I believe that the Baldur's Gate series benefited a great deal from being the only game in town. Although marrying the game to the 2nd Edition AD&D ruleset made the game more recognizable and marketable, it was an unfortunate choice for a computer game. It is an unnecessary challenge for new gamers to acclimate to the wonky, inelegant, and arbitrary ruleset.
The writing was predictable and reminiscent of the myriad bland fantasy novels from the 80's. The game didn't know when to take itself seriously, with the result that it seemed forced and unnatural when it tried.
Now, this may be a little like complaining that a Model-T doesn't perform like a modern sports car. The modern sports car is an evolution from its predecessors. But modern games have learned at least as much from the faults in Baldur's Gate as they have from its successes.
the last chapter of sod is fine. it's emotional and shows how you rose and fell in the eyes of the citizens of the city. now the fact your going more south though out bg2 and tob makes alot more sense in hindsight.
Elves are still the most overused race in fantasy... EVER! I'veheard people claim that they hate dragons because they are overused in fantasy, but completely seem to be ok with elves.
Yes, but i think the self-indulgent use of humans is even worse imo^^
I mean they're always represented as the most populous, inventive and forward thinking race..Despite their short lifespan. And they always reproduce faster than the standard races.
No particular racial abilities that stand out either, despite the fact that it's a fantasy setting where you can tinker a bit..Writers always seem compelled to make humans as down to earth as possible.
I would rather a fantasy setting not have elves and dwarfs and hobb-halfings, etc. I would rather everyone be human, and have the cultural differences be explained the way they are in the real world...because people are from different cultures.
I think a lot of fantasy relies too much on "humans are X, elves are Y" and generalizes humans into generic white Western European medieval culture. All other RL cultures are translated into other races, which can be problematic.
Humanity is diverse enough in real life that we don't need fantastical analog race to represent us. Let humans be as diverse in fantasy as they are in the real world.
I agree. I still think fantasy can have elves and dwarves but it's mor fun when they are very mysterious and alien creatures, not just a different flavor of people.
I agree. I still think fantasy can have elves and dwarves but it's mor fun when they are very mysterious and alien creatures, not just a different flavor of people.
For my homebrew setting I use the Summer Court Seelie (High Elves) and the Winter Court Unseelie (Drow) in order to flavor them to be otherworldly (because they literally are not from that plane).
I would rather a fantasy setting not have elves and dwarfs and hobb-halfings, etc. I would rather everyone be human, and have the cultural differences be explained the way they are in the real world...because people are from different cultures.
I think a lot of fantasy relies too much on "humans are X, elves are Y" and generalizes humans into generic white Western European medieval culture. All other RL cultures are translated into other races, which can be problematic.
Humanity is diverse enough in real life that we don't need fantastical analog race to represent us. Let humans be as diverse in fantasy as they are in the real world.
I think the Forgotten Realms setting makes a better job of this than most. It has several different human factions, most of which are based on real world countries/cultures. The other races are independent of human influence in terms of Real Life.
I love Irenicus’s dungeon. Unless I’m just doing some mod testing, in which case the Dungeon Be Gone mod is a lifesaver.
But if I am settling in for a real play-through, it sets the stage perfectly for me. The atmosphere and ambient sounds, the music. Finding my protagonist caged by a mysterious madman. The welcome feeling of finding a few familiar faces. Scrounging around to find some suitable weapons and gear.
Solving a few puzzles while trying to solve the bigger one of who the heck this Irenicus is and what does he want with me. Then finally making my escape, breaking through to the surface and seeing the light of day once more. Glorious!
When I think of Forgotten Realms or generic fantasy, I think: dwarves have Scottish accents, love beer, metal work, have horned helmets. Drow are universally evil (except for the special snowflake good ones now), other elves are haughty and vain but despite being much more powerful than humans are slowly dying out. Gnomes are pranksters who love tinkering and illusion magic.
That is the stereotype I have for all of them, regardless of what nation each of those races are from. It's very surface level characteristics and generally it doesn't seem like there's a lot more to them.
Using these racial tropes frees writers from the burden of actually having to make a realistic and nuanced culture for their world. They can rely on these stereotypes and not challenge themselves to be more realistic in writing characters.
I would rather a fantasy setting not have elves and dwarfs and hobb-halfings, etc. I would rather everyone be human, and have the cultural differences be explained the way they are in the real world...because people are from different cultures.
