Import the Helm or the Claw?
BanArd
Member Posts: 60
Which item do you bring to BG2 and why? I'm going to import soon and I can't make my mind.
The Helm would invariably go to Korgan, the only warrior in my party.
The Claw should be best for CHARNAME (Swashbuckler with 18 CON) or Haer'Dalis (no penalties). The Claw is also one of the few rings Haer'Dalis can wear that increases AC while wearing the elven chains.
The Helm would invariably go to Korgan, the only warrior in my party.
The Claw should be best for CHARNAME (Swashbuckler with 18 CON) or Haer'Dalis (no penalties). The Claw is also one of the few rings Haer'Dalis can wear that increases AC while wearing the elven chains.
- Import the Helm or the Claw?54 votes
- Helm of Balduran55.56%
- The Claw of Kazgaroth44.44%
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Comments
And then I count how many bonuses/penalties each of these items give.
Claw: +3 bonus vs. Wands, Polymorph, Breath, Spells. -4 penalty vs. Death Overall: +8 bonus
Helm: +1 bonus vs Wands, Polymorph, Breath, Spells and Death Overall: +5 bonus
After that, I look at items that can be put in the same slot, and I see Helmet of Defense which gives +1 saves, +20% fire, ice, electrical resistance. Of course, if your character is a mage then losing a ring place can be a problem, but for other characters it's not a big deal.
Although in my solo Totemic Druid run I took the Helm of Balduran because I didn't plan to visit the Planar Sphere with the solo druid.
Deathspells gets much more prominent in BG2 too, so its probably not the best trade off .
Ideally, give the Claw to a dwarven or halfling cleric or monk with a con of 16, which would give them a saving throw of 3 even at the start of the game. That save also checks for paralysis and poison, so no more worrying about ghouls, carrion crawlers, and spiders.
I have both items being available in the starter dungeon, along with a collection of items you would have found during your earlier travels along the Sword Coast. Unfortunately, some duergar have taken them and will gladly use them against you.....
Depends largely on party composition, i.e. how many helmet users you have and who has Con in the right place to benefit from the Claw with no penalties. In my opinion, the most useful thing you can get out of the helmet slot for warriors is a stacking saving throw bonus. You can get that from the two Helmets of Defense in the game, with the possibility of an additional one or two save-boosting helms if you do Dorn's SoA quest or Neera's ToB quest. If that's enough to cover your helmet-users without the Helm of Balduran, then you may as well import the Claw. If not, then you have to take a closer look at who's going into your party and what their ring slots are being used for.
The Claw provides you with high save bonuses and AC that stacks with Protection items. The extra bonus to AC vs. missile weapons makes it ideal for back-liners, but it can be used to good benefit on anyone who needs that extra help to max out their saves and doesn't need both their ring slots for other uses. Fighters, Thieves, and Clerics will all find that extra +3 very useful in getting their Save vs. Spells down to zero, but most Fighters in BG2 can't eat the con penalty without losing HP. The penalty to Death Saves isn't a big deal, because most of the instant death spells that are used against you in the game are actually Save vs. Spells. The main time Death saves come into play is against poisonous/disease-carrying enemies, which is another point in favor of putting the Claw on a back-liner.
Aerie, Haer'dalis, and Cernd can all eat the Con penalty without consequence (though Cernd won't be able to use his unique items anymore), and all benefit from the bonuses. Unless you're putting all your memorization aids on Aerie, she likely has an open ring slot, and the same applies to Haer'Dalis unless you decide he's the best guy for the Ring of Gaxx (though watch out for poison). All of the EE NPCs can also benefit from the Claw. Rasaad becomes close to magic-proof with it equipped combined with his MR, and Hexxat is immune to the effects which target the penalized Death save. Giving Dorn the Claw can help ensure that he doesn't get distracted from Poisoning by disabling spells. Still, all told, that's only 7 NPCs that can use the Claw without penalty; if you aren't using any of them, you may not want to sacrifice the HP on someone else.
I personally enjoy utilizing the claw in BG2 for the same reason many have prescribed, saving throws beats armour class at this stage of the trilogy.
Save vs death does not come into practice I find anywhere near the frequency of save vs spells or for that matter, wands later in game. Save vs death also has better counter spells than the others it seems.
Other great helms are in the game and worthwhile rings, not so much.
The Con hit I suggest most of my PCs can withstand without due effort as I recognize it as one of the most significant stats on creation to pump.
M2C
- Penalty 1: -4 vs death. Not sure how much this will hurt, but seeing how clerics seem pretty strong in saves vs death I guess that one might balance itself out in the long run? And on a related note: do I understand it right that save vs death has nothing to do with things like death spell or powerword: death (which would be save vs spell?), but only affects poison and disease?
- Penalty 2: -2 constitution. Now that one really doesn't look too good, even if shorty saves remain unharmed after getting the constitution tome. But then again there's that Helmet of Dumathoin in SoD which could at least negate the penalty with its +2 constitution (dwarf only). But still, worth it?
On the other hand the Helm of Balduran is of course just an all-around great (if not the best?) helmet one can get in all of the games...
So I guess that at the end of the day it comes down to:
Claw of Kazgaroth + Helmet of Dumathoin
vs.
Helm of Balduran + Ring of Earth Control (or maybe Honorary Ring of Sune or Holy Symbol for some extra spells?)
Any advice/ideas/corrections would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.
Things that death save matters for: most poison effects, paralyzation effects like ghoul attacks, instant death effects like Finger of Death or a planetar's vorpal sword. If you fail a death save, it's quite likely to be very bad for you.
