an enemy's Save vs. Spell down by 18 in a single round. Anything that's still alive after that onslaught of arrows is then very vulnerable to the mage. By comparison, casting Greater Malison and Doom occupies two casters, those spells can be blocked by magic resistance, and strong late-game enemies are still very likely to make their saves.
Archers can also attack with Darts of Stunning while Called Shot is active, and the effect is quite cruel. Every hit from the darts forces the target to make a save vs. spell or be stunned. And every hit lowers that exact same saving throw by 1.
Yes, Gesen is very good. The only downside is that you get it fairly late in the game, whereas Firetooth is available almost immediately. There's nothing wrong with pooling all your money to buy it asap, it's one of the best early game investments if not the best
This is very true. My perspective is somewhat warped by my utter refusal to touch Watcher's Keep in any way before TOB, but I realize most people don't play that way. So yes, unless you're playing under weird constraints, Firetooth is available much earlier.
I'm thinking of giving the archer a try for a solo run. I wonder whether to focus on shortbows or crossbows? The firetooth is great, but it's also very slow.
If you run solo, you'll have enough pips to max both in no time.
I usually start with Crossbows because you can buy the Army Scythe right off the bat, but Tuigan is also available very easily so it's not really a big argument. I just like crossbows a lot I guess, especially with bolts of lightning...
Either is fine to start with, I suppose. Short bows is possibly slightly better, objectively speaking, but again, you'll be GM in both very quickly.
@Lord_Tansheron : I said that archer was a support rather than a damage dealer lategame simply because they have that utility aspect from called shot and the Gesen/Firetooth+normal bolt which a melee warrior cannot have. Their aim lategame is not to deal 250 damages in one round like a melee warrior would do with GWW, it is to disrupt mages/render useless warriors due to the fore-mentionned abilities.
@MalacPok : I got two points to answer that: 1ST, the game does not start with ToB. Archers are real beast early on. 2nd, mages and archers are both very good support, they just do not aim the same goal. A mage is there to dispel enemy protections and buffs, an archer tries to render useless warriors and disrupt mages. In fact, the archer is made to counter enemies while the mage is made to help your team. I am unsure I am very clear. But basically, having a mage and an archer is not uselessly cumulating supports. They are really complementary.
I'm not sure whether the whole "support" thing isn't overstated a bit. Hitting mages with damage does interrupt them, but does that equal "support"? You are hitting them with everything you've got. It just so happens to also interrupt them.
And "render warriors useless"? What on earth survives long enough after a full volley of Called Shots for the debuffed STR to actually matter? Couldn't you just as well kill them with damage, considering that fighter-types are unlikely to have defenses that stop Archer damage in the first place? Or are you talking bosses here specifically?
For me "support" always implies a trade-off compared to a pure damage dealer; you willingly choose less damage potential to improve the damage potential of other characters, e.g. when rolling with a pure mage, or a Bard, or whatever. Or I guess you could expand the definition to "abilities that don't (primarily) deal damage, but improve the performance of characters" - does Called Shot alone warrant calling an Archer "support" then? While it's certainly useful, I've never viewed it as a primary ability - more of icing on top of good damage, something that just happens incidentally. Offhand I can't remember an enemy where CS would significantly change the fight. Can you give an example, maybe? Ascension Yaga-Shura in the final battle maybe?
I'm not a big friend of labels to begin with, but calling an Archer "support" when they'll end up with a huge number of kills and proportion of damage dealt just seems misleading to me. Archers are damage dealers supreme, it's just that other classes catch up later on. Are you calling fighters "support" for all of early game, then? Doesn't make much sense, does it.
@Lord_Tansheron: Damage dealers early on. Later in the game, they gain a support role due to lowering enemy saving throws, which improves your party's spellcasting by making your spells more effective.
Yes I realize that they can DO that, but does that make them "support"? Archers are still dealing very good damage against most enemies. Just because they're not as good as the guys with FoA+5 and Foebane+5 doesn't mean that suddenly they become debuffers.
Not to mention that lowering saving throws is probably one of the least relevant effects of Called Shot. What are you going to use that requires a save? Hardly worth gambling on binary hit/miss spells, and for most others missing a save is only a minor bonus.
