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Sorcerer or Dragon Disciple?

2

Comments

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Sorcerer
    If that is an attempt at a rhetorical question, those don't work well in message boards where other readers are likely to answer.

    The Dragon Disciple is a Sorcerer. What spells to learn may depend on various factors not limited to personal playing-style. As you could learn in the previous comments, some players like the fire theme when playing a DrD ... that's also one of the reasons I've started a game with a DrD ... and learning cold-damage spells instead doesn't match everyone's taste. Btw, my DrD hasn't learned the Sleep spell. I quickly restarted after I had played a bit with a Jester instead of a Skald and a DrD knowing Sleep. It has not been impressive.
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Theme is pointless to discuss.

    Snilloc Snowball Storm does AoE damage which is what the Breath ability does. Sorcs can also learn Burnimg Hands and they deal the same amount of damage with it as Dragon Disciples. The Dragon Disciple's Fire resistance is irrelevant to it casting Burning Hands.

    Also what does Sleep have to do with Sorcerers and Dragon Disciples.
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Sorcerer
    Don't try so hard to get another thread closed.

    Thank you in advance for a bit more tolerance about how to enjoy IWDEE.
    DreadKhanT2avThacoBell
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    How people play the game doesn't change how Sorcerers still have a way to deal AoE damage before the third spell level nor does it change how Burning Hands works the same on them as a Dragon Disciple.
  • AerichAerich Member Posts: 60
    Sorcerer
    To a very large degree, it doesn't matter whether one picks a sorceror or a dragon disciple. The strengths of the class - flexibility to learn any spell at level up, flexibility to cast any spell known at any time - remain the same and each choice is equally viable, for the vast majority of game circumstances. Having played the sorc, the extra spell per level hasn't seemed like such a great deal.

    Spell choice is another question entirely.
    MerinaThacoBell
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,433
    Sorcerer was the first class I ever played with, back in 2000, so it has a special place in my heart. I liked evolving my character's playstyle as I gained levels, choosing spells that seemed fun to use as they came up rather than planning my progression from character creation onward. Spell Sequencer combined with Magic Missile was my favorite strategy.

    For me, the Dragon Disciple doesn't always do what I want it to do. As a Dragon Disciple I want to be able to wade into combat and tear people apart with my claws and breathe fire at my enemies, plucking arrows harmlessly out of my scaly skin. The Dragon Disciple does most of that, but having the breath weapon only be usable once per day (and having its damage be on par with a level 2 spell instead of scaling more aggressively makes it a less "choice" solution).

    In my own game, I've modified the kit to get additional spells known in the dragon "theme", instead of some of their innate abilities; it allows those abilities to be more potent because in order to use them, the disciple has to give up one of their limited spell slots. And Breath Weapon is a lot more satisfying when it deals 10d8 damage at level 10.

    I love the Dragon Disciple's theme, though. Now, given the choice between Dragon Disciple and Sorcerer, I find it hard to not go with the kit.
    luskanDreadKhanGrumT2av
  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    Dragon Disciple
    I usually go DD in a party. Replace a few spell choices with some dragon themed spells for flavour. Your party will cover for any shortcomings you might otherwise have.
    thespace said:

    I appreciate everyone's input. I ended up with a DD. I've enjoyed it enough to start BG1EE over with a DD as well. An elf. Starting with a 17 CON, so as to make her way towards having a 20 in BG2EE (19 by end of BG1), so as to be a self regenerating atomic bomb ;)

    Until you get 20 CON give your sorc the Claw of Kazgaroth. As long as your CON is still 16 or better the only disadvantage it gives is the penalty to saves vs death.
    Grum
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 1,731
    i think that dragon disciple should do bonus fire damage, or at least have exclusive access to an item that does it (i know there already is one but it's for anyone)
    semiticgodGrumthespace
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,395
    Arguing that Sorcerer or Wild Mage is better than another kit/class is no wisdom. Everyone who has played a solo sorcerer even in BG1 has no doubts of how good the class is.

    I agree with @Dee that DrD lacks some oomph... it weakens the prime capability of sorcerers and offers no new tactics really, its merely 'slightly better' at some tricks a sorcerer can already do.

    DrD does have hella RP value though.
  • GrumGrum Member Posts: 1,986
    Sorcerer
    One thing which would have been interesting is if the DrD had the same casting power as a plain sorceror, but was limited in what spells he can learn.

    Same number of spells known and casted, with survivability benefits, but only gets dragon themed spells and basic utility ones. Now that d I'd play in a heartbeat, even if he'd lose out on some of the best spells in the game.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,678
    Sorcerer
    No point in Dragon Disciple Class. It's like put a kensai pros an cons inside a mage kit, ridiculous!!