I think a lot of fantasy relies too much on "humans are X, elves are Y" and generalizes humans into generic white Western European medieval culture. All other RL cultures are translated into other races, which can be problematic.
Humanity is diverse enough in real life that we don't need fantastical analog race to represent us. Let humans be as diverse in fantasy as they are in the real world.
I think the Forgotten Realms setting makes a better job of this than most. It has several different human factions, most of which are based on real world countries/cultures. The other races are independent of human influence in terms of Real Life.
True, the human nations are more diverse. But it feels to me like humans are diverse and all other races share the same traits, regardless of where they live. This is probably me not knowing a lot about FR lore other than what I've gotten from the games. But I feel like racial tropes are an easy way to provide cheap characterisation. A writer could say "hey that halfling is going to be a friendly fellow, if a bit quick fingered" instead of saying "okay, now what is this person going to be like? I have to write them from scratch instead of using a racial stereotype." YMMV
I love Irenicus’s dungeon. Unless I’m just doing some mod testing, in which case the Dungeon Be Gone mod is a lifesaver.
But if I am settling in for a real play-through, it sets the stage perfectly for me. The atmosphere and ambient sounds, the music. Finding my protagonist caged by a mysterious madman. The welcome feeling of finding a few familiar faces. Scrounging around to find some suitable weapons and gear.
Solving a few puzzles while trying to solve the bigger one of who the heck this Irenicus is and what does he want with me. Then finally making my escape, breaking through to the surface and seeing the light of day once more. Glorious!
The only thing I don't like in the Chateau is its steampunk appearence. I don't feel in an AD&D dungeon at all.
The only thing I don't like in the Chateau is its steampunk appearence. I don't feel in an AD&D dungeon at all.
Baldur's Gate in general has a lot of steampunk to it. The Haluraan airship quest from the first game, the prototype submarine in Waukeen's Promenade, just the fact that a mercantile guild would also be a major political force as well feels like something from the Age of Sail at the earliest...honestly, it makes it so that the Planar Sphere doesn't feel nearly as out of place as you'd think it would be.
@Abi_Dalzim I can completely understand that. I was pretty into the world, but I just couldn't stand any of th characters, nor could I bring myself to care about the plot.
As I'm replaying BGII after playing Pillars of Eternity I'm realizing just how poorly traps are done. First of all, they're EVERYWHERE, and often in nonsensical places. Why is the sewer trapped? Think of the poor maintenance workers. And who traps their dresser?
The other problem is that it takes too long to find the trap. If you miss a roll you have to wait another six seconds. Usually, I have my thief in the back of my party, so simply getting him in to position and disabling a trap that I know is there could take half a minute.
Because traps could be anywhere, there are so many of them, and it takes so long to detect, the pacing suffers greatly. To compare with PoE, if you have a character with sufficient mechanics somewhere in you party, traps are revealed almost instantaneously, and they're always in sensible places. If traps were relegated to certain places, such as Durlag's tower or the thief labyrinth, they would provide a unique challenge, rather than just being a constant nuisance.
One description I read of it said that it had magnificently rich and detailed worldbuilding, but used that immersive world to tell a soap opera.
You mean it wasn't supposed to be soap opera? I never watched it personally, but based on everything I read and hear, I thought it was a fantasy soap opera. Then people try to get me to watch it because "it has dragons in it." I swear people think I'll watch/play anything just because it has dragons in it. Nope, I know how to google and I'll just google about the dragons, I care less about human politics yadda yadda...
When I think of Forgotten Realms or generic fantasy, I think: dwarves have Scottish accents, love beer, metal work, have horned helmets. Drow are universally evil (except for the special snowflake good ones now), other elves are haughty and vain but despite being much more powerful than humans are slowly dying out. Gnomes are pranksters who love tinkering and illusion magic.
That is the stereotype I have for all of them, regardless of what nation each of those races are from. It's very surface level characteristics and generally it doesn't seem like there's a lot more to them.
Using these racial tropes frees writers from the burden of actually having to make a realistic and nuanced culture for their world. They can rely on these stereotypes and not challenge themselves to be more realistic in writing characters.