Just because you're not top damage doesn't mean you're "support". You're just not top damage.
"Just because you're not top damage doesn't mean you're "support". You're just not top damage."
This is true. Lower relative damage does not make an Archer a support character. What makes it a supporting character is the save penalty. Does the save penalty make a difference?
"Not to mention that lowering saving throws is probably one of the least relevant effects of Called Shot. What are you going to use that requires a save? Hardly worth gambling on binary hit/miss spells, and for most others missing a save is only a minor bonus."
Let's take some numbers.
A single casting of Called Shot can drop the target's save vs. spells by up to 20.
Not 2. Not 5. Not 10. Twenty.
CS lasts 2 rounds, and at the maximum APR, it will hit 20 times before it runs out. And the save vs. spell penalty takes 15 seconds to run out. Now, if you look at the files for creatures in ToB, including the Five, basically nobody has a save vs. spell of less than 6, the minimum base value for high-level warriors. So, if you use Called Shot and have high APR, you can literally guarantee a failed save.
Not INCREASE the chance of a failed save. GUARANTEE a failed save.
This of course is the maximum. On average, the save penalty would be somewhat lower, depending on the circumstances. An Archer in Chapter 2 could only drop the target's save by 10, or a little less than that depending on your timing. But it does say something about the Archer's role as a supporting character that it can guarantee a failed save on virtually any character in the game.
What difference does this make, though, really? Well, it means you can literally double the chance of a target failing the save. If your target makes its save on a 7 or higher, then an Archer can change that to 13 or higher. In fact, depending on your timing and APR, an Archer could actually TRIPLE the chance of a failed save. But let's say double the chance to be conservative.
This is what I mean when I say the Archer is a good supporting character.
It supports mages by empowering their spells. It empowers mages by lowering the enemy's save vs. spells. How much does it empower them? It can make a spell anywhere from 25% to 200% more powerful, depending on your timing.
In short: -Two mages cast two Feeblemind spells. Feeblemind: 30% chance of success -One mage and one Archer cast ONE Feeblemind spell. Feeblemind: 60% chance of success.
Not to mention that lowering saving throws is probably one of the least relevant effects of Called Shot. What are you going to use that requires a save? Hardly worth gambling on binary hit/miss spells, and for most others missing a save is only a minor bonus.
@joluv Could you give some example spells you think are worth using? I strongly dislike binary spells (i.e. save = bust) and rarely if ever use them. That in turn means I don't have too much experience with them, so it's very possible I'm just missing something.
In short: -Two mages cast two Feeblemind spells. Feeblemind: 30% chance of success -One mage and one Archer cast ONE Feeblemind spell. Feeblemind: 60% chance of success.
This is what is meant by "support."
Yes, I understand that. But once you're wailing on someone with an Archer long enough to stack the CS penatly high enough, isn't almost anything already dead at that point? Or nearly dead? I suppose it might be different in NM mode...
Either way, I still think this isn't "support", it's just an incidental benefit. There is no trade-off happening anywhere. Your shots deal the exact same damage, they just also do something else. It's even instant cast. That's kinda like saying a fighter is support because of GWW killing things more quickly, or because of an elemental weapon interrupting a mage through SS - but that's also all just incidental.
EDIT: Also, I still wouldn't want to waste time with Feeblemind at 60% - and that's WITH setup by an Archer? Does not seem efficient at all.
@Lord_Tansheron: Binary spells are quite practical even in no-reload runs where you have to assume bad luck. Making a saving throw ruins some spells, but the payoff when they work is quite high, and if you use several of them, you can expect a high chance of success.
As for examples... I don't know about @joluv, but if I were to single out some of the best, assuming we're using Called Shot: Mage spells: Blindness, Spook, Web, Glitterdust, Ray of Enfeeblement, Slow, Emotion, Chaos, Feeblemind, Symbol: Stun Cleric spells: Hold Person, Silence 15' Radius, Greater Command, Blade Barrier, Globe of Blades
The Called Shot save penalty also empowers Celestial Fury, Kuo-toa Bolts, and Jan's flashers.