    Bonus constitution, bonus AC, area ranged fire damage... into a spellcaster?

    It's a really very bad use of an 3.5Ed claass. There, Dragon Disciple was neaver meant to be an spellcaster. To get DD in that rule edition, you need to sacrifice 1 level and 1 branch of non-prestige class to get access to this class (in NWN2 for example you can level up in four different classes at the maximum).

    You did that cos DD class intend to give your class physical attributes, in that rule DD class didn't even add spellcaster progression. At lvl 10 prestige class in 3.5Ed you get +4str, +2 Con, +2 int, +3 AC bonus, blindsense (blindness don't give fight penalities, normally), dragon breath attack, wings and dragon form.

    As you see, it's not a arcane class, it's made for brute strengh.


    IF, sorceres could equip other weapns besides the mage restriction (which they should as the mage restriction is based not only but also in the amount of time a wizard dedicate him/herself to arcane studies, while sorceres get power naturally)...

    IF constitution gave hp bonus past 15 to this sorcerer class...

    IF Icewind dale has any chance of drop/find an elven chain mail or a good robe with AC bonus...


    THEN i would recommend Dragon Disciple.
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Sorcerer
    Disregarding all the theoretical and mathematical ramblings in this thread, the Dragon Disciple in my latest party has not only been fun but helpful several times so far ... and maybe that is only because of the way I play it. It will need many more hours to test some things. Not to find out "who is better?" ... and that was no the thread-starter's question ... but to give the DrD justice when playing it. I've picked Shroud of Flame as the first lvl 5 spell forcing myself to use it.

    I've asked myself how often would I use the dragon breath? Especially as it's once per day. On the contrary, since the party is setting up camp regularly, the breath is available again often. And when would I benefit from the fire resistance? ... Obviously not if trying to stay out of all trouble. On the contrary, I don't need to worry about anyone dispelling protections ...the Acolytes in the Forgotten Temple did that. That meant 50% prot vs fire at that time, and the extra fireball from the Skald could be thrown less accurately towards the enemy while my Blackguard had to retreat already. He's a coward with weak dexterity favouring attacks from the second line. :wink:

    For those interested in some numbers, with a party-of-six at insane difficulty it's been roughly above 518,000 XP after completing the Severed Hand. There have been quite some situations in the towers, where the DrD could approach a doorway, burn the approaching Elves, which are slowed by Grease and or Web, and then retreat a few steps. The blocker priest had only summoned a single zombie. Ouch. As I don't take notes about enemy capabilities or their behavior, I cannot say what I would have done with a plain Sorcerer. The one spell less per level has not been an issue so far.

    Btw, ... and off-topic ... I'm playing an Avenger for the first time instead of another druid. Amazingly powerful due to the extra arcane spells but really needs to stay out of trouble. The only one so far who needed to flee or be made invisible by the Skald due to major hits from ranged attacks. Worthwhile, because small mistakes can hurt.
    inethThacoBell
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    And somehow Protection From Fire can't be recasted? Or how later on, when the Dragon Disciple has 100% Fire Resistance, Spell Protection Abjuration isn't a thing, which also is a good idea on a Dragon Disciple so its Mirror Images and Stone Skins can't be dispelled.
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Sorcerer

    And somehow Protection From Fire can't be recasted?

    Instead of Fireball? ... Also a level 3 spell ...

    There are only so many spells you can cast while enemies are rushing towards you. And if you want to apply your standard recipe to delay them, slow them, hold them up first, you would be busy casting different spells anyway ... a bit about that really depends on what the others in the party do and how you like to play ... like the Avenger casting a Web, too.

    For a long time the sorcerers can only learn four lvl 3 spells. Prot From Fire is one, Fireball is one, if not preferring Skull Trap. What about Inv 10', Slow, MMM, Haste? Prot From Cold? ... Just to name a few interesting ones.

    No matter how you will skill a Sorcerer, it's always a trade-off compared with a Mage.
    Or how later on, when the Dragon Disciple has 100% Fire Resistance, Spell Protection Abjuration isn't a thing, which also is a good idea on a Dragon Disciple so its Mirror Images and Stone Skins can't be dispelled.
    I take it you mean Spell Immunity which is a lvl 5 spell and competing with several worthwhile spells from lvl 5 which you may want to learn. Like Animate Dead to meet the "summons, summons, summons" requirements. Stuff for even another topic ...
    ThacoBell
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Seeing as you' put the Dragon Disciple in situations where it getting hit with a Dispel Magic somehow matters, I'd say Spell Immunity Abjuration matters more than Animate Dead. Unless Animate Dead takes those situations away then it wouldn't matter if a Sorcerer gets hit by Dispel Magic.

