Better class for ToB

Riderat

Hey!

So I have recently finished now my 3rd run of BG1 with an Undead Hunter and I am halfway the game with an evil mage/thief. Now I want to go further in the BG2 game and later to ToB, however, since the game takes around 150 hours to complete I would want to choose the better class of these two. I like both classes, but I have read that Undead Hunter loses its many bonuses in ToB whereas Mage/Thief only starts to really shine around the time you enter ToB. On the other hand, all the undead that are present in BG2 should make it a cakewalk for my UH. I hate mindflyers.. on the side note, I usually like to travel around with a party of 4-5 people. I find it the easiest micromanaging and slightly more xp than for a party of 6.

Basically, I would want to hear your thoughts on which class would be easier to play with in the late game. I really can't decide, but I have to :P

Thanks for any input.

Riderat

TheArtisan

Honestly you can play any class and pull your weight in late game. Paladins have it easier than other fighter-types because of the ridiculously strong holy avenger. You may not benefit as much from UH bonuses in ToB but the sheer power of Carsomyr more than makes up for it.

Mind flayers aren't undead, btw.

joluv

They're both great classes. You're correct that there are a ton of undead in BG2, and having immunity to level drain will be particularly useful. There's also some excellent equipment that only Paladins can use. And yeah, a Mage/Thief gets very, very powerful late in the saga.

One thing to consider is that a Paladin will almost certainly end up with a M/T NPC in the party (there are three), but your Evil M/T probably won't be compatible with the only Paladin NPC (unless you count Dorn, who can't use Paladin equipment).

sparrow13x

Mage/thief is more interesting and arguably more useful since it will let you skip taking Imoen/Jan/Nalia if you want, which opens up a space for interesting characters like Mazzy or Edwin. The paladin will be a melee beast but that's all he'll be good for whereas a M/T is like a Swiss Army knife.

Wowo

There is a Mage (Illusionist)/Thief NPC and a Paladin (Inquisitor) NPC so you don't really need to miss out on anything that either class offers.

Overall I'd go with your Undead Hunter as Jan is a unique and powerful NPC Illusionist/Thief with some unique items which are incredibly powerful if leveraged correctly (see @semiticgod 's thread "The Party of Spiders to learn about your options).

Skatan

I know this is prolly not hte answer you want, but both will be great in ToB. I think you should consier your party since they may differ alot based on CHARNAME's class. If you go with the UH, you don't really need as much tanks/fighters since your CHARNAME will be an amazing frontline fighter, so you can pick a team to compliment that. The opposite applies to the T/M, where you might wanna use someone like Keldorn. I personally like T/M alot since it gives more choice in NPC's, IMHO. I always tend to use the same NPC's when I play a fighter type CHARNAME, but when playing T/M, I pick whatever I feel like since he/she can do so much herself without the aid of specific NPC's.

JuliusBorisov

There's also an option you import both your characters to BG2, start a multiplayer BG2 game with them, save at the start, then transfer your save from multiplayer saves to simple saves, and continue BG2 with both of them and 4 NPCs.

semiticgoddess

@Wowo: Unfortunately, one of the best options for Jan, the spider gnome trick, no longer works in EE. Spider form is granted by a weapon rather than a spell effect, which means it's no longer possible for Jan to get 4 base APR with flashers, nor is it possible for another party member to use the flashers even with UAI in an unmodded game. This means the max possible APR for a character using flashers is 5 with the Light Crossbow of Speed, Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, and Improved Haste, instead of 9 with Firetooth. Jan is still a highly effective character in EE, but he's no longer the ludicrous powerhouse he once was.

Riderat

all right! Thanks for the replies. So as I understand, I have a choice between a solid tank/canon and a jack of all trades. Tough choice, since I rather specialize in something, however, it's rarely a tank. And playing with both chars is a good idea, but I somehow think that it wouldn't be fair for the game, since they both are quite strong. Maybe some of you recall one of my previous topics where I was having problems with playing casters. The thing is the same with my M/T - basically only use for her is to search for traps, identify items and monster summoning. Thus so far I am really leaning towards my UH, but yeah, maybe I haven't realized M/T's full potential.

