Yeah, I suppose that could work. I personally am not a fan of the Beast Claw thing but that is up to you, mostly because of the frequency of its effects actually taking hold. An increase in 10% would go a long way.
My idea for a rework of Beast Claw would be the following:
Beast Claw: once per day and increasing in use for every five levels, the Malarite can transform his hands into bestial talons. These talons allow the Malarite to attack 2 times per round and increase in power over time. At level 1 they are act as +1 weapons and do 1d6 damage + strength bonuses, at level 5 they inflict bleeding damage over time ...level 10 +2 weapons, etc...something like that.
Yeah I agree - if the beast claw is being moved away from the (already powerful) Shapeshifter and to a Malarite priest with fewer other abilities, then the ragged, filthy claws should cause some kind of disease effect fairly often. We can definitely boost the ability.
BTW. In the next iteration will the Plant sphere be fixed? for example nature's wrath as well as summon shambling mound in addition to summon shadow creatures? I really wanted to play a minion of Moander but having Focus in the Plant sphere with its two most powerful spells not working atm was a bit of a turn off.
It kinda depends on what you mean by "iteration..." We've already gone through three internal iterations since yesterday so things are moving... but we can't say when particular fixes or improvements will be done.
Btw I suggest playing with Spell Revisions the next time you do a mod install... Demi's Summon Shadow spell is great, and the SR Summon Shambling Mound is great as well. (I think the latter might become a 7th level spell - I seem to recall that the SR Shambler is more powerful than the 6th-level elemental summons...)
Yeah, I suppose that could work. I personally am not a fan of the Beast Claw thing but that is up to you, mostly because of the frequency of its effects actually taking hold. An increase in 10% would go a long way.
My idea for a rework of Beast Claw would be the following:
Beast Claw: once per day and increasing in use for every five levels, the Malarite can transform his hands into bestial talons. These talons allow the Malarite to attack 2 times per round and increase in power over time. At level 1 they are act as +1 weapons and do 1d6 damage + strength bonuses, at level 5 they inflict bleeding damage over time ...level 10 +2 weapons, etc...something like that.
Yeah I agree - if the beast claw is being moved away from the (already powerful) Shapeshifter and to a Malarite priest with fewer other abilities, then the ragged, filthy claws should cause some kind of disease effect fairly often. We can definitely boost the ability.
BTW. In the next iteration will the Plant sphere be fixed? for example nature's wrath as well as summon shambling mound in addition to summon shadow creatures? I really wanted to play a minion of Moander but having Focus in the Plant sphere with its two most powerful spells not working atm was a bit of a turn off.
It kinda depends on what you mean by "iteration..." We've already gone through three internal iterations since yesterday so things are moving... but we can't say when particular fixes or improvements will be done.
Btw I suggest playing with Spell Revisions the next time you do a mod install... Demi's Summon Shadow spell is great, and the SR Summon Shambling Mound is great as well. (I think the latter might become a 7th level spell - I seem to recall that the SR Shambler is more powerful than the 6th-level elemental summons...)
I just attempted to install it and all I get is a message that the game is not BG2, weird.
So I installed SP and there are definitely some spell revisions but the Plant Sphere, Shambling Mounds as well as Nature's Wrath just does not work still. Would it be possible to look at this prior to releasing the next one?
So I installed SP and there are definitely some spell revisions but the Plant Sphere, Shambling Mounds as well as Nature's Wrath just does not work still. Would it be possible to look at this prior to releasing the next one?
Hmm, I updated stalker, but i think i still need to update nature's wrath and the hla shambling mound transformation. Those two spells are, unfortunately, really messed up and need a top down revision (whereas stalker was an easy fix).
Stalker is revised in version...0.67a, which hasn't been 'officially' released, but can be downloaded. The minion should also be immune to assassin vines in that version
It's weird, the Shambler transformation spells were taken from an HLA in my old druid mod, which used to work perfectly. Of course, that was back on BGT/BG2EEv1.2. So who knows what might have changed since then.
Anyway, I've snuck in another update with under-the-hood improvements: I added the Exploration, Spirit, and Damnation spheres to the sphere system. No kits actually have access to these spheres - we'll get around to that soon. I just put the code in, to enable access.
