Mage dueled to Figher or Thief (Early)
shwhit87
Member Posts: 3
Hi all
Just wondered if anyone had played Baldur's Gate with a mage that they then dueled to a figher or theif early on (like level 2). This would give you access to some first level spells and (i believe) the ability to use all mage only items while becoming a decent fighter. Anyone tried this? See any issues with it?
Just wondered if anyone had played Baldur's Gate with a mage that they then dueled to a figher or theif early on (like level 2). This would give you access to some first level spells and (i believe) the ability to use all mage only items while becoming a decent fighter. Anyone tried this? See any issues with it?
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Any first level spell worth casting only improves by leveling up, except for identify which is easily replaced with either items or scrolls or a decent bard.
I guess it would allow you to use wands and scrolls but those are for hoarding only.
So, I would have to say, what would be the point. It would be better to at least get a couple of second or third level spells casts for invisibility, mirror image and the like.
Disagree on Wands and Scrolls btw... Use those bad boys!
(1) Can cast in armor
(2) Sanctuary keeps you alive as a lvl 1 prayer
(3) Level 2 prayers, chant and draw upon holy might, are always relevant
(4) The kits are useful. Helm gives you a +4 sword in BG1, and true sight. Both are great. Lathander gives +1 apr for about 3ish rounds because of the early dual class. Both are good to have.
Compared to a low level mage spells? The big problem there is going to be lack of armor for low powered spells.
With find familiar, you wouldn't take too big of a hit on the HPs so there isn't too much downside if you want to play a non-kitted fighter but the upside isn't too great being able to use these abilities either. If I were going to run with this I would lean towards @Grum's advice with the Helm and Lathander kits rather than going the mage route since those abilities are better than any first level mage spells by a long shot unless it is really the wands that you want.
In fairness, if you use the wands a lot they are quite powerful and their near instant use allows you to get your attacks in during the same round.
In BG2, things would get a little more complicated. BG2 has tons of amazing scrolls, and a powerful new wand in the form of the Wand of Spell Striking, plus the Golem Manual. But you'll probably already have a normal mage in BG2, since they're so strong in general, and that will soak up the best scrolls. Also, most wands aren't quite as strong in BG2, as the enemies get tougher while the wands stay the same.
Still, the Mage->Fighter is a sight better than a single-classed fighter once you recover your mage levels. You lose a small amount of HP, but the wands will help you out a lot in BG1, and the HP loss won't be noticeable in BG2.
You'd probably find a Fighter/Mage multi-class more fun. It's a little more versatile, and requires no boring dual-class downtime.
In BG2 it would allow you to use the amulet of power which is useful to go in melee with vampires.
Also in BG2, with Vailhor's helm fighters can cast simulacrum; your simulacrum could cast timestop, meteor swarm, black blade of disaster and other big spells from scroll without actually using up the scolls.
SCS definitely prevents it, though I think all versions of SCS make that component optional--you can still use the exploit if you like. I assume IR also does it, since @Demivrgvs is big on game balance stuffs. Did EE fix it, too?
The SCS fix, though, only stops the clone from using quick item slots. The clone can still benefit from items like the Robe of Vecna, Belm, Carsomyr, Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, and Ring of the Ram. It might be different in Spell Revisions or some other mod.
I especially like the idea behind such a character: "I've made a decision that may well change the course of my adventuring life: never mind my arcane studies, I'm going to train myself as a fighter! I mean I'm all alone, I've got almost no gold, no one to tutor me in magical arts, and besides, that armor must have been left there for a reason. "
If you read all the thread, you'll get even more ideas about why a mage can dual to a fighter.
Also, if you read the thread, it's becoming clear that such a character is much more versatile than a fighter: he can use wands and scrolls that are sold. There're a lot of scrolls in the game, so this character is not weak. I remember @bbear completed BG+BG2 with a level 1 character using scrolls and items, so a mage dualled to a fighter can be a good force.
As mage dualed to thief I like blur, invisibility, strength, larlochs minor drain, ghost armor, shield, invisibility 10' and charm person spells. A few too many choices really.
