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Petition to Allow Game Completion with NPCs of Choice

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  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited July 2015
    @cmorgan you may want to edit your post. Right now everyone can see that spoiler for the mod. :)

    (get rid of the "s" in spoilers. So it should just say spoiler)
  • cmorgancmorgan Member Posts: 707
    @elminster heh - note to self - "spoilers" =/= "spoiler" :) Thanks!
    elminster
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    cmorgan said:

    Regardless of the choices made by developers, @AstroBryGuy, we will need to edit the BG1NPC Dynaheir Romance component end cutscenes to not play on BG:EE if BG:SoDR is installed. Domi wrote a scene where Irenicus shows up and steals the party - and

    Dynaheir dies trying to defend PC
    .
    Yeah, I've been thinking about that. I'll post more at G3.

    Although any insight from Beamdog crew about detecting SoD either during install or while running would be welcome! :wink:
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    shawne said:



    Except they've already said they're not going to do that, so...

    Well, I think they should, so I'm suggesting it.
    shawne said:

    You don't see deleting Jaheira and Minsc from the game as altering original NPC content?

    Nope. It doesn't change their original dialogue lines in any way, and that's always been what's impressed to us as the thing about NPCs they can't change. I'm no lawyer, but it strikes me as a neat little loophole. Besides, they would only be removed for players who aren't using them.
    billbisco
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437

    shawne said:



    Except they've already said they're not going to do that, so...

    Well, I think they should, so I'm suggesting it.
    shawne said:

    You don't see deleting Jaheira and Minsc from the game as altering original NPC content?

    Nope. It doesn't change their original dialogue lines in any way, and that's always been what's impressed to us as the thing about NPCs they can't change. I'm no lawyer, but it strikes me as a neat little loophole. Besides, they would only be removed for players who aren't using them.
    And wearing a glove while grabbing the ball in a football (soccer) match means you aren't using your hands.
    booinyoureyes
  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 307
    I think Beamdog need to write it so that there's plasticity to explain them turning up in the cells. For example I saw Imoen acting as an NPC in the demo presentation. Well maybe the other canon members can show up somehow on the periphery (actually maybe have them hanging around and recruitable in camp if they aren't in the party on import) and Irenicus ambushes everyone at a point where everyone canon is kind of together maybe during some sort of celebration at the end.

    Main problem I could see: Someone is dead/stoned/mazed! Oh dear! Well Forgotten Realms is pretty high fantasy. A mage did it actually works fine in this setting. Irenicus could even throw out a line saying "Have you recovered the remains of the others, they're connected to this Child of Bhaal" yada yada yada

    Anyway I think some attempt at an explanation for those not recruiting the canon party is better than nothing.
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361



    And wearing a glove while grabbing the ball in a football (soccer) match means you aren't using your hands.

    That doesn't in the slightest bear relevance to what was said. There is no dialogue preventing Irenicus dnapping up Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc, Dynaheir from outside of CHARNAME'S party.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    I am going for a third option:
    "No, let the devs do what they think is right."
    booinyoureyes
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    billbisco said:



    And wearing a glove while grabbing the ball in a football (soccer) match means you aren't using your hands.

    That doesn't in the slightest bear relevance to what was said. There is no dialogue preventing Irenicus dnapping up Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc, Dynaheir from outside of CHARNAME'S party.
    I was commenting on the "legal loophole" assertion that deleting characters from the game isn't altering NPC content, not on the possibility that Irenicus kidnapped J, K, D, & M outside of CHARNAME's party.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190



    And wearing a glove while grabbing the ball in a football (soccer) match means you aren't using your hands.

    Ah, but the goalie wears gloves and can touch the ball with his hands. Gotcha!

    But, in all seriousness, we've been told that the NPCs original stats and dialogue can't be altered. Having a script that vanishes them from the dungeon is neither of those things.
    AstroBryGuyVasculio
  • AramintaiAramintai Member Posts: 232
    edited July 2015


    But, in all seriousness, we've been told that the NPCs original stats and dialogue can't be altered. Having a script that vanishes them from the dungeon is neither of those things.

    I doubt Beamdog will ever do that, because if they were to remove Minsc and Jaheira from the dungeon it opens a whole other bag of worms, so to speak. All of their dialogues inside the dungeon and during the fight with Irenicus just outside of it will be gone too. Furthermore, they must be present somewhere in BG2 anyway otherwise it would certainly violate the original status of the game with them being present, so devs'd have to come up with an alternative story as to how and where the protagonist can meet them. They'd also have to come up with some alternative story and dialogues about how Jaheira learns of Khalid's death (originally she learns about it inside the dungeon). And while Dynaheir's death leaves a bit of room for interpretation as Minsc already knows about it, it still clearly implies that he and Dynaheir were captured by Irenicus, so it makes no sense for Minsc not to be in the dungeon, it being Irenicus' stronghold at that time. And if he's not then it's the same story as with Jaheira - too much deviation from their original plots.