But we're talking about late in the game, right? Are you seriously running around ToB using Blindness and Hold Person? Might just be my playstyle, but honestly I'd rather not waste a round of spellcasting to MAYBE hit a CC on someone, when I could just go and use that time to get their HP down and kill them more quickly.
And to have an Archer pelt them a good few times before I do it? That just seems like such a poor plan. What on earth wouldn't be on their way to dead by the time the debuffing is finished? Bosses? Bosses that are likely immune to things like Hold Person, Blindness, etc. anyway? Is there a ToB boss susceptible to any of these effects? I'm not being snarky here, I honestly don't know because I never use these spells.
@Lord_Tansheron: Part of my list of spells was directed at early game issues, yes. The save penalty comes in early on, and is useful from the start. But I should address ToB. Message in spoilers to avoid cluttering the thread.
It's true that, by the time you hit a monster with 20 arrows, it's usually already dead. But you don't have to get 20 shots in for -20 to save vs. spell before you hit your target with Feeblemind (unless your target is an SCS2 dragon, for example). It's like the complaint about Wizard Slayers' spell failure on hit isn't useful. By the time you get in 10 hits and your target has 100% spell failure, the battle is already over! True, but after two hits, you've got 20%, another three and it's 50%, and you don't have to get your enemy to 100% spell failure before they start losing spells. Even the lower numbers are significant. I only mention the crazy numbers for Called Shot (-20 penalty to save vs. spell) to illustrate the potential. You can lower one enemy's save by 5, then do the same for another three. All four get only lightly injured, but they also are all much more vulnerable to Chaos. The Archer can kill one enemy or help disable four, whichever is more useful to you.
As for bosses... I don't believe any bosses are immune to Ray of Enfeeblement, which works very nicely with Called Shot, both because of the save penalty and the STR drain. Nor are bosses immune to Globe of Blades, and save penalties will empower that spell as well, as well as non-binary damage spells like Horrid Wilting.
I think one of the Five, and Melissan herself, is immune to 1st- and 2nd-level spells (and another member of the Five, plus Melissan, is immune to 3rd-level spells), and of course Liches and Rakshasas also have spell level immunities, so there are some people immune to Ray of Enfeeblement because of its low level. But nobody in vanilla or SCS2, nor I believe even Tactics, is immune to the STR modifier. If my memory is correct, even plot-related enemies, who get immunities to all kinds of stuff, are vulnerable to Blindness and Slow.
In a word, not all disablers will always work. But for all but a handful of battles, lowering the enemy's save vs. spell will empower at least one option at your disposal, whether it's a Blindness spell against a low-level cleric, an Emotion spell against a mid-level mage, a Feeblemind spell against a dragon, a Sunray against a Lich, Celestial Fury against a Pit Fiend, or Globe of Blades against a boss.
If you concentrate on the enemy's immunities, then saving throws are naturally going to seem irrelevant, and pure damage always seems like the best option. But if you think about their vulnerabilities, it's easier to see the potential behind low- or no-damage options like Called Shot.
So we're talking enemies highly resistant to missiles/piercing now? Because that, too, mostly applies to bosses (or irrelevant things like skeletons).
I do absolutely agree that the stat drain is a nice thing to have. Very few if any mobs are immune to it, and you can use it to kill even things that are supposed to be unkillable (e.g. Arkanis Gath). Sold.
But the save penalty? I remain highly skeptical on that one. At early game, practically nothing will survive taking hits from an Archer - if you can hit it, you can kill it, and quickly.
The only enemy that comes to my mind with lots of HP is Firkraag, but he also has a ton of magic resistance which you'd need to lower. So you'd have to stand there getting off what, 3+ Lower Resistance spells (he has 65 magic resistance)? He has a save vs. spells of 6, making your spell a 30% to hit. Firkraag also has a base AC of -11, meaning not all your shots will actually hit. Let's say you get 5 Called Shots in (which is a decent hit rate for early level) that puts you at 55% chance to hit with the spell. That is still fairly low, and will require several tries to actually hit - within the small window of CS being applies, or with reloads, meaning everything all over again. That just does not seem efficient to me. Going in there and fighting will work a lot more than a mere 55% of the time. [that's my Firkraag anyway, which admittedly is buffed by mods]
Either way, that STILL doesn't make an Archer "support". The fact that some enemies are resistant to missiles, and that one or two bosses may be better taken out by stat-drain shots does not relegate a primary damage dealer to a different role. That's like saying all fighters are "support" because all they do against stoneskinned mages is sneak in elemental-damage interrupts. Obviously not the case.
