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Who else hates cheese?

aj_aj_ Member Posts: 9
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
Spells like Project Image and Simulacrum are hilariously broken and remove all semblance of challenge from the game. CE items such as the Robe of Vecna and the Shield of Balduran are insanely OP and trivial to obtain (unlike, say, the Staff of the Magi which is extremely powerful but difficult to obtain, unless of course you cheese that encounter too...). And yet, most everyone seems to be fine with this extreme cheese.

Am I alone in my hate of game-breaking cheese?
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Comments

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I think a majority of people here dislike cheese. We just differ in our opinions of what constitutes cheese. I don't mind the Robe of Vecna or the Shield of Balduran or certain uses of Simulacrum, but I do mind Project Image and the Cloak of Mirroring and Mislead backstabs and Improved Alacrity and rest spam and overriding a polymorphed form's natural weapons and a bunch of other stuff. It's all in how you want to play.
  • aj_aj_ Member Posts: 9
    I agree that certain cheese is subjective, but I have a strong aversion to CE / preorder items in any game that features them because they are typically OP to entice buyers. The Robe of Vecna doesn't break the game in the way that PI does, but it does make the game considerably easier.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    I like playing by defined and tangible rules. "No cheese" is not a tangible rule as it's so subjective what actually defines cheese.

    Generally I find bg2 quite boring as I've failed to get SCS working on my ipad and an left with solo endeavours to keep it challenging.

    Bg1 is a much better game in this sense as it's much more balanced except for the easy leveling cheese (Korax vs basilisks haha).
  • wraith5641wraith5641 Member Posts: 500
    edited May 2015
    I absolutely refuse to use cheesy armor and weapons. Some items I like to call "half-cheesy" and I find some excuse to use them. Vhailor's Helm I can forgive because Simulacrum doesn't last that long, and since the simulacrum is only 3/4 of your level (or half, I forget) it isn't that overpowered at the start or middle of the game. It is extremely overpowered at the end when you can put it on a Paladin wielding a Carsomyr +6 and Ring of Gaxx and have two magic-invincible beasts hacking enemies to bits. However, by that point in the game, you need any help you can get. Sometimes you really have to use cheap tactics to beat the ridiculously hard monsters that seem to have infinite THAC0 and unlimited health. I just try not to use items or spells that make me or my party seemingly invincible. As soon as you become almost invulnerable to damage or incapacitation, the game ceases to be a challenge and takes away all the satisfaction you get from beating a tough enemy.

    Edit: OK, I realise Carsomyr is extremely cheesy, but since it's the best reason for having a Paladin in the party, I don't care :P
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    I can't play the game without some cheesing. Maybe I'm not good at it, or something.
  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    I honestly thought this was about actual cheese before I read it, things were about to get heated. :)

    On topic, I don't normally use cheese because I'm too lazy to do anything but buff up and throw myself at the enemy.

    I did cheese one fight in SCS, I was in the ruins of ulcaster and came to the middle of the ruin with the really nasty wolf. The wolf started paralyzing or confusing (it was a while ago) my party members and summoning more wolves, eventually all but my shapeshifter charname were dead and somehow I had managed to retreat into a room and was followed by around 40 summoned wolves (but not the boss wolf) which proceeded to surround me. Fortunately with my back to a wall only four could attack me at any one time, with my AC around -8 or something I didn't get hit much and was fortunate to have earlier placed my potion bag in his inventory so I was able to restore what little health I was losing(I still used ALL of my carefully hoarded potions). Half an hour later I managed to deal with the wolves and went to find the boss wolf only to find it back at full health. I attacked and as sod's law dictates was quickly confused and surrounded by yet more summoned wolves, at that point I got fed up and CTRL Y'd the rest of the wolves and the boss wolf, I then ctrl r'd a couple of party members to make sure that I wouldn't lose any valuable gear when trekking back to a temple.

    I felt that after the fight my charname had been through he deserved to kill that bloody wolf
    Does that count as cheese or plain cheating? :)
    image
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @wubble: People normally would say the console was a cheat rather than cheese. Cheese usually means an exploit, something that's in the unmodified game but which you're using for an unexpected and unusually effective purpose.

    But who cares? Paralyzing wolves need to go down.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    I think 'cheese' should be defined as whether the player himself judges his actions and finds the tactics he used extremely lame/unfair etc. No other player should judge another player's play style or tactics unless the said player brags about his super bg skills while he just exploits game's limited ai and mechanics.

    I have fixed most exploits in my modded game, thievery potions do not stack, fences can not be stolen from and they pay less for buying items back.