Feedback: please let us know if you can think of a title for that sphere that you like better. Options I'm tossing around in my head are "Damnation," "Perdition," and "Abyssal..." but that last one is weird, because it's an adjective and every other sphere is a noun. And "Abyss" doesn't really work.
On this Abyssal/Damnation sphere: it doesn't really have any spells yet. Only Cacofiend and Summon Fiend, which summon Tanar'ri. It also has Beltyn's Burning Blood, Shroud of Flame, and Malavon's Rage, but those are IWDEE-only spells so we need to bring them over manually.
More feedback: I'm thinking of letting this sphere only have spells of 4th level or higher. The idea being, there is no such thing as "minor access" to this sphere. The rough idea of a Demonologist is that they discover forbidden, powerful magic... so it doesn't make much sense to me to include magic that isn't powerful. Also, consider that the Demonologist could have focus access to this sphere, in which case their spell list would look like this:
EDIT - these three new spheres don't have HLAs yet. I forgot to add the Shaman HLA to the Spirit sphere, and we need to come up with HLAs for the other two. Hmm... what would an "Exploration" HLA look like?
It's weird, the Shambler transformation spells were taken from an HLA in my old druid mod, which used to work perfectly. Of course, that was back on BGT/BG2EEv1.2. So who knows what might have changed since then.
Anyway, I've snuck in another update with under-the-hood improvements: I added the Exploration, Spirit, and Damnation spheres to the sphere system. No kits actually have access to these spheres - we'll get around to that soon. I just put the code in, to enable access.
Feedback: please let us know if you can think of a title for that sphere that you like better. Options I'm tossing around in my head are "Damnation," "Perdition," and "Abyssal..." but that last one is weird, because it's an adjective and every other sphere is a noun. And "Abyss" doesn't really work.
On this Abyssal/Damnation sphere: it doesn't really have any spells yet. Only Cacofiend and Summon Fiend, which summon Tanar'ri. It also has Beltyn's Burning Blood, Shroud of Flame, and Malavon's Rage, but those are IWDEE-only spells so we need to bring them over manually.
More feedback: I'm thinking of letting this sphere only have spells of 4th level or higher. The idea being, there is no such thing as "minor access" to this sphere. The rough idea of a Demonologist is that they discover forbidden, powerful magic... so it doesn't make much sense to me to include magic that isn't powerful. Also, consider that the Demonologist could have focus access to this sphere, in which case their spell list would look like this:
EDIT - these three new spheres don't have HLAs yet. I forgot to add the Shaman HLA to the Spirit sphere, and we need to come up with HLAs for the other two. Hmm... what would an "Exploration" HLA look like?
Stygian refers to the river Styx, which flows through all the lower planes. That could be one.
I have found that when I install spell revisions before FnP, I lose some of the special abilities for kits in FnP. So I am not convinced that SR and FnP play nice together.
It's weird, the Shambler transformation spells were taken from an HLA in my old druid mod, which used to work perfectly. Of course, that was back on BGT/BG2EEv1.2. So who knows what might have changed since then.
Anyway, I've snuck in another update with under-the-hood improvements: I added the Exploration, Spirit, and Damnation spheres to the sphere system. No kits actually have access to these spheres - we'll get around to that soon. I just put the code in, to enable access.
Feedback: please let us know if you can think of a title for that sphere that you like better. Options I'm tossing around in my head are "Damnation," "Perdition," and "Abyssal..." but that last one is weird, because it's an adjective and every other sphere is a noun. And "Abyss" doesn't really work.
On this Abyssal/Damnation sphere: it doesn't really have any spells yet. Only Cacofiend and Summon Fiend, which summon Tanar'ri. It also has Beltyn's Burning Blood, Shroud of Flame, and Malavon's Rage, but those are IWDEE-only spells so we need to bring them over manually.