And btw, while the Wizard Slayer analogy seems fitting, do keep in mind that a WS specifically targets mages - the enemies that are both the most difficult to hit in the first place, and the ones that tend to have lower than average HP (meaning hits you DO get in kill them quickly). That's a systemic issue that not only doesn't translate to Archers, but is basically the OPPOSITE of how it is for them. The time an Archer would most want to actually go for CS stat drain is against enemies they can hit but deal little damage against.
[P.S.: Found something interesting. Firkraag has a mere 3 WIS - that means that just TWO missed saves against Kachiko's Wakizashi would kill him dead! Fun.]
@Lord_Tansheron: This is getting repetitive. You asked me how an Archer could serve as a support role. I said it did so by making other characters' spells more effective. That is the answer to your question. An Archer is
1: A damage dealer
2: A support character
It is both of these things. Sometimes (sometimes!) an Archer will simply kill the enemy. That is what I mean by a damage dealer. Other times (other times!), it will disable it before the enemy dies. That is what I mean by a support character.
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You seem skeptical that an Archer is more of a support character than a damage dealer. You are quite right. It is not. When I say it's a support character, what I mean is NOT that its PRIMARY role is to empower the other party members. Its primary role is indeed to deal damage. When I say it is a support character, I mean that it can empower the other party members.
How does it empower them? It lowers enemy saves. Therefore, it is a support character, because the party's spells are more effective. The Archer supports the mage's function. The Archer is supporting the mage. It is a supporting character. Perhaps you have a different definition of party support, but my definition is that one character does something to make the other characters more effective (Haste, Called Shot) or harder to kill (Death Ward, Defensive Harmony).
Tansheron, I know the Archer is primarily a damage dealer. I have played them many times and can attest to their ability to kill stuff. No one is disputing that. I know the Archer is also a supporting character. I have played them many times and can attest to their ability to strengthen disablers.
I cannot tell from your posts. Are you skeptical that the Archer is a supporting character? Are you skeptical that an Archer is PRIMARILY a supporting character? Or are you using a different definition of support than I am?
Honestly, while I appreciate the potential power of Called Shot, I generally found that things died before the penalties could stack to substantial levels. That feels to indicate more of a damage role than a support role to me, but it'd also be a tad silly to say that Called Shot isn't fantastic support just because it also kills things.
@semiticgod I think the issue is more one of definitions. You say an archers is a "support character", I would not go that far. At best, CS is a "support skill" rather than a pure damage skill, or it could be called "utility" instead to go with a more wide-spread convention.
The fact that abilities of party members can have synergistic effects is no big surprise, but that doesn't make the associated characters "support characters". A support character is, at least in my book, one that explicitly makes a trade-off in some respect in order to benefit the performance of the party; e.g. a pure mage (low single target damage for great buffs/debuffs), or a bard (low damage in general for party buffs), or a pure cleric (lower attack damage for buffs/heals), etc.
If you expanded the definition to give a "support role" to every character with an ability that somehow benefits other characters, you'd quickly dilute the term to meaninglessness because pretty much anything can fit that (fighter stunning someone with a HLA/weapon? Support! - your other melee will now hit the target better).
But I see that we agree on the general use and power of the Archer, so perhaps we should not derail this discussion further with the minutiae of terminology.
@Lord_Tansheron: I'd classify stunning the enemy as a "disabler" rather than a support character... another definiton quibble. But you're right about the terminology thing. A lot of times, discussions get over-long because of different definitons rather than different opinions. Best to clarify our terms to avoid this sort of thing, but I think we've already done that. Agreed.
Wow, I missed so much. I think @semiticgod and @Jarrakul have already covered most of what I would say, so let me just add that Called Shot effects work through Stoneskin, which means the effects often stack up to useful levels before an enemy has taken much damage.