...Just some shower thoughts about my game...

Riderat

FrdNwsm

By M/T do you mean raising a thief to, say level 9 and then dualing over to mage, or going multi all the way? The first way you would end up with a super Imoen (able to set snares as well as deal with locks and traps). The second way slows level progression and you end up with a lower level mage but a higher level thief with more skills. Hiding + improved haste + backstab becomes a possible tactic. (Get the cloak of non-detection).

I have zero experience with undead hunter, so cannot comment extensively. It seems sound, just by reading the kit description. There are potloads of undead in both SoA and Tob. On the other hand, playing something like a cavalier or inquisitor kit, you could always get a cleric to cast negative plane protection on you when fighting such foes. The undead hunter, obviously, would not need such outside help. Which means that if your cleric gets waxed, you can still fight on.

Any paladin kit gets a lot stronger once you get Carsomyr.

Wowo

Remember too that your paladin will start getting spells in Bg2 which will make him very powerful.

joluv

...and eventually Summon Deva, which is just absurd.

Edit: I accidentally said Planetar before.

FrdNwsm

joluv said:

...and eventually Summon Planetar, which is just absurd.

A number of kits get summon Deva and summon Planetar as HLAs. Helps out when Melissan summons a Solar to clobber you. Also useful when dealing with some other high level opponents earlier on. Dorn's ToB quest comes to mind.

Spirit casters get Deva, arcane casters get Planetar.

By the end of ToB, I had (for the good guys) Anomen and Jaheira both carrying several summon Deva spells, and Imoen and Neera packing summon Planetar. Bad guys with these were Edwin and Viconia.

Riderat

Yeah, well the choice is still not apparent to me. I am refferring to a multi-class m/t btw.
If Assuming I would reach around 6.6mil xp throughout the game my UH would be at 30th level whereas my M/T would be only at ~19/25. So which combo would be more powerful? I'm now trying to learn backstabbing with my M/T but it's not as easy as it sounds, I usually score rather low damage, it does not even compare to the damage output of my cleric.

FrdNwsm

6.5 million exp sounds about right. That got my berserker to level 34. Imoen reached level 24 mage, Neera hit level 25. I had no true multi-class characters in my run through, but your calculation sounds about right. (I converted Sarevok to a mage and he ended up L18M/L17 F). Backstabbing is not as easy as it sounds, but note that the damage done increases with the level of the thief, up to 5x at high levels.

THACO on thieves progresses slowly so you need to buff them up if you want them to hit consistently on a backstab. Giant strength, +4 weapon (or better) ... preferably a weapon with extra swings. I think the Scarlet Ninja-to works that way, although I'd have to look it up to be certain. Belm does, but it's only a +2 weapon, which doesn't work well in the end game. And, since he is also a mage, he'll have improved haste for even more swings; also you might consider Tenser's transformation. At highest level, black blade of disaster spell sounds mean for backstabbing, although I never tried it myself. Note that the cloak of non-detection protects hidden (but not invisible) thieves against true sight; the spell does not.

And level 25 thief means a fair number of snares available; those spike traps especially can be mean. Lay a minefield and then get critters to chase you into it. BOOM! Also, you won't have to drag another thief type around to deal with locks and traps.

You might want to have another mage type in your party in order to get extra HLA/high level spells. Heck, I had two mages who weren't even multis, and was thankful for them; you can never have enough arcane spells. At 18, Sarevok only got 1 level 9 spell, although he also had chain contingency active, bur Edwin made up for it.

You can maximize your own character's experience total by running two parties side by side, one good and one evil. That way you can also complete all the evil NPC quests. (You really can't have Anomen and Keldorn in the same party as Dorn and Hexxat.) You can also increase experience total by running fewer NPCs in your party, although that makes things harder.