Mage dualed to fighter really is fun with the touch spells, chill touch, ghoul touch, etcetera.
@subtledoctor SCS desn't forces those changes, but it doesn't exploit the spells by default (with or without SR). Otoh, aVENGER did a few similar things within his mods (e.g. preventing Mislead's clones from using bjects, singing Bard's songs, etc.).
@Francois you do have a point albeit what you say applies to Simulacrum, but not to the other illusionary clones.
BG only has all the equipment duplicated for ease of use - both for the people making the game and those playing it. In a RP setting, you would never see epic level items recreated by this.
Sum Gai: "You can do X. It's really powerful."
Sum Yahu: "Come on. Why not do Y and Z, while we're at it? They're just as silly and overpowered. Let's stick to A, B, and C. It's better that way."
Sum Gai: "Hey, it's the player's choice."
Sum Yahu: "I'm not saying otherwise. I just think we should get rid of X, Y, and Z. The game is more realistic and balanced that way."
Then the last three lines get repeated several times, the argument dies a slow and painful death, and everybody goes home unhappy.
About Vailhor's helm, if you're a high level fighter you will have high-level weapons, armors and items. A naked simulacrum (or one equiped with mundane items) would be completely useless most of the game. And if it can reproduce epic weapons, there's no reason it souldn't reproduce other epic objects.
It is even more apparent when you think about something like a Time Stop scroll for a 16th level Wizard. The Wizard can't cast Time Stop. He doesn't have Time Stop in his spell book. He can use the scroll once and it is gone forever. With simulacrum abuse, he can not only use it over and over he is somehow using an 8th level spell (or 7th with projected image) to replicate a 9th level spell that he is not capable of doing. This gets even more obvious with epic level items like just spontaneously replicating the Robe of Vecna, the Rift Device, etc. The Wizard can't make those items. He is incapable of reproducing them in temporary or permanent form. But he is capable of using a scroll for chain contingency and producing 4 versions of himself all wearing fully functioning Robes of Vecna and each wielding a Rift Device, a Time Stop scroll and a Rod of Resurrection that can be activated for the length of time that the projected image remains.
IMO, it is a clear video game conceit that wouldn't be tolerated by any respectable DM.
Basically, you add an effect to Simulacrum that casts two extra spells. The first spell grants immunity to the second, and applies to all creatures on the map. The second spell triggers 1 second later, and affects an area--so, the second spell affects only the simulacrum itself, but not any other creatures (unless you summon something within that 1-second delay).
That second spell creates custom dummy items to fill up the simulacrum's item slots. The dummy items overwrite all of the items in the clone's inventory, and give the clone a simple weapon (you could use .eff files to tweak it according to the clone's class) which would have an enchantment bonus dependent on the caster's level.
The spell I used was vastly more complicated, since there were lots of other things it had to do, but that's basically it. It's not a great fix, but it would allow you to create a simulacrum without any items that would still be useful for fighter types.
I do agree that the spell as usable in the game can make the character more powerfull then intended, and I understand people who don't like it. But in my mind it's still arguably possible even if it goes against the original D&D rules. You are after all a demigod in this game and you can have a headcanon that all the cheese you do is just some of your innate power. Even if it's your companions doing impossible things it could just be due to your aura of Divine Cheeseness.
Incidentally, Sum Gai is "some guy;" Sum Yahu is "some yahoo." I thought the names sounded funny.
Personally, if I were the developers and I would strip the simalcrum of quick items entirely and replace equipment with non-magical versions of whatever they had equiped. They would be death on wheels against PfMW.
Sure, if you want to mod these things out, more power to you, but I see no reason to mod out features (I don't really know whether they are intentionally or unintentionally possible) that I can refrain myself from using.
Moreover I don't actually see the benefit of simulacra using items either; they can cast the same spells from memory (if memorized) and they would be stronger anyhow.
Not sure why simulacra are even brought up and discussed in a thread about dualing at a level way before you would actually be able to memorise them. Well... I guess it started with vhailor...