Doing the archer solo right now. It seems fun so far. My main strategy involves summoning a clone (Vhalior's Helm) who starts out with another summon using the Efreeti bottle. While the enemies are hitting the poor guy, the twins are shooting with their Tuigans towards them. Got the haste boots too, so it should be smooth sailing from this point onwards. ToB will be a pain though...
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In my parties, they usually get a considerable number of kills for quite some time. Like, #1 not close for most of early game.
I usually start with Crossbows because you can buy the Army Scythe right off the bat, but Tuigan is also available very easily so it's not really a big argument. I just like crossbows a lot I guess, especially with bolts of lightning...
Either is fine to start with, I suppose. Short bows is possibly slightly better, objectively speaking, but again, you'll be GM in both very quickly.
@MalacPok : I got two points to answer that:
1ST, the game does not start with ToB. Archers are real beast early on.
2nd, mages and archers are both very good support, they just do not aim the same goal. A mage is there to dispel enemy protections and buffs, an archer tries to render useless warriors and disrupt mages. In fact, the archer is made to counter enemies while the mage is made to help your team. I am unsure I am very clear. But basically, having a mage and an archer is not uselessly cumulating supports. They are really complementary.
And "render warriors useless"? What on earth survives long enough after a full volley of Called Shots for the debuffed STR to actually matter? Couldn't you just as well kill them with damage, considering that fighter-types are unlikely to have defenses that stop Archer damage in the first place? Or are you talking bosses here specifically?
For me "support" always implies a trade-off compared to a pure damage dealer; you willingly choose less damage potential to improve the damage potential of other characters, e.g. when rolling with a pure mage, or a Bard, or whatever.
Or I guess you could expand the definition to "abilities that don't (primarily) deal damage, but improve the performance of characters" - does Called Shot alone warrant calling an Archer "support" then? While it's certainly useful, I've never viewed it as a primary ability - more of icing on top of good damage, something that just happens incidentally. Offhand I can't remember an enemy where CS would significantly change the fight. Can you give an example, maybe? Ascension Yaga-Shura in the final battle maybe?
I'm not a big friend of labels to begin with, but calling an Archer "support" when they'll end up with a huge number of kills and proportion of damage dealt just seems misleading to me. Archers are damage dealers supreme, it's just that other classes catch up later on. Are you calling fighters "support" for all of early game, then? Doesn't make much sense, does it.
Damage early, support late.
Not to mention that lowering saving throws is probably one of the least relevant effects of Called Shot. What are you going to use that requires a save? Hardly worth gambling on binary hit/miss spells, and for most others missing a save is only a minor bonus.
Just because you're not top damage doesn't mean you're "support". You're just not top damage.
"Just because you're not top damage doesn't mean you're "support". You're just not top damage."
This is true. Lower relative damage does not make an Archer a support character. What makes it a supporting character is the save penalty. Does the save penalty make a difference?
"Not to mention that lowering saving throws is probably one of the least relevant effects of Called Shot. What are you going to use that requires a save? Hardly worth gambling on binary hit/miss spells, and for most others missing a save is only a minor bonus."
Let's take some numbers.
A single casting of Called Shot can drop the target's save vs. spells by up to 20.
Not 2. Not 5. Not 10. Twenty.
CS lasts 2 rounds, and at the maximum APR, it will hit 20 times before it runs out. And the save vs. spell penalty takes 15 seconds to run out. Now, if you look at the files for creatures in ToB, including the Five, basically nobody has a save vs. spell of less than 6, the minimum base value for high-level warriors. So, if you use Called Shot and have high APR, you can literally guarantee a failed save.
Not INCREASE the chance of a failed save. GUARANTEE a failed save.
This of course is the maximum. On average, the save penalty would be somewhat lower, depending on the circumstances. An Archer in Chapter 2 could only drop the target's save by 10, or a little less than that depending on your timing. But it does say something about the Archer's role as a supporting character that it can guarantee a failed save on virtually any character in the game.