More feedback: I'm thinking of letting this sphere only have spells of 4th level or higher. The idea being, there is no such thing as "minor access" to this sphere. The rough idea of a Demonologist is that they discover forbidden, powerful magic... so it doesn't make much sense to me to include magic that isn't powerful. Also, consider that the Demonologist could have focus access to this sphere, in which case their spell list would look like this:
EDIT - these three new spheres don't have HLAs yet. I forgot to add the Shaman HLA to the Spirit sphere, and we need to come up with HLAs for the other two. Hmm... what would an "Exploration" HLA look like?
Maybe I'm wrong about shambler. The scope of this mod is such that I'm confusing spells. There are a few mound spells.
As for spheres, i think it would be good to have both an Abyssal and Infernal spheres. I need to research the lore, but i suspect that @Kamigoroshi is right about the differences between the demonologist and diabolist. The kits seem distinct enough to have two occultist kits, one for each with their different focuses. (They also seem interesting enough that They deserve their own kits). I think this is worth another look:
I always viewed that summoning fiendish entities was more the Demonologist's forte. The Diabolist on the other hand could stand their ground with hellfire and using suggestions/charms for manipulating the weak willed. It may also be interesting to look at spells which have a good affinity with the Dukes of the Nine Hells.
Dispater for instance is ruling the Iron city of Dis. Naturally, the best spell to represent him would be Iron Body.
Bel is a well known warlord and great commander of the Blood War. He could grant the Diabolist some martial boons in form of Armor or Strength.
Baalzebul, being the lovely Lord of Flies he is, may be particularly interested in granting Insect Plague.
Mammon on the other hand is greedy and lustful. Spells which influence the mind, such as Dire Charm, are probably one of his favourites.
The father/daughter couple Belial and Fierna have each their own specialities. But I'd say the two of them like fire and suffering all the same. Beltyn's Burning Blood seems like a nice choice here.
Levistus is a bit trickier, given his imprisonment in ice. His cultists are called bladereavers though. So having blade-like spells such as Blade Barrier may do the trick.
Mephistopheles rules a frigid layer of infinite winter. Any cold-based spell would do here, such as Cone of Cold.
Asmodeus is known as the most cunning archdevil and keeper of ancient secrets. I'm sure Contact Other Plane would fit like a glove for him.
Also, Cacofiend summons an Nabassu. Having an Diabolist summon a Tanar'ri seems like a unhealthy choice in many ways.
One thing: the one spell that i won't be bringing over from iwdee in some form--unless i get a lot of help from someone that is a) a good writer, and b) knows bgee/sod/bg2ee lore really well--is @AWizardDidIt willing?-- is contact other plane. The spell won't work without a lot of decent, knowledgeable, dialog.
Anyway, the diabolist may get their power from the particular 'pact' they sign, though their main sphere can be whatever spells would make sense if shared by all devil pacts-- it's devils, right?
They need not have summoning-- summoning demons can be the demonologist's thing. I can fill in any spell gaps.
Related, I'm starting to add iwdee mage spells in b_spells, and yeah, a lot of them fit. As for low level spells, I think There is always room.
I have found that when I install spell revisions before FnP, I lose some of the special abilities for kits in FnP. So I am not convinced that SR and FnP play nice together.
!
Can you be more specific? Which abilities are lost?
It's in the github master commit, v0.68. But like I say, while the spheres are defined in the code, there are no kits actually using them yet. So you'll never see them in-game.
Btw it's worth mentioning this, which may be controversial: I've put Free Action at 3rd level in the exploration sphere. That's pretty low, and it's a pretty great spell... but this way priests can have access to the spell without having major access to Exploration. Otherwise, a lot of clerics would lose access to a pretty important spell.
Thoughts?
As to actually implementing these: we need to patch the sphere access code for close to 100 kits... it's gonna take a while. As for what will actually happen: I figure lots of kits will get minor access to exploration, while only a few will get major access. (High level Exploration spells are stuff like: Dimension Door, Teleport Field, Freedom, etc.)
The Spirit sphere is an interesting case; it has the 7 Shaman-only spells from the 2.0 update. I'm not sure who should have access to these spells. Maybe mystics, maybe Kelemvor and Myrkul, maybe Shar... certainly not many kits.