    So either way Dispel Magic on the Sorcerer doesn't matter.

    Oh and Web and Summons? The whole point of those spells is to keep enemies from targetting your party members. So I'm not really sure why a Dragon Disciple having undispellable Fire Resistance matters unless you shove them in an enemy's face.
    Post edited by Zyzzogeton on
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Sorcerer

    Seeing as you' put the Dragon Disciple in situations where it getting hit with a Dispel Magic somehow matters, I'd say Spell Immunity Abjuration matters more than Animate Dead.

    Which is possible since in a party there are others who can summon, too, if summons are what works for you: the cleric, the druid, the bard, ... if not learning Animate Dead in favor of another level 5 spell, the DrD could choose Spider Spawn instead of learning some other level 4 spell. We all know, web and spiders can make sense.

    There are many ways to play the game. The DrD doesn't need to mimic a non-kit Sorcerer.

    Or: moving an invisible hero with a group of summons deep into a dungeon is not everyone's cup of tea either.
    Unless Animate Dead takes those situations away then it wouldn't matter if a Sorcerer gets hit by Dispel Magic.
    A moot point. In other encounters the Dispel Magic cannot be avoided, but Belhifet is not the sole reason to choose a DrD.
    So either way Dispel Magic on the Sorcerer doesn't matter.
    ... and casting Prot From Fire doesn't either, if you choose to keep the Sorcerer in safe distance at all cost. That still doesn't mean you are forced to play it like that. Or to let a DrD mimic a Sorcerer.
    Oh and Web and Summons? The whole point of those spells is to keep enemies from targetting your party members.
    Even if that worked 100% for you always ... it would only be one out multiple tactics to choose from. Number of summons is random. For me, often it's been only a single zombie or spider.

    Joril and his many giant warriors and bodyguards ignored the two webs I had casted with the Avenger and the DrD. In the crowded cave, the cone-shaped Dragon Breath was as helpful as in the frozen Museum where it did more damage (with a higher damage bonus) than a fireball.

    I haven't played the game often enough to remember what I would have done with a different party. This time, the many giants were a threat to my party. Running away quickly would have been an option. Casting Inv'10 perhaps, too. As mentioned, a DEX 11 Blackguard with two-handed weapons must be very careful.

    So I'm not really sure why a Dragon Disciple having undispellable Fire Resistance matters unless you shove them in an enemy's face.
    "Not really sure"? That sounds strange ... I'm not trying to convince you. Play a sorcerer as you like. I've voted for Sorcerer in this poll ... but giving the DrD a try, it's been fun, and I'm trying to play it differently. The ability is like wearing something that gives fire resistance. And if a frontline hero is also protected against fire at least a bit, that's one thing less to care about when burning a horde of enemies. So far, there have been opportunities to do that. Lower Dorn's Deep will be next...
    ThacoBell
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526


    There are many ways to play the game. The DrD doesn't need to mimic a non-kit Sorcerer.
    And it's fairly irrelevant and pretty much anything the kit can do the main class can easily duplicate.
    A moot point. In other encounters the Dispel Magic cannot be avoided, but Belhifet is not the sole reason to choose a DrD.
    Final boss, more than enough time to learn Spell Immunity
    ... and casting Prot From Fire doesn't either, if you choose to keep the Sorcerer in safe distance at all cost. That still doesn't mean you are forced to play it like that. Or to let a DrD mimic a Sorcerer.
    Doesn't mean a Sorcerer can't also just cast Protection from Fire and do the same thing
    Joril and his many giant warriors and bodyguards ignored the two webs I had casted with the Avenger and the DrD. In the crowded cave, the cone-shaped Dragon Breath was as helpful as in the frozen Museum where it did more damage (with a higher damage bonus) than a fireball.
    Since when is Fireball the only damage spell a Sorcerer can learn?

    Protection from Fire already gives any character immunity to fire.
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Sorcerer

    Since when is Fireball the only damage spell a Sorcerer can learn?

    Who made such a claim?

    No further comments. Going in circles makes no sense. Topic is closed for me.