What difference does this make, though, really? Well, it means you can literally double the chance of a target failing the save. If your target makes its save on a 7 or higher, then an Archer can change that to 13 or higher. In fact, depending on your timing and APR, an Archer could actually TRIPLE the chance of a failed save. But let's say double the chance to be conservative.
This is what I mean when I say the Archer is a good supporting character.
It supports mages by empowering their spells. It empowers mages by lowering the enemy's save vs. spells. How much does it empower them? It can make a spell anywhere from 25% to 200% more powerful, depending on your timing.
In short:
-Two mages cast two Feeblemind spells.
Feeblemind: 30% chance of success
-One mage and one Archer cast ONE Feeblemind spell.
Feeblemind: 60% chance of success.
This is what is meant by "support."
Either way, I still think this isn't "support", it's just an incidental benefit. There is no trade-off happening anywhere. Your shots deal the exact same damage, they just also do something else. It's even instant cast. That's kinda like saying a fighter is support because of GWW killing things more quickly, or because of an elemental weapon interrupting a mage through SS - but that's also all just incidental.
EDIT: Also, I still wouldn't want to waste time with Feeblemind at 60% - and that's WITH setup by an Archer? Does not seem efficient at all.
As for examples... I don't know about @joluv, but if I were to single out some of the best, assuming we're using Called Shot:
Mage spells:
Blindness, Spook, Web, Glitterdust, Ray of Enfeeblement, Slow, Emotion, Chaos, Feeblemind, Symbol: Stun
Cleric spells:
Hold Person, Silence 15' Radius, Greater Command, Blade Barrier, Globe of Blades
The Called Shot save penalty also empowers Celestial Fury, Kuo-toa Bolts, and Jan's flashers.
And to have an Archer pelt them a good few times before I do it? That just seems like such a poor plan. What on earth wouldn't be on their way to dead by the time the debuffing is finished? Bosses? Bosses that are likely immune to things like Hold Person, Blindness, etc. anyway? Is there a ToB boss susceptible to any of these effects? I'm not being snarky here, I honestly don't know because I never use these spells.
It's true that, by the time you hit a monster with 20 arrows, it's usually already dead. But you don't have to get 20 shots in for -20 to save vs. spell before you hit your target with Feeblemind (unless your target is an SCS2 dragon, for example). It's like the complaint about Wizard Slayers' spell failure on hit isn't useful. By the time you get in 10 hits and your target has 100% spell failure, the battle is already over! True, but after two hits, you've got 20%, another three and it's 50%, and you don't have to get your enemy to 100% spell failure before they start losing spells. Even the lower numbers are significant. I only mention the crazy numbers for Called Shot (-20 penalty to save vs. spell) to illustrate the potential. You can lower one enemy's save by 5, then do the same for another three. All four get only lightly injured, but they also are all much more vulnerable to Chaos. The Archer can kill one enemy or help disable four, whichever is more useful to you.
As for bosses... I don't believe any bosses are immune to Ray of Enfeeblement, which works very nicely with Called Shot, both because of the save penalty and the STR drain. Nor are bosses immune to Globe of Blades, and save penalties will empower that spell as well, as well as non-binary damage spells like Horrid Wilting.
I think one of the Five, and Melissan herself, is immune to 1st- and 2nd-level spells (and another member of the Five, plus Melissan, is immune to 3rd-level spells), and of course Liches and Rakshasas also have spell level immunities, so there are some people immune to Ray of Enfeeblement because of its low level. But nobody in vanilla or SCS2, nor I believe even Tactics, is immune to the STR modifier. If my memory is correct, even plot-related enemies, who get immunities to all kinds of stuff, are vulnerable to Blindness and Slow.
In a word, not all disablers will always work. But for all but a handful of battles, lowering the enemy's save vs. spell will empower at least one option at your disposal, whether it's a Blindness spell against a low-level cleric, an Emotion spell against a mid-level mage, a Feeblemind spell against a dragon, a Sunray against a Lich, Celestial Fury against a Pit Fiend, or Globe of Blades against a boss.
If you concentrate on the enemy's immunities, then saving throws are naturally going to seem irrelevant, and pure damage always seems like the best option. But if you think about their vulnerabilities, it's easier to see the potential behind low- or no-damage options like Called Shot.