Finally, the fiendish sphere is there, structurally, but most of the spells in it still need to be created or imported from IWDEE. Once the spells are in, I only really see the Demonologist having access to it. And the Demonologist doesn't exist yet, we'll need to create that.
Stygian refers to the river Styx, which flows through all the lower planes. That could be one.
I like that... the only thing that gives me pause is, in common parlance "stygian" generally means cold/dark, whereas most of these spells are about fire & brimstone. That's why my initial urge was "Infernal/Inferno."
Regarding free action: Doesn't seem like a big deal, but i could be overlooking something.
Spirit: I'm really not sure. What is a ' spirit'? I think of it as a platonic form. E.g. a spirit snake is not the ' ghost of an actual snake' but more like the 'essence of snakeyness', a newly and more 'pure' copy of the 'Form of Snake'. It probably wouldn't be within the purview of any of the gods, but exclusive to certain non-deity kits.
OK. I installed SR and the FnP in BG2EE. I started a new game with an Acolyte of Beshaba. The doom ability is not there to use.
Hmm... the SR version might have a different structure than vanilla, causing GS's edits to fail. Actually I'm not sure what GS is doing with that code, it's pretty complicated. Looks like edited various aspects of the spell by hand instead of using ALTER_SPELL_HEADER and ADD_SPELL_CFEFFECT...
EDIT actually, the FnP code moves the 'location' for the Doom ability from spells to innate abilities... but it only does so for the first header. If the SR version has more headers, and you are higher level (testing on SoD or BG2EE?) then it would be missing from the innates button, and probably showing up under spells instead.
Doesn't look too difficult to fix, I'll just confirm with GS what the intended alterations are.
Ahhh. That sounds right...*checking*. Yeah, that's it. Not sure why i didn't use ALTER_SPELL_HEADER...
Does that mean that in the latest iteration there is a working Cleric of Umberlee kit?
Yup. It is incomplete, however. The only special it has is focus in the water sphere (while being a cleric, not an acolyte). I believe that Tenga(sp?) will automatically have that kit if she is installed
Again, both the Diabolist and Demonologist are a part of DnD. True they may have not been around since AD&D. But neither did so the Ur-Priest, for instance. So I fail to see any reason as to why both class themes couldn't be used as a base for new custom kits as well. I agree with Grammarsalad that just throwing some random summons in would make for rather poorly constructed spheres. Which is why I already suggested 7 alternatives.
Other inspirations for sphere spells and kit abilities may come from the actual fiend cultist prc's. Such as Disciple of Asmodeus or Thrall of Orcus. All archdevils have their own disciples. Same as the major demon princes with their thralls. Planescape also had a kit called Abyssal Warrior which may be of some use.
So, just to be clear, I'm not speaking from any kind of canonical position here; but neither is Kamigoroshi. There was no such thing as a "Diabolist" or "Demonologist" in 2E or Planescape; those are inventions of later editions or even other games altogether. And in my defense I never played any 1E either. I only know the denizens of Baator as "Baatezu," and the denizens of The Abyss as "Tanar'ri." I never called fiends "devils" or "demons" - those two terms seem fairly interchangeable to me, and to this day, even in the context of D&D, I tend to mix them up. Baatezu and Tanar'ri both seem like demons to me, in the common sense. (As do yugoloths and gehreleths and slaads and even modrons, in a sense.)
I think that they are a 3e thing, probably from the book of vile darkness. (Heh, when i think diabolist, I think palladium fantasy rpg, where they are a sort of 'rune caster'). I have that book somewhere...
I mix them up, too (demons and devils). But, i know that some lore is in planescape. I distinctly remember an encounter in ps:t where one of your companions with a demonic(or devilish?) ancestry gets some guff from some demons (or devils?) in a bar regarding that big demon/devil war.
I think that the basic story is demons are corrupted angels or something and there is a war between angels and demons. The angels needed allies that could fight demons on their own terms, and so created devils. But devils, being devils, rebelled. Now everybody hates and fights everybody. I probably mangled the story.
