Does anyone else like basic thieves more than the kits?
skaterfezz
Member Posts: 43
Maybe its because none of the kits feel very thief like but im enjoying the kitless thief much more.
I was curious if other people feel the same way, it seems like the basic thief often gets overlooked.
I was curious if other people feel the same way, it seems like the basic thief often gets overlooked.
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Pure Thief only for dual-classing.
It's in the "Maybe this time" no-reload thread, near the bottom of page 13.
It's in the "Maybe this time" no-reload thread, near the bottom of page 13.
EDIT: Apparently that's my 1000th comment. How appropriate that it has a cute spider on it.
Can you do it? Sure. You can also make a dagger wielding barbarian. You can beat the game with both, but it will be harder.
Swashbuckler is a good full time class, if you dislike micro-management with backstabs to be an effective damage dealer, especially for half orcs with 19str, straight up capable meleer with full thief skills.
Kitless thief is good for dual classing as well. However, if you go full thief up to lvl 40, additional skill points are a huge waste.
For low lvl play though, it is good enough. Assasins suffer the most at low lvl play, not enough skills for anything, no 7x backstabs to make it worthwhile.
I had a pure thief in bg2 and he was powerful but all of my concentration and effort as a player was fixated on him. You can rage a half orc barbarian/berserker etc and send him to melee and watch the carnage. You can not do this with the thief you must be alert, smart, and always on your toes.
Hexxat can be a very powerful npc with those stats and specials. However most people, including me, do not put much effort in playing her, all of our attention is on our own pc, so she ends up using a bow to little effect or gulping around healing potions or flying in gaseous form in most tough battles.
Slightly off-topic:
Currently playing a thief/mage keepered to assassin/mage (for RP reasons) in BG1, planned to take him through the saga. He's very good so far since he can use spell slots for knock and invisibility while pumping traps. So already from just starting in Candlekeep and "by mistake" knocking of old Firebeard, he can be the party's only thief. Even without keepering the assassin into the multiclass, I prefer F/T, T/C or M/T over any singleclass thief, vanilla or kit.
Even though a F/M/T is arguably better, a M/T gives you complete flexibility in choosing ANY npc throughout the saga since your CHARNAME will be able to do everything on his/her own, and still reach decent levels in the two classes. Wielding belm/kundane/scarlet with haste/Tenser's etc will make you a good enough fighter throughout the game as well, even without fighter HLA's (though I tend to disregard HLA's when creating chars since 80% of the saga is played without them).
(But Swashbuckler is basically an utility fighter, especially on higher levels, when the +hit/+dmg bonuses stack up)
Or, I'll go Stalker with the same overall plan.
All that said, I do think thieves are 'must haves', but are not fun for all players. I want to play one, just to make me better with thieves, overall. Usually, I go powergamer-melee. While that's fine and dandy, I'm a weak player when it comes to using spells, scrolls, skills. I think that actually playing something different makes me better at using NPC's, etc.
For instance, I'm playing a monk through the original right now. He's just reaching the point where he's no longer the weakest in the party, but he's still limited. It's made me:
1) use a lot more spells
2) my NPC's are the brunt of the 'power'
I really think it's made me a better player.
I've done some tests in Excel and found that a Fighter/Thief, at any given amount of XP, has roughly the same damage output, roughly the same AC, roughly the same THAC0, and roughly the same skill points as a Swashbuckler. A Swashbuckler is basically a Fighter/Thief, but with more of the thief and less of the fighter.
And an unkitted Thief? Actually, it has more damage output than a Swashbuckler, if you dedicate some skill points to stealth. Having soloed a Swashbuckler through SoA and having tried various backstabbing characters, I believe that the Swashbuckler's bonuses are just about as valuable as the backstab multiplier that it loses--either not much more valuable, or not much less. A Swashbuckler gets 4 APR with Belm and Kundane both, with a little extra damage and THAC0. A Thief gets 6 attacks per round with a backstab and Belm.
APR is better for enemies with Stoneskin, yes. But backstabs are better for enemies without. Some enemies are immune to backstab, yes. But most are not. I don't think the Swashbuckler kit is much better than a normal thief--the tradeoffs are pretty equal.
Swashbuckler is the best thief kit if you like Fighter/Thieves, or if you don't like backstabbing.
A Fighter/Thief can wear Full Plate and use the Shield of Harmony (say) for a 12 bonus to AC. A Swashbuckler by this time might have the Bracers of Defense AC 3 and be at level 15, for 10 bonus to AC. Or maybe you're at the beginning of the game, with Plate Mail and Studded Leather, with +2 to the Swashbuckler's AC, and the difference in the Fighter/Thief's favor is even higher. Or maybe you're in ToB, and both characters can use the same items thanks to UAI, and the Swashbuckler has a +5 advantage.
The Swashbuckler has superior late-game AC (some dispute that AC even matters by then, but I disagree). But for much (most?) of the game, the access to heavier armor grants the Fighter/Thief better AC, at the cost of the stealth ability (which, honestly, your Swashbuckler will also not be using). Overall, they're fairly similar. And for the sake of clarity, when I calculated that they have similar damage output, I was assuming the Fighter/Thief was not backstabbing.
At the start of BG2, the Fighter/Thief should have a +4 advantage thanks to plate mail and a shield. End-game (well, 8 million XP, if you get there), the Swashbuckler should have a +8 advantage over the Fighter/Thief, assuming they're using the same items.
When does a Fighter/Thief have similar AC? Well, the Fighter/Thief's AC is better in the early game thanks to armor and shields, evens out in the midgame thanks to magic leather and kit bonuses, and then shifts to the Swashbuckler's advantage as the kit bonuses increase and the Swashbuckler eventually gets access to metal armor and shields. Since the advantage starts with the Fighter/Thief and eventually switches to the Swashbuckler, I would consider them roughly even.
If you decide to dual late, your Assassin or Swashie will get UAI, and offer use of non-cleric weapons, for up to 2 extra apr, while buffs will give good odds to hit.