Please tell me you're joking? So basically scrap any idea of creativity, and jut run with the "what has been done a thousand times!" I can't even put into words how boring that is and how fast that would turn me away from fantasy. The problem with elves is that most settings use the Tolkien template and leave it at that so they end up generic and boring. As said before, if all these content creators would get off of Tolkien's -beep- the fantasy genre could expand into something much more. I lik tolkien as much as the next fantasy artist/fan, but I've grown quite tired of the constant safety net that people use his elves for.
I would rather a fantasy setting not have elves and dwarfs and hobb-halfings, etc. I would rather everyone be human, and have the cultural differences be explained the way they are in the real world...because people are from different cultures.
I think a lot of fantasy relies too much on "humans are X, elves are Y" and generalizes humans into generic white Western European medieval culture. All other RL cultures are translated into other races, which can be problematic.
Humanity is diverse enough in real life that we don't need fantastical analog race to represent us. Let humans be as diverse in fantasy as they are in the real world.
I think the Forgotten Realms setting makes a better job of this than most. It has several different human factions, most of which are based on real world countries/cultures. The other races are independent of human influence in terms of Real Life.
I'm still waiting on someone to point out what nation in DnD in general is based on a south, east, or west african nation. Zulu, Oyo, Igbo? anyone? Only fantasy based game that I know of that comes anywhere close to this was Shadowrun. But dammit it... Zulu elves... just why?
The Elder Scrolls have more interesting elves, because they do their own thing with them.
People hate on elderscrolls but they do a lot of things right, their lore for one. It is obvious it is influenced by real world mythology because it is forever changing. A lot of games lore just give it to you straight! This happened, or this may have happened. TES, nope You'll read 3 different books by questionable authors, talking about the same situation, three different freaking ways, but they all came to the same ending.
I'm still waiting on someone to point out what nation in DnD in general is based on a south, east, or west african nation. Zulu, Oyo, Igbo? anyone? Only fantasy based game that I know of that comes anywhere close to this was Shadowrun. But dammit it... Zulu elves... just why?
Closest would be the continent Zakhara of the Al-Qadim campaign setting. Though it's more famous for its North Africa/Middle East flavour. That is to say, half of it consists of jungle infested isle chains that show signs of East African or maybe Madagascaran culture to some extend. While other locations have a more distinct Indian resemblance if I remember correctly.
Outside of D&D, there recently was a successesful kickstarter campaign of an African fantasy action RPG called Aurion: Legacy of the Kori-Odan which may be of interest to you.
@Kamigoroshi That literally has to e the first kickstarter that I've literally been interested in... I that yellow dress was a reference to the Orisha Oshun!
When I think of Forgotten Realms or generic fantasy, I think: dwarves have Scottish accents, love beer, metal work, have horned helmets. Drow are universally evil (except for the special snowflake good ones now), other elves are haughty and vain but despite being much more powerful than humans are slowly dying out. Gnomes are pranksters who love tinkering and illusion magic.
That is the stereotype I have for all of them, regardless of what nation each of those races are from. It's very surface level characteristics and generally it doesn't seem like there's a lot more to them.
Using these racial tropes frees writers from the burden of actually having to make a realistic and nuanced culture for their world. They can rely on these stereotypes and not challenge themselves to be more realistic in writing characters.
Please tell me you're joking? So basically scrap any idea of creativity, and jut run with the "what has been done a thousand times!" I can't even put into words how boring that is and how fast that would turn me away from fantasy. The problem with elves is that most settings use the Tolkien template and leave it at that so they end up generic and boring. As said before, if all these content creators would get off of Tolkien's -beep- the fantasy genre could expand into something much more. I lik tolkien as much as the next fantasy artist/fan, but I've grown quite tired of the constant safety net that people use his elves for.
You completely misinterpreted my point. I'm saying because there are these racial stereotypes, writers can rely on them instead of actually being creative. It's a BAD thing, not something I'm advocating
Comments
The writing was predictable and reminiscent of the myriad bland fantasy novels from the 80's. The game didn't know when to take itself seriously, with the result that it seemed forced and unnatural when it tried.
Now, this may be a little like complaining that a Model-T doesn't perform like a modern sports car. The modern sports car is an evolution from its predecessors. But modern games have learned at least as much from the faults in Baldur's Gate as they have from its successes.
I mean they're always represented as the most populous, inventive and forward thinking race..Despite their short lifespan. And they always reproduce faster than the standard races.