    Why? Example of the perfect cheese:Now, in the vanilla, a player after just fleeing starter dungeon, even with a lame pickpocket score, can gulp 5 thief potions and go on a stealing spree in Waukeen's Promenade, the armorer/fletcher guys and the bookkeeper are ripe for plunder. Then go sell them to a fence. Steal them back and sell again. At the start of the game you can have 100 k gold easily and all +2 enchanted stuff with no risk. I don't think the game designers really wanted that. I don't feel comfortable doing this. I feel guilty, even. It unbalances the game and makes everything too easy right at the start of the game. On top of that, it feels stupid that the fence is too gullable and can buy the same item over and over again, while you smile and steal it back every time? To my mind this consitutes as the perfect cheese and if a player does this and brags about his uber skills in bg and that bg2 is too easy, I will make a comment or two. Other than that, it is not my business how everybody plays a game in their leisure time.

    However if you equip killsword with the shadowkeeper and ctrl+q tough enemies to your party etc. That is not even cheese, that is flat out cheating.
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    I don't think any item is cheesy when used in a 6-person party, and not used with UAI. Cloak of Mirroring gives 100% spell dmg immunity, but so what? There's still 5 other people that are vulnerable to spells. Robe of Vecna reduces casting time, so what? You still can't insta-cast Time Stop or Horrid Wilting. Carsomyr is a pretty awesome sword but you still need to hit that enemy before it's actually useful. And Shield of Balduran? I didn't fight too many beholders (maybe 3?) in my last game, so whatever.. :smiley:

    I have a general dislike of all illusion-spells beyond level 5 spells. Any spell that prolongs a battle instead of making it shorter is an absolute no-no in my books. I like steamrolling instead of trickery.
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,603
    edited May 2015
    Cheese: "A food made from the pressed curds of milk" - OED definition.
    'Definition' being the operative word here as it is a definite concept with a definite reality. "Cheese" in the gaming sense however is an invented term with undefined parameters and therefore no definable meaning.
    So, as has been said many times before, one's personal interpretation of what constitutes cheese is just that - personal, and in a single player game, irrelevant to anyone else.

    On my personal note, after I've played a game a couple of times with my generic 'me-type adventurer' I then like to try and find ways to exploit the game mechanics (just because I like to 'beat the system') before settling down to some serious roleplaying and enjoying the game as I like to play it (which may or may not include some of the exploits I've previously discovered).
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    My definition for cheesing is "exploiting AI problems or game bugs"
    The most notable example is the Twisted Rune fight which you can easily cheese by fighting Shangalar (and naked Revanek) first, then taking the three others one by one. That's cheesing because if there was a decent AI behind the enemies it would never act as such.
    However, stacking DoE, Armor of Faith and Hardiness is not cheesing IMHO because it is a game mechanic more than a bug exploit. Basically I do not consider as cheesing anything related to spells and equipments combos to make you strong.
    The only exception that I would set about this is Staff of the Magi and mislead invisibility. I mean, being perma invisible even when you throw spells is insane. Mislead is just stupidly strong as it allows you to make 10 backstabs with a F/M/T. Yeah that's just like about 35-40 APR (considering STR boost is not multiplied)
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    Well, I'll have to say that, sometimes, you must fight cheese with cheese.

    Case in point. Cloudkill plus stinking cloud, used by greater EVIL shapechanging enemies in Durlag's Tower, or a non-disableable trap that shuts you in a room and, then, cloudkills you. Those are nothing but pure cheese.

    I don't know how to not play with cheese or meta-knowledge.

    Basilisks on platform outside Durlag's Tower - huge cheese. They'll petrify before you know they're there. At least the ones to the far east have statues of people and creatures to warn you - not these bastards. So, I cheesed it up with Protection spells, turning them into nothing more dangerous than big lizards.

    Accidental cheese was Silence, 15' Radius, on the demon at the end of Durlag's Tower. It completely disabled him, and we whackamoled him to death. I didn't mean to cheese that one, but was glad I did.