  • Lysan_LurraxolLysan_Lurraxol Member Posts: 8
    Looking at the trailer, Beamdog appears to be writing content for at least 16 possible companions, which is double the length of either of the other, full-length Baldur's Gate successor games - Sword Coast Legends and Pillars of Eternity. Presumably they went for 8 companions due to development time constraints.

    I'd much rather Beamdog flesh out the large cast already included than try to fit in over 30 companions in a short game. Particularly as many of the companions not included have quality mods porting them into Baldur's Gate 2 already. I'm perfectly happy for Dynaheir, Khalid, and Safana to get the chance to shine.
    GallowglassFardragoncmk24lolien
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    @the_sextein As noted already in the thread:
    billbisco said:

    The appeal of Baldur's Gate is the ability to adventure the way you want to and with whom you want to. So yes it's very reasonable to ask for these things. ToB didn't kick out Haer'Dalis and Cernd because the Devs didn't have enough time to make epilogues and dialogues. Our BGEE NPCs deserve the same consideration for SoD.

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2015
    I don't find it to be a matter of having enough time. Bioware didn't bother writing epilogues and dialogues for the majority of BG1 NPC's because they had other plans that did not include them. When Mazzy wanted to leave the party so she could be with her sister I was cool with that. When I needed a certain party member in order to get into the planer sphere I made room. When Imoen disappeared for half the game I lived with it. When Yoshimo was killed off it was a powerful moment in the game. Keldorn needed to patch things up with his family. Honestly I think BG2 is better because of it.

    It's not like every party member you meet has nothing better to do than follow you all the way to the conclusion of TOB. It makes sense to me that Xzar and Monty would go on there own path investigating things for their superiors. When I ran into them agian in SOA I could have rejoined with them but Bioware had other plans. Now Dragonspear needs to set the stage. If I have Xzar and Monty in my group then Beamdog is going to have to find a way to force them out of my party if they want the game to make sense in BG2. They could use a cutscene at the end or they could push it earlier in the game. It's up to them though because they have everything to balance and consider. That is what artistic freedom is all about.
    Gallowglass
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @the_sextein
    You seem to be misunderstanding what's being requested. OP is asking to be able to finish SoD with availble SoD NPCs, not necessarily the whole saga.

    You can finish BG1 with Xzar and Monty.

    You can finish BG2 with Mazzy, Imoen, and Keldorn.

    OP is asking to be able to finish SOD with his SOD party, the same way you can finish BG1 and BG2 with your respective parties.
    billbisco
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2015
    They made no consideration of the BG1 party members to begin with which is why none of it made sense in BG2. Some of them disapeared, some of them showed up but no clue as to how you were separated or why they were even in Athkatla.

    BG2 did not have to consider what the characters were doing in BG3 and make adjustments properly either.

    Yes you can finish Baldur's gate 2 with everyone other than Yoshimo but it casts out characters like Xzar and Monty simply because that is how they wanted to do it with the new game. Dragonspear is a new game and they can force your whole party from BG1 to leave if they want to. It is the first game that is being made in-between games so they have more considerations to work around. They have to work within the constraints already set down by BG2. Some characters that you may not have in your party will have to appear in BG2 and some that you do have in your party must be seperated. You could use a generic cutscene that allows you to assume that any character from BG1 that was not cannon was killed off. Or they could have various characters with various interests go their separate ways so that all of the BG1 NPCs are not dead in BG2 and certain cannon characters are eased back into the party in order for it to make sense and have a little class as well.
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    edited July 2015
    BG2 is a different game than BG1. Although it pains me, they aren't required to have all BG1 NPCs in BG2 (although that is the best imo). Totsc did not remove NPCs. ToB did not remove NPCs. These were expansions. Expansions should add content not remove content (NPCs). SoD is an expansion. It should not remove NPCs either.
    Post edited by billbisco on
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    Also, read the earlier posts. There is no BG2 story necessity to prevent completing SoD before game end.
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2015
    Dragonspear is a different game as well and doesn't require all NPC's to be involved either but I am hoping that they atleast try to do a decent job explaining why certain characters are not present in BG2 and why some of them are. Doing that considering all of the party combinations and doing it after BG2 is already completed is going to be a serious challenge. while it is being labled an expansion it is being made 17 years later with the other games bookending it on each side. It is as big as most full length games and it doesn't have to confine itself to the way TOSC and TOB are. Just because previous expansions didn't do it does not mean that Dragonspear can't. The other games did do it and this one is more problems to work around then those other games.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Again, @the_sextein, you're not really getting it. billbisco mostly just wants to start SoD with a given party, we'll label them SoDParty1. He wants to go from the early part of SoD to the finale of SoD with that party, without Beamdog shoehorning Minsc into his party for the sake of explaining BG2's opening.