FrdNwsm

And yes, early on clerics can sub as front line fighters, with DUHM + something like the Flail of Ages or Crom Feyr + a haste item. They don't get whirlwind, though, nor can they use halberds; these two things are what make fighters the premium melee kits later in the game.

Riderat

@FrdNwsm, man it's always nice to read what you have to say!

FrdNwsm said:

You can maximize your own character's experience total by running two parties side by side, one good and one evil. That way you can also complete all the evil NPC quests. (You really can't have Anomen and Keldorn in the same party as Dorn and Hexxat.) You can also increase experience total by running fewer NPCs in your party, although that makes things harder.

Care to elaborate on the two parties side by side thing? You mean completing all the npc quests for both good and bad characters? Is it even possible to have, say, Keldorn joining a party that has evil characters in it? Or is it only dependent on the party's reputation?

Also I believe I will run with a party size of 4-5 to actually get as high levels as possible.

One more thing, if I want to UAI on my thief, could I use carsomyr without any penalties or how does that work? I mean nor thieves nor mages can get proficient in two handed weapons.

FrdNwsm

If you get Use Any Item (which BTW should absolutely be the first HLA your thief gets), you should theoretically be able to use Carsomyr, but your THAC0 will be poor since thieves can't get a pip in TH swords. Having said that, it's possible Beamdog has modified the UAI skill to prevent that. I'd have to do a bit of research there.

I had two differently composed parties; I was able to create two groups since MyChar was true neutral. He didn't care about alignment. Good party was me, Imoen, Neera, Keldorn, Jaheira and Anomen. Evil was me, Dorn, Edwin, Hexxat, Viconia and Sarevok as a F->M conversion. So yes, I did all the NPC quests. I could have kept Jaheira and Imoen in both, but I wanted an all evil group for RP purposes and also to see how the various NPCs worked. I did the final battles using each group, and the evil guys worked out fine.

No, you cannot have Keldorn/Anomen in the same party as a vampire and a Blackguard. I doubt if Keldorn would cotton to Viconia because of her deity choice, but not sure if it would lead to open conflict. I'm pretty sure those two can tolerate other evil aligned characters as long as you manage to keep the party rep decent. A high charisma should help.

Your Undead Hunter is a Paladin kit. I have no idea how that would work. Can he tolerate Dorn? Will Dorn attack him on sight? Will he become fallen if he particiates in Dorn's quests? I have no clue.

FrdNwsm

OK, it looks like use any item will not let you use character restricted items, like Keldorn's family armor, but you could wield Carsomyr ... which should you the magic resistance and dispelling ability as well. Interesting. You probably can't backstab with it; if I recall, you can only backstab with weapons that a thief could ordinarily use, but that 50% MR is tempting. Needless to say, your Undead Hunter would want this as well, and can use it far earlier in the game.

You might try running each of the two characters through the early parts of SoA, just to see how they function. Or create throw away clones in the first chapter of ToB to see what abilities they would get at higher levels. I did that with a couple of kits to see which might be preferable for my next run through.

You might also consider fighter/thief, or fighter/mage (which seems to be quite popular in terms of power gaming).

FrdNwsm

I went to the ToB character creation screen, and drew up a F/T multi, half elf. I got a M13/T15. Looks pretty sound. Playing through SoA first should give you another level in each category.

I also tried calling up various NPCs. Strangely enough, Keldorn didn't react at all to either Hexxat or Dorn. I have no clue why; in SoA they can't stand each other. I suspect it's because we were still in the pocket plane; things might change when we returned to Faerun.

I rolled up a M/T multi in SoA also; full elf this time ... better abilities and immunities. He was level 6/7. Not nearly as impressive, and since I knew Imoen was going to be unavailable for a while, I put 100% into finding traps and picking locks, leaving only a small skill % available for hiding/silent move. Won't be doing any backstabbing with that one any time soon. It should still be sound.