I do absolutely agree that the stat drain is a nice thing to have. Very few if any mobs are immune to it, and you can use it to kill even things that are supposed to be unkillable (e.g. Arkanis Gath). Sold.
But the save penalty? I remain highly skeptical on that one. At early game, practically nothing will survive taking hits from an Archer - if you can hit it, you can kill it, and quickly.
The only enemy that comes to my mind with lots of HP is Firkraag, but he also has a ton of magic resistance which you'd need to lower. So you'd have to stand there getting off what, 3+ Lower Resistance spells (he has 65 magic resistance)? He has a save vs. spells of 6, making your spell a 30% to hit. Firkraag also has a base AC of -11, meaning not all your shots will actually hit. Let's say you get 5 Called Shots in (which is a decent hit rate for early level) that puts you at 55% chance to hit with the spell. That is still fairly low, and will require several tries to actually hit - within the small window of CS being applies, or with reloads, meaning everything all over again. That just does not seem efficient to me. Going in there and fighting will work a lot more than a mere 55% of the time. [that's my Firkraag anyway, which admittedly is buffed by mods]
Either way, that STILL doesn't make an Archer "support". The fact that some enemies are resistant to missiles, and that one or two bosses may be better taken out by stat-drain shots does not relegate a primary damage dealer to a different role. That's like saying all fighters are "support" because all they do against stoneskinned mages is sneak in elemental-damage interrupts. Obviously not the case.
And btw, while the Wizard Slayer analogy seems fitting, do keep in mind that a WS specifically targets mages - the enemies that are both the most difficult to hit in the first place, and the ones that tend to have lower than average HP (meaning hits you DO get in kill them quickly). That's a systemic issue that not only doesn't translate to Archers, but is basically the OPPOSITE of how it is for them. The time an Archer would most want to actually go for CS stat drain is against enemies they can hit but deal little damage against.
[P.S.: Found something interesting. Firkraag has a mere 3 WIS - that means that just TWO missed saves against Kachiko's Wakizashi would kill him dead! Fun.]
Darts of Stunning+ called shot = epic win
1: A damage dealer
2: A support character
It is both of these things. Sometimes (sometimes!) an Archer will simply kill the enemy. That is what I mean by a damage dealer. Other times (other times!), it will disable it before the enemy dies. That is what I mean by a support character.
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You seem skeptical that an Archer is more of a support character than a damage dealer. You are quite right. It is not. When I say it's a support character, what I mean is NOT that its PRIMARY role is to empower the other party members. Its primary role is indeed to deal damage. When I say it is a support character, I mean that it can empower the other party members.
How does it empower them? It lowers enemy saves. Therefore, it is a support character, because the party's spells are more effective. The Archer supports the mage's function. The Archer is supporting the mage. It is a supporting character. Perhaps you have a different definition of party support, but my definition is that one character does something to make the other characters more effective (Haste, Called Shot) or harder to kill (Death Ward, Defensive Harmony).
Tansheron, I know the Archer is primarily a damage dealer. I have played them many times and can attest to their ability to kill stuff. No one is disputing that. I know the Archer is also a supporting character. I have played them many times and can attest to their ability to strengthen disablers.
I cannot tell from your posts. Are you skeptical that the Archer is a supporting character? Are you skeptical that an Archer is PRIMARILY a supporting character? Or are you using a different definition of support than I am?
The fact that abilities of party members can have synergistic effects is no big surprise, but that doesn't make the associated characters "support characters". A support character is, at least in my book, one that explicitly makes a trade-off in some respect in order to benefit the performance of the party; e.g. a pure mage (low single target damage for great buffs/debuffs), or a bard (low damage in general for party buffs), or a pure cleric (lower attack damage for buffs/heals), etc.
If you expanded the definition to give a "support role" to every character with an ability that somehow benefits other characters, you'd quickly dilute the term to meaninglessness because pretty much anything can fit that (fighter stunning someone with a HLA/weapon? Support! - your other melee will now hit the target better).
But I see that we agree on the general use and power of the Archer, so perhaps we should not derail this discussion further with the minutiae of terminology.