Note: while Kamigoroshi's post above makes sense, I don't think a sphere of magic should be organized that way. A Baatezu might use Invocation magic to burn your eyes out, and Illusion magic to give you terrifying visions, and Enchantment magic to infect your dreams... none of that is necessarily fiendish magic. It's just fiends using normal magic in fiendish ways. What see as fiendish magic, from the perspective of a resident on the Prime Material Plane, is magic that lets you channel and interface with fiends and their environment.
Agreed. That was what i meant by distinguishing between ' pacts'. Mammon, for example, would give major access to thought ( in addition to the exclusive devil sphere)
The most obvious way is by actually summoning fiends and their ilk. Other effects might be those that are damaging and torturous and don't obviously fall under any other spheres. Actually, some of the Shaman's spells might work well here: "Writhing Fog?" Heck yeah. A spirit Fireball? Sure, that sounds generically demonic.
Note, none of that has much to do with law or chaos or which horse you pick in the Blood War. Both Cacofiend and Summon Fiend summon Tanar'ri, so there's no problem giving the sphere an Abyssal tilt. (That's the reason I didn't suggest including Gate in the sphere - I thought Kamigoroshi would be apoplectic ) But I think it would be kind of unimaginative to make two spheres that mirror each other, except one is about Baator and one is about the Abyss.
To make one sphere about torture and fiery might and summoning - the HLA should summon a balor, really - and another sphere about more... diabolical things, great. But they need not be perfect mirrors or diametrically opposed, or even mutually exclusive. No reason a mortal couldn't have access to both spheres.
Well, that's a good point. If not ' infernal vs abyssal spheres, there could still be one focusing on demonic summoning while the other focuses on 'infernal torturing' spells. The latter could be the domain of the demonologist-- who still gets access to the former-- while the diabolost is pact oriented and focus access to the latter. I think there is enough material to distinguish the two.
Maybe I understated it when I said the spirit sphere is "an interesting case." The Shaman spells are downright weird. One of them is a miniature Cloudkill; one is a magic-damage Fireball; one is just Raise Dead (that one actually is sort of related to spirits); one actually sends an enemy to the Ethereal Plane (has that been retconned as a plane of spirits or something?)
I'd be more than happy to split up those 7 spells and drop them into other spheres...
I'm fine with that. It would be good too hear others' opinions on the matter
As for the contents of that diabolical sphere: my imagination is failing me, as I juggle six or eight other things. People should feel free to contribute ideas though!
I will be happy to do that once I've had a chance to do some reading...
Edit2: i think there is a sweet spot between these two positions. I'm now thinking of 2 different archetypes: 1. A demonologist gains power through the study of profane and forbidden texts that allow them to draw power from the lower planes. That is,They get their divine power in a similar way to how wizards get their spells. This connection to the lower planes allows them to summon ( and eventually, control!) infernal creators.
2. A warlock: they gain their powers through pacts with certain powerful extraplanar, not necessarily evil, creatures.
Maybe 3. A diabolist. These guys are similar to demonologists in That they study forbidden, dark arts, but they draw That infernal power into themselves in order to become devils (and/or demons). They gain infernal traits as they level and might be able to polymorph into a demon or devil (whatever works best given our resources) at higher levels
Comments
And I would definitely add poison resistance at level 1 that would progress towards poison immunity at some point.
Stalker is revised in version...0.67a, which hasn't been 'officially' released, but can be downloaded. The minion should also be immune to assassin vines in that version
I'll see what i can do with the other two
As for spheres, i think it would be good to have both an Abyssal and Infernal spheres. I need to research the lore, but i suspect that @Kamigoroshi is right about the differences between the demonologist and diabolist. The kits seem distinct enough to have two occultist kits, one for each with their different focuses. (They also seem interesting enough that They deserve their own kits). I think this is worth another look: One thing: the one spell that i won't be bringing over from iwdee in some form--unless i get a lot of help from someone that is a) a good writer, and b) knows bgee/sod/bg2ee lore really well--is @AWizardDidIt willing?-- is contact other plane. The spell won't work without a lot of decent, knowledgeable, dialog.
Anyway, the diabolist may get their power from the particular 'pact' they sign, though their main sphere can be whatever spells would make sense if shared by all devil pacts-- it's devils, right?