No particular racial abilities that stand out either, despite the fact that it's a fantasy setting where you can tinker a bit..Writers always seem compelled to make humans as down to earth as possible.
I would rather a fantasy setting not have elves and dwarfs and hobb-halfings, etc. I would rather everyone be human, and have the cultural differences be explained the way they are in the real world...because people are from different cultures.
I think a lot of fantasy relies too much on "humans are X, elves are Y" and generalizes humans into generic white Western European medieval culture. All other RL cultures are translated into other races, which can be problematic.
Humanity is diverse enough in real life that we don't need fantastical analog race to represent us. Let humans be as diverse in fantasy as they are in the real world.
The Elder Scrolls have more interesting elves, because they do their own thing with them.
I love Irenicus’s dungeon. Unless I’m just doing some mod testing, in which case the Dungeon Be Gone mod is a lifesaver.
But if I am settling in for a real play-through, it sets the stage perfectly for me. The atmosphere and ambient sounds, the music. Finding my protagonist caged by a mysterious madman. The welcome feeling of finding a few familiar faces. Scrounging around to find some suitable weapons and gear.
Solving a few puzzles while trying to solve the bigger one of who the heck this Irenicus is and what does he want with me. Then finally making my escape, breaking through to the surface and seeing the light of day once more. Glorious!
When I think of Forgotten Realms or generic fantasy, I think: dwarves have Scottish accents, love beer, metal work, have horned helmets. Drow are universally evil (except for the special snowflake good ones now), other elves are haughty and vain but despite being much more powerful than humans are slowly dying out. Gnomes are pranksters who love tinkering and illusion magic.
That is the stereotype I have for all of them, regardless of what nation each of those races are from. It's very surface level characteristics and generally it doesn't seem like there's a lot more to them.
Using these racial tropes frees writers from the burden of actually having to make a realistic and nuanced culture for their world. They can rely on these stereotypes and not challenge themselves to be more realistic in writing characters.
The other problem is that it takes too long to find the trap. If you miss a roll you have to wait another six seconds. Usually, I have my thief in the back of my party, so simply getting him in to position and disabling a trap that I know is there could take half a minute.
Because traps could be anywhere, there are so many of them, and it takes so long to detect, the pacing suffers greatly. To compare with PoE, if you have a character with sufficient mechanics somewhere in you party, traps are revealed almost instantaneously, and they're always in sensible places. If traps were relegated to certain places, such as Durlag's tower or the thief labyrinth, they would provide a unique challenge, rather than just being a constant nuisance.
what was I talking about again? Please tell me you're joking? So basically scrap any idea of creativity, and jut run with the "what has been done a thousand times!" I can't even put into words how boring that is and how fast that would turn me away from fantasy. The problem with elves is that most settings use the Tolkien template and leave it at that so they end up generic and boring. As said before, if all these content creators would get off of Tolkien's -beep- the fantasy genre could expand into something much more. I lik tolkien as much as the next fantasy artist/fan, but I've grown quite tired of the constant safety net that people use his elves for.
I'm still waiting on someone to point out what nation in DnD in general is based on a south, east, or west african nation. Zulu, Oyo, Igbo? anyone? Only fantasy based game that I know of that comes anywhere close to this was Shadowrun. But dammit it... Zulu elves... just why? People hate on elderscrolls but they do a lot of things right, their lore for one. It is obvious it is influenced by real world mythology because it is forever changing. A lot of games lore just give it to you straight! This happened, or this may have happened. TES, nope You'll read 3 different books by questionable authors, talking about the same situation, three different freaking ways, but they all came to the same ending.
Edit: Blargh, formatting errors.
Closest would be the continent Zakhara of the Al-Qadim campaign setting. Though it's more famous for its North Africa/Middle East flavour. That is to say, half of it consists of jungle infested isle chains that show signs of East African or maybe Madagascaran culture to some extend. While other locations have a more distinct Indian resemblance if I remember correctly.
Outside of D&D, there recently was a successesful kickstarter campaign of an African fantasy action RPG called Aurion: Legacy of the Kori-Odan which may be of interest to you.
That literally has to e the first kickstarter that I've literally been interested in... I that yellow dress was a reference to the Orisha Oshun!
I honestly was hoping that i was, because that would've made me bash my head against my keyboard.