    E.g., if I have Dorn and Viconia in my party, and do not have Minsc of Jaheira, I don't want the story to kick Dorn and Viconia out of the party and force Minsc and Jaheira into it.
    billbisco
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437



    And wearing a glove while grabbing the ball in a football (soccer) match means you aren't using your hands.

    Ah, but the goalie wears gloves and can touch the ball with his hands. Gotcha!

    But, in all seriousness, we've been told that the NPCs original stats and dialogue can't be altered. Having a script that vanishes them from the dungeon is neither of those things.
    Your script assumes that if the player doesn't have Jaheira or Minsc in the party at the end of BGEE/SoD that they would *NEVER* want them in the party in BG2, since dropping them into the Copper Coronet would require altered dialog (new joining dialog and revising any dialogs with mentions of being in Chateau Irenicus with you).

    Also, the "no altered dialog" rule leaves out Edwin, Viconia, Ajantis, Coran, Safana, Faldorn, Garrick, Xzar, Montaron, Quayle, and Tiax from appearing in Chateau Irenicus, since they all have appearances in BG2. The only NPCs besides the canon party could add to Chateau Irenicus would be Alora, Branwen, Eldoth, Kagain, Kivan, Shar-Teel, Skie, Xan, and Yeslick.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @AstroBryGuy
    You're forgetting including SoD's new NPCs in BG2, which hasn't been confirmed as off the table.
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    edited July 2015

    billbisco said:

    SoD should allow players complete the entire game with characters of their choice. Both BGEE and BG2EE allow players to complete the entire game with a party of their choice; SoD should follow in those footsteps.

    That's not true.

    Yoshimo

    billbisco said:

    Good point that the above is a minor exception. There is still a way around that however.

    Actually, considering the number of intra-party conflicts that can end in fights to the death or one NPC leaving in disgust, there are lots more examples. If you want a party with Aerie, Korgan, Keldorn, and Viconia - you're going to have issues.
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited July 2015
    I'm getting it, I just don't think it's a reasonable thing to ask based on selfish desires. I am a fan like you are and I want a great game just like you. I would assume that Beamdog are fans like we are and do not want to be too intrusive. Choosing a path that is artistic and fun can be hard and requires some balance. You may or may not appreciate that balance but that is the reality that we have to live with. A petittion to shoehorn the developers into creating the game the way you want it instead of the way they want it does not make sense. I am sure they will try their best to satisfy us all and themselves. I have no worries.

    If it doesn't work out and you try it and dislike it then you could always petition for a change or mod the game yourself.
  • gnaumiecgnaumiec Member Posts: 62
    It seems like SoD has to at least remove some NPCs. Very little time passes between capture from Irenicus and escape from his dungeon. Some where along the line Tiax is imprisoned, Monty and Xzar travel to Amn, Safana and Coran adventure together, Garrick falls for a Paladin in Amn, Quayle joins the circus, Edwin gets in close with the shadow thieves, Viccy, according to romance diaglogue, tries to settle down near beregost dropping your name when needed... These are a few examples of why some NPCs need to be removed from your party before the end of SoD. There simply is not enough time between capture and escape to explain all of this.
    rorikoncmk24
  • switswit Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 495
    edited July 2015
    On the contrary, @billbisco. I will be overjoyed if someone from a circus troupe will show up right at the beginning of SoD to take Quayle (one of my favorite BG1 party members) with a simple dialogue that offers him leading the troupe to Athkatla. Hooray, one less loophole in BG2. If they leave it for the end cutscene than whole conversation with Quayle in BG2, where he is telling you how Aerie changed his life, still won't make sense (what? when? I had you in my end game SoD party and now you are operating a circus in Atkathla?). Same for Edwin becoming a high ranking member of Shadow Thiefs. In fact I hope that many NPCs that shows up in BG2 will leave the SoD party sooner than later, or that there is some other believable explanation.
    the_sexteincmk24Gallowglassgnaumiec
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    edited July 2015
    delete please
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437

    @AstroBryGuy
    You're forgetting including SoD's new NPCs in BG2, which hasn't been confirmed as off the table.

    It's been mentioned that they could be added to BG2EE at some point in the future (presumably as DLC), which would be great. I would love to see that. However, that's different than them replacing Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc, & Dynaheir in Chateau Irenicus.
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    Hi guys, was posted earlier in the thread with regards to timing.
    billbisco said:



    2. There will never be perfect timing. You can travel and rest months before reaching Nashkel. You can skip Sarevok's coronaation and spend some months hanging out on Wolfwere island and back. The gameplay doesn't change as a result because that would not be fun. The same logic should be applied to SoD.

    Consequently, one can probably beat BGEE in a few weeks if desired and probably SoD likewise. There is similarly no required gameplay or story reason to restrict options due to timing.

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