They need not have summoning-- summoning demons can be the demonologist's thing. I can fill in any spell gaps.
Related, I'm starting to add iwdee mage spells in b_spells, and yeah, a lot of them fit. As for low level spells, I think There is always room. Sure:
https://github.com/UnearthedArcana/Faiths_and_Powers
Click on the ' clone or download' button. Note that this is probably a working version, but it's not well tested (and there are a lot of changes). !
Can you be more specific? Which abilities are lost? Regarding free action: Doesn't seem like a big deal, but i could be overlooking something.
Spirit: I'm really not sure. What is a ' spirit'? I think of it as a platonic form. E.g. a spirit snake is not the ' ghost of an actual snake' but more like the 'essence of snakeyness', a newly and more 'pure' copy of the 'Form of Snake'. It probably wouldn't be within the purview of any of the gods, but exclusive to certain non-deity kits. Okay, will check. Ahhh. That sounds right...*checking*. Yeah, that's it. Not sure why i didn't use ALTER_SPELL_HEADER...
Other inspirations for sphere spells and kit abilities may come from the actual fiend cultist prc's. Such as Disciple of Asmodeus or Thrall of Orcus. All archdevils have their own disciples. Same as the major demon princes with their thralls. Planescape also had a kit called Abyssal Warrior which may be of some use.
I think that they are a 3e thing, probably from the book of vile darkness. (Heh, when i think diabolist, I think palladium fantasy rpg, where they are a sort of 'rune caster'). I have that book somewhere...
I mix them up, too (demons and devils). But, i know that some lore is in planescape. I distinctly remember an encounter in ps:t where one of your companions with a demonic(or devilish?) ancestry gets some guff from some demons (or devils?) in a bar regarding that big demon/devil war.
I think that the basic story is demons are corrupted angels or something and there is a war between angels and demons. The angels needed allies that could fight demons on their own terms, and so created devils. But devils, being devils, rebelled. Now everybody hates and fights everybody. I probably mangled the story.
Agreed. That was what i meant by distinguishing between ' pacts'. Mammon, for example, would give major access to thought ( in addition to the exclusive devil sphere)
Note, none of that has much to do with law or chaos or which horse you pick in the Blood War. Both Cacofiend and Summon Fiend summon Tanar'ri, so there's no problem giving the sphere an Abyssal tilt. (That's the reason I didn't suggest including Gate in the sphere - I thought Kamigoroshi would be apoplectic
To make one sphere about torture and fiery might and summoning - the HLA should summon a balor, really - and another sphere about more... diabolical things, great. But they need not be perfect mirrors or diametrically opposed, or even mutually exclusive. No reason a mortal couldn't have access to both spheres.
Well, that's a good point. If not ' infernal vs abyssal spheres, there could still be one focusing on demonic summoning while the other focuses on 'infernal torturing' spells. The latter could be the domain of the demonologist-- who still gets access to the former-- while the diabolost is pact oriented and focus access to the latter. I think there is enough material to distinguish the two.
I'd be more than happy to split up those 7 spells and drop them into other spheres...
I'm fine with that. It would be good too hear others' opinions on the matter
I will be happy to do that once I've had a chance to do some reading...
The Ur-priest is a 3e creation. Not being limited to canon, we Can pick and choose from later editions if we like!
Edit:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ur-priest
Agreed about the kit/sphere difference.
Edit2: i think there is a sweet spot between these two positions. I'm now thinking of 2 different archetypes:
1. A demonologist gains power through the study of profane and forbidden texts that allow them to draw power from the lower planes. That is,They get their divine power in a similar way to how wizards get their spells. This connection to the lower planes allows them to summon ( and eventually, control!) infernal creators.
2. A warlock: they gain their powers through pacts with certain powerful extraplanar, not necessarily evil, creatures.
Maybe 3. A diabolist. These guys are similar to demonologists in That they study forbidden, dark arts, but they draw That infernal power into themselves in order to become devils (and/or demons). They gain infernal traits as they level and might be able to polymorph into a demon or devil (whatever works best given our resources) at higher levels