When you get out of Irenicus prison, you will lose Imoen and be left with Minsc, Jaheira and Yoshimo. Dump Yoshi and grab Anomen, Nalia and Aerie. That should serve for a while. Minsc and Anomen should be able to do front line duty, and you'll have plenty of spiritual and arcane spell power.

Dragonspear

FrdNwsm said:

And yes, early on clerics can sub as front line fighters, with DUHM + something like the Flail of Ages or Crom Feyr + a haste item. They don't get whirlwind, though, nor can they use halberds; these two things are what make fighters the premium melee kits later in the game.

I have to disagree with you here. As you get father and father into SoA, you want your Multi/Dual Classed Clerics and your fighter/mages taking the brunt of enemy assaults. They're still going to do respectable amounts of damage, but I'd rather have the cleric with Blade Barrier or Globe of Blades + Aura of Immolation and defensive buffs up. Then have my fighters/paladins/rangers/backstabbers flanking for fights.

I'd say the only exception to this, is if you have built your paladin as a more tanky type character (or fighter). But even then, I'd suggest splitting the battlefield between them and your cleric. Globe of Blades is just plain lovely for the damages

FrdNwsm

Dragonspear said:

FrdNwsm said:

And yes, early on clerics can sub as front line fighters, with DUHM + something like the Flail of Ages or Crom Feyr + a haste item. They don't get whirlwind, though, nor can they use halberds; these two things are what make fighters the premium melee kits later in the game.

I have to disagree with you here. As you get father and father into SoA, you want your Multi/Dual Classed Clerics and your fighter/mages taking the brunt of enemy assaults. They're still going to do respectable amounts of damage, but I'd rather have the cleric with Blade Barrier or Globe of Blades + Aura of Immolation and defensive buffs up. Then have my fighters/paladins/rangers/backstabbers flanking for fights.

Sorry; I'm not quite clear with what you are disagreeing. My comment was in reference to a single class cleric, not a F/C or F/M multi. Clearly any character class with "fighter" in it's description is expected to take part in melee. And yes, clerics can do things like plug a gap or block a doorway defensively, since they can wear heavy armor and get good HP. But offensively, they come out rather behind a fighter kit in the end run.

You will also notice the phrase "early on" in my sentence. I consider all of SoA to be "early on". Clerics can still do front line combat duty there. "Later on" refers to ToB beyond the mid point, when fighters start getting HLAs. Greater Whirlwind lets a Fighter far outdo a plain cleric in damage output.

A high level cleric's best offensive weapon/spell at later stages is likely energy blade, a high powered Melf's Meteors capable of doing huge damage in a short time. This is a distance weapon and doesn't require he cleric to be in the front line. Blade barrier is semi OK, provided the cleric is off all alone somewhere. Aside from the fact that enemies get a saving throw, remember that this spell is NOT group friendly; you will also clobber party members who are standing near you. Being attacked in this manner will turn summoned creatures and (non-party) allies hostile. I rarely used it for that reason.

A fighter kit who gets 10 APR from greater whirlwind and uses a vorpal weapon like the silver sword or Ravager can kill 2-3 foes PER ROUND. I had Ravager+6, a THAC0 of -12 (-14 when berserking) and would end pretty much any normal melee within one turn using GWW.

Dragonspear

@FrdNwsm

A single-class cleric will lag behind, but they'll have enough summoning spells to still be equally threatening.

Even then, I prefer them on the front line, because you can psuedo aggro juggle in BG. Watching them trying to punch through my cleric or arcane caster, while eating globe of blades and aura of immolation, makes me happy.

Yes they won't keep up with the Ravers and GWWs of the world etc. But they'll still do respectable amounts of damage when they hit, on top of all their buffs etc.


And you're right, things like Globe of Blades aren't party friendly, but you can plan combat around the cleric and those buffs, so taht you're party isn't a part of the clerical booze and blood blender bender, happening inside.