    Would be great, if the topic starter would report about the experience made with the chosen DrD.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 1,731
    obviously, the point of the fireball remark is that while the fire cone attack is nice, it's not a big deal because you can simply cast spells instead of it, and there are much better spells than it.

    you can't compare drd to a sorcerer more or less favourably if you are not even going to compare them and instead go the way of "to each his own". there has to be a common framework for comparison where you compare advantages and disadvantages

    people mostly think that drd's advantages, while cool in themselves (but also somewhat irrelevant), don't really compensate for losing a few high level spell slots. because that's what a sorcerer's main role is - to cast powerful spells. not to stand there and get hit by fire and weapons.
    i haven't seen you successfully arguing against that and having your arguments ignored to be able to say that the discussion has been going in a circle.
    FinneousPJ
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,433
    As I see it, this thread's topic wasn't about which class is objectively better; it was about which class people prefer to play. In that sense, "to each his own" is a perfectly valid argument. Is the Dragon Disciple not as powerful as you might like? Perhaps. Can you still play as a Dragon Disciple and enjoy yourself? Certainly.

    I think where it goes in circles is when one side of the debate is talking about what they like about the class, while the other side of the debate is talking about why it's wrong (or "irrelevant") to like those things.
    semiticgodThacoBell
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 1,731
    edited May 2015
    it's validity cannot be ascertained because you can't debate that stance or question it. it's "allowed" to hold that stance (since no one can take the choice from you to enjoy the game however you like) but if you use it in a debate it's not a valid starting point to build arguments from, or to argue for.

    the issue is not whether you can play a dragon disciple, it's how he compares to a sorcerer. when person #1 says i like this and person #2 i like that, things get boring quickly. people like comparing things and the topic naturally went in that direction. arguably, it *is* the topic.
    and i haven't noticed anyone saying it's wrong to like the dragon disciple
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Not saying it's wrong to like the Dragon Disciple, I'm saying everything the Dragon Disciple does is practically something the Sorcerer already does. There are minute differences, obviously, but nothing so monumental that the only thing that matters is what you see when you click the character screen is Dragon Disciple written there instead of Sorcerer.

    It's not a purely cosmetic difference but not a particularly significant one either.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,678
    Sorcerer
    I believe the Open Thread let it free to debate which is better OR which you prefer. It's a simple question:
    thespace said:

    Refining my new party. Wanted to hear your opinions if you'd like to share.


    Sorcerer or Dragon Disciple? Discuss who's better is an entirely valid point in this thread.

    Inside that discussion: While mage spells aren't so important in this game, the pros of the class are still misplaced, fighter bonuses given to a arcane caster class.
  • Artix00Artix00 Member Posts: 11
    Dragon Disciple
    Hmmmm I prefer Dragon Disciple cause you get to breath fire..... but you know other then that i see no difference between the two...
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 6,440
    Sorcerer
    I'd play the Dragon Disciple if I could pick more colors. A white Dragon Disciple would it IWD very well. Even though the cold damage would be useless most of the time.
    Nimran
  • Ark_ToleiArk_Tolei Member Posts: 67
    RDD's have unique tanking advantages that a Sorc has no way to replicate, as well as a few conveniences if you intend to save resources. I'll save you all that math, but suffice to say, despite having fewer casts of their protection spells, a RDD has enough increased effectiveness from them that they can take more attacks before running out of defensive spells, in all but the absolute worst of circumstances (thac0's so high that the enemy literally can't miss).

    RDD's have objectively superior utility (having access to every ability sorcs have, as well as some of their own), while sorcs have more throughput with offensive spells.

    If you're resting religiously then RDD's are just going to be better, because you never run out of resources. If you're trying to wheedle every bit out of every rest, RDD's are again better (tanking spells are more cost effective than nukes or CC's and RDD's utilize them far better). If you're just blowing things up until you feel like resting again your mileage will vary depending entirely on playstyle.

    Both kits are extremely powerful, and comparing the two is much akin to comparing a +6 longsword to a +5 defender longsword. You'll probably be happy either way, unless you're a cleric, but if you're close to AC capping an enemy? That defender starts looking really sexy.
  • Lehigh96Lehigh96 Member Posts: 21
    Dragon Disciple
    33zmcfp66dxn.jpeg

    I found Dragon Disciple to be a very fun class to play and very deadly to Frost Salamanders, lol.
    PteranBelgarathMTH
  • PteranPteran Member Posts: 388
    Dragon Disciple
    DD can be very fun to play. Sorc seems to fit power gaming a little better. They've both got their uses, and I'd be happy to have either one in my party.

    Also as @Grum mentioned (way back in May lol) it would be loads of fun, thematically, to roll with a group of DD's and Sun Soul Monks.
    GrumGozeta
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,443
    Dragon Disciple
    It's fun to play as a team of six Dragon Disciples. Normally it's kind of annoying how you can only use the breath weapon once per day, but if you have six characters you can use it six times per day!
    Pteran
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