    Truth is XP and loot from cheese are same as XP and loot from honorable solutions.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Installing SCS2 will ameliorate some "cheese" problems by improving enemy AI. SCS2 lets Beholders eventually try to snatch the Shield of Balduran or Cloak of Mirroring from your possession when they notice their rays aren't working, Liches will dispel Protection from Undead, mages will dispel Protection from Magic with Spellstrike, and in general prevents simple strategies from working reliably.
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  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    A situationally dominant item doesn't *have* to ruin a story. The Rift Device doesn't ruin the Unseeing Eye quest. Perseus's shield doesn't ruin his myth. And a good story could involve discovering the existence of a beholder cult and then going to acquire a legendary item that deflects beholder rays before attacking their lair. These things trivialize the combat, not necessarily the narrative. That said, I wish that extremely powerful items were more difficult to acquire, either as quest loot or by being *much* more expensive.
  • JAuggieJAuggie Member Posts: 28
    I thought this was relevant since I just did it a few minutes ago. After rescuing the damsel in distress, my party went back ti go pay Firkraag a visit. At this moment Jaek ( Kensai-13/Thief) just remembered he had learned a new ability and wanted to test it out. He equipped Peridan and Belm, had Imoen hook him up with a little bit of Imp Haste, told Imoen, Viconia, and Neera to sit this one out, and then strolled on down to say hi to the big, mean dragon. He dropped a time trap on Firkraag and by the time the trap was up, Jaek was holding a brand new shiny sword.

    I then immediately reloaded and did the fight normally :) Sometimes you just want to see how ridiculous your characters are.

    Disclaimer: I have SCS2 installed, never steal items I've stolen and sold already, removed the Shield of Balduran from the game, I don't rest just to reset spellbooks, and only use protection from undead/magic in certain situations and never to trivialize a fight. There's so many other ways to cheese though, and sometimes it's a riot doing it.
  • MalacPokMalacPok Member Posts: 96
    The concept of "cheese" is ludicrous to begin with. The basic question is the following:

    - is there a reliable strategy to defeat a specific enemy?

    If the answer is "Yes" and once you KNOW that strategy (no matter how obscure it is) the challenge is gone. All AI is limited and all monsters have weak points ready for exploitation. If you posses the arcane Knowledge of Game Mechanics you will eventually figure out a right solution for that encounter. Note how unrealistic this is from a RP perspective.

    Take the Shield of Balduran as example> A new player is bound to lose his/her first fight with a beholder and the same would probably apply to a "real" adventurer fighting a "real" Beholder. The first-time player won't start with checking the shops for anti-beholder gear. If the shield is somehow found, it takes care one specific problem. The set of his/her beholder-killing strategies has increased by one. Every "cheesy" tactic starts with joy of discovering something new and powerful. Today's brilliant discovery is tomorrow's cheese.

    It's obvious that after a while using that tactic becomes boring and a veteran might look for other solutions. That's where the challenge and the fun might lie for him/her. But it has nothing to do with "realism". You may think that it's stupid that a dragon does not notice your thief laying traps around him, but every other advanced tactic also relies on meta-gaming knowledge. How does that adventurer know to cast anti-fear spells on him before dealing with dragons (and not to do so when going against demiliches)? Probably from the same ancient tomes that note the dragon's inability to recognize "certain" trap devices.

    It's perfectly fine to avoid certain items/spells/abilities when they make the game boring for you, but you should understand that these might be useful (or even vital) for other players who know much less about the game than you. It's all a question of knowledge.
  • Montresor_SPMontresor_SP Member Posts: 2,208
    edited May 2015
    I prefer to play a game for the first few times without any cheese or abuse - and without walkthroughs. On later runs, I don't mind letting Draconis fight three Planetars while my party stands back, sipping Baatorian Ale, spamming Horrid Wiltings and laughing like loons. But by that time, I have proved to myself that I can defeat him in (reasonably) honest combat. At least most of the time. :wink:

    Edit: I should add that I don't think you can "cheat" in a single-player game. You get to set your own rules and limits within the limitations of the game. If you do cheat, the only one you're cheating is yourself.
  • wraith5641wraith5641 Member Posts: 500
    edited May 2015
    @Montresor_SP Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought the game wouldn't let you summon three Planetars.
  • Montresor_SPMontresor_SP Member Posts: 2,208
    @wraith5641 There is an exploit in the old game that allows you to summon more than one by abusing Project Image. I think this has been fixed in the EE versions.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I notice beholders coming up a lot. Does anyone have a strategy for fighting beholders that doesn't rely on either heavy RNG or cheese? Everything non-cheese I've ever tried has come down to some combination of "I hope I can make all my saves" and "I hope the beholder doesn't dispel my buffs."
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    edited May 2015
    @Montresor_SP http://www.noelshack.com/2015-20-1431442090-screenshot-2015-05-12-16-47-17.png

    No it is not fixed but I can hardly imagine how would a sorceror do BP2 drow fight without summoning more than one planetar though :)


    @Jarrakul : send them some skeleton warriors
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