Mage Vs. Fighter w/bow or Archer
ghettohoodie
Member Posts: 50
What is better overall? A bow character or a mage?
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Anyway, BG2 has a strong emphasis on magic. With each level-up a mage will become better and better. An archer, though, stays strong through SoA but slowly loses her major advantage when the later stages of the game come. But nonetheless you can still kill things as an archer, even on the later stages.
As for a "bow character", an archer is of course more effective with a ranged weapon than a fighter with a bow, but a fighter still remains more diverse because he can become more effective in a close combat - so you can always choose between your bow and a melee weapon.
@ghettohoodie : Comparing mage and Fighter is not that easy, both have strengths and disadvantages and neither of these are shared by both. Between Archer and Fighter:
Archer is better in a full team for it can stay at long range and make optimal use of his skills while fighter is better in a solo/ 2-3 members team because it can go melee and do great job if needed.
As for mages, that is another thing entirely. BG2, especially with mods like SCS, is very spell-heavy. You probably want a lot of magic power to deal with the enemy mages, but most of that power is dispels and protection removal, as well as some buffs. Outside of AoE scenarios, mages don't have a ton of damage/time, and usually fall behind fighters in overall damage output (particularly during the early and mid-game). F/M hybrids are usually the answer.
You can make a F/M hybrid that uses bows, but unfortunately the fighter kits don't really support ranged weapons (Berserker can't use them well, Kensai can't use them at all). Still, even an unkitted fighter->mage dual, or a F/M multi even, should not do too poorly. Personally I prefer leaving my F/M hybrids as melee, and using an Archer for the ranged job - but that is by no means set in stone.
Even though I have never used bow/crossbow focused characters, that is to say all my ranged weapons have been wielded by non-specialist archers like Imoen (short bow), Yoshimo (short bow) and Keldorn (crossbow), they tend to pull their weight pretty well in battle. Melee-focused characters do pack a meaner punch, but there are often tactical situations where charging in is a bad idea.
Mages tend to perform more of an enabler and disabler role. They turn the tide of battle by rigging it in your favour in some way, by stripping enemy defense and/or disabling them with crowd control effects. However, unless you are okay with resting very often, you don't generally use mages to nuke enemies that you can chop in melee and shoot up with ranged weapons.
In BG2, however, while volleyers still work as well as ever, it quickly becomes very difficult to be a main damage dealer at range. This is basically because there are a lot of bonuses melee characters can get, in terms of Strength and number of attacks (and weapon damage, for bows), that ranged characters can't. The melee damage dealers become much stronger as the game goes on, and the ranged damage dealers... don't, especially. This is the source of the general "ranged in bad in BG2" mentality. It's not that ranged has no place in the party. Volleyers are quite useful. But ranged loses its ability to equal melee in terms of raw damage output.
Now, all of this is assuming we're talking about classes with no specific ranged combat bonuses. If we're talking about Archers, the math changes dramatically. Archers get some very substantial bonuses in BG2, and especially into TOB. Combine this with smart weapon selection (I recommend shortbow, but sling or crossbow also works well) and the Archer can easily be a main damage dealer at range.
Army Scythe
Firetooth
Tuigan Bow
Shortbow of Gesen
There are no longbows that match any of these, and archer cannot achieve GM in slings
With these, archer will deal a really fair amount of damage but will still not match a melee warrior. Archers are mostly here to bring constant damage and get the mages down
However I do disagree with those who say archer falls off in ToB. Their called shot combined with improved haste or GWW drains a freaking lot of strength and THAC0, effectively rendering useless most fighters. Not to mention the penalty to saving throws versus spell, which is more than welcome along with a mage. Mages would easily land symbol: stun with such a penalty.
Finally, Firetooth+ normal bolt is good against most mages as it does damage through both Stoneskin and PfMW. This is important as well.
I have lots of experience with Archers and honestly I would say Fighter/Mages are stronger overall. Mages in BG2 are notorious for having amazing buffs, so what it boils down to is whether you want a strong character or simply an effective ranged attacker.
Archers aren't so much fun solo unless you know where to find the right summoning spells. But they work quite well with parties, particularly since Called Shot allows them to lower enemy saves vs. spell.
I usually cheat them in, though, to be honest. I use a lot of convenience cheats.
I prefer sticking to firetooth
Crimson dart +3 works just as fine with a little lower damage and require much less micromanagement. Its downside is that it is only +3 and as such there are some enemies unnaffected by crimson dart
Thac0 is neglectable for you get a stupidly low Thac0 with archer (being at -15 or -17 does not really matter). 2 Damages are not such a big deal either.
Melee on the other hand, duals in particular, start slow, but become increasingly powerful towards the end of the game. Some of the most devastating weapons are from mid-ToB onward (FoA+5, Foebane+5).
So, Archers don't actually get worse on their own, it's just that other classes tend to become better. Their relative power diminishes, but as an absolute they obviously do continue to grow. The missile enchantment problem isn't actually that big a deal.
I'm sticking to Archers either way. Their early/mid game power is WELL worth any loss in relative power in ToB. Archers are VERY good.
@Lord_Tansheron : Their damage falls off but their utility raises. Underestimating their called shot utility is a real mistake. This thing has no save or anything to prevent it.
In ToB, archer are supports for their team, their goal is to disrupt mages, to render useless fighters with called shot. Their damages are just a bonus.
So no permanency for the darts. But we might still be able to create a little more at a time, if we're willing to spend the time. You should be able to create some extra ones on a simulacrum and loot the darts after killing the simulacrum, but that won't give us much, and it'd be rather time-consuming.
Looks like the Cloak of Stars is no longer as overpowered as it once was. It was overlooked so long, and then got nerfed.
@joluv : can't remember what Heavy Crossbow of Searing does, guess it s 1 fire damage much like blade of searing, but it indeed should apply as well. But considering you can get Firetooth very early in SoA (it is chapter 2, and it is not so expensive, Trademeet quests are very easy and gives you more than enough to get firetooth), I guess it does not really matter. Gesen however... I always used Gesen because of its +4 innate arrow (it is the only bow that has unlimited +4 ammo), I never thought it could do this as well. Thank you
Used without ammo, it fires unlimited +4-equivalent ammo that deals 2 piercing + 1d8 lightning damage. That's a decent chunk of damage for a ranged weapon, and note that that's *piercing*, not *missile*. So the Shortbow of Gesen can hurt things that are immune to missile damage. That's pretty fantastic. While there are still spells that can protect from the bow, there are no innate immunities that can stop it. This is in contrast to every other ranged weapon in the game.
Used with ammo, it uses the ammo's plus-equivalence and adds its damage to the arrow's (although it uses the arrow's damage type for the physical part). So the Shortbow of Gesen is now doing 1d6+2 missile + 1d8 lightning damage, in addition to any magical bonuses on the arrow (although these tend to be few and far between). That's a legitimately good chunk of damage, just slightly shy of Firetooth's total (and remember, the Shortbow of Gesen gets more attacks). That also means it can pull off the whole "non-magical arrow with elemental damage" trick.
Basically, the Shortbow of Gesen is fantastic.