Spell saves also have some instant death effects, such as a beholder's disintegration or petrification rays. Or effects that might as well kill you, like a mind flayer's stun blast. Still, they mostly have effects that will just hurt, like Slow and Chaos.
Conventional wisdom on that Con penalty is that it's only worth it if you're not losing HP. For a dwarf protagonist that's part fighter ... you're probably at 20 Con after BG1. Take away 2, and you lose both your slow regeneration and 1 point of your Con bonus. Or, if you have recovered the Helm of Dumathoin, it's the difference between 22 and 20; slower regeneration, and one point less of the bonus.
Incidentally, the claw has less of a penalty in BG2 than in BG1; only -3 to death saves.
A dwarf fighter/cleric with 18+ Con will eventually reach base saves of 1 versus spell and zero versus death; base saves can't go below zero even with the shorty bonus. Breakpoints here: XP is in thousands. Fighter level listed first, cleric second.
Then again, with an all-defense focus ... priests have several mid-level defensive buffs with turn/level duration, which such a character should have up as much as possible. Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, Free Action. And when you have those running (plus Remove Fear), there just aren't that many things that will affect you even if you fail the save.
For my own parties, I mix it up. My current party went for the claw, and it wasn't a hard choice. Cernd to wear it, and the helmet-wearers would rather have something that grants fire resistance.
I'm happy to use the claw on a caster in BG1, where careful positioning and strategy can mitigate the need to make death saves. But I wouldn't personally consider importing the claw over the helm in BG2.
Okay, so save vs death affects a lot more things than I thought, especially paralyzation can really be a royal pain in the gulliver. Suddenly gimping that doesn't look too tempting anymore... (so Claw 0, Helm 1)
And of course you're absolutely correct in regards to losing constitution, which is rather counter-intuitive for this specific character who will want all the hitpoints he can get, better regeneration probably wouldn't hurt either because Ring of Gaxx isn't exactly early-game content and no-stealing-allowed means no-picking-Ribald's-pockets, d'oh! (Claw 0, Helm 2)
You do have another point in that extra fire resistance sure is nice, but then again I was under the impression that regular (melee) attack enemies are way more common at least for most of SoA than say fireball-slingers. So I think that for quite a while for example Keldorn might love some extra AC, THACO and HP if I go for the Helmet of Dumathoin instead. And when we face a dragon or so he could just quickly switch to one of the helmets with elemental resistances. (Claw 0, Helm 3, I guess)
Hmm hmm hmm, I'm beginning to see a pattern here...
Edit: only saw @jsaving 's answer just now, so thank you too! Seems like the final score is Claw 0, Helm 4. Looks like we have a clear and honorable victor (nope, not Bendak Starkiller), Helm of Balduran it is... well then curse that cursed claw, with some extra cursedy curse words #*&% @£+₩ ^!)¥ on top just to be sure!
Depending on your preferences, the helm of Balduran might well go obsolete. It's great early on, but you find a lot of good helmets. The claw of Kazgaroth won't, because you have so many ring slots to work with. And an item you're using is always better than an item you're not using.
Oh decisions, decisions everywhere...
It's true that death saves are relatively common, but still far less so than spell saves and a point that hasn't been made is that negative modifiers to death saves are unusual - whereas they're not for spell saves. A F/Cl also has such good death saves that, even wearing the Claw, you can get an undispellable guaranteed save against almost everything relatively early in BG2. Getting guaranteed saves against spells is far more difficult and the Claw helps a lot with that (for a F/M the balance on saves is different and the Claw is less beneficial to them).
A large part of the concerns with paralysation effects are from ghasts & ghouls. Given you're a cleric though it's not too long before you can turn and later explode those with turn undead (and sanctuary let's you avoid them if you want right from the early game). Carrion crawlers can't be turned - but they're also helpless against your skeleton allies ...
If you play no-reload, then breath saves are also pretty important. For most classes those are the most difficult things to save against (base saves are higher and modifiers for things like dragons are significant) - again the Claw is helpful there.
If you are wearing the Helmet of Dumathoin the constitution penalty has little impact on HP survival. The difference between regeneration at 20 and 22 equates to just the occasional HP in most fights - and in BG2 you can quickly get hold of the Ring of Gaxx if you want to make even that moot.
on insane difficulty where you take double damage, that potentially 23 HP difference is quite noticeable
So the decision is really far from clear-cut or anything, and for example just some simple mid-to-late-game DUHMing up might completely turn the balance upside down once more, oh my...
Another thing I only read about just now: not related to items' stats or anything, but wiki states that the claw comes with a visual effect of "blurred image, just like the Cloak of Displacement", is that so? I know I know, that's just cosmetic, but might still be another no-no for me or at least for charname him/herself, I'm absolutely no fan of that effect (except maybe on a thief character) or those other crazy cloak visuals for that matter.
In the end I might just go ahead through BG1, pick them both up on the way and simply flip a coin to see which of the two will make the jump
But that's okay I guess, I think I've more or less settled on the helm anyway. Because after all, helmets have the power of protecting brains from hurting (kinda). And rings on the other hand (or on any hand whatsoever, really) are more for... ehm... married couples and pimp types and such. But my nice little Lagr'in Lightbeer (name's not necessarily final yet) is highly unlikely to ever get married (because nobody loves dwarves + already kinda married to Lathander) or to ever take part in the pimping business (not exactly typical lawful good kind of enterprise + Athkatla's just sorely lacking in the clean-and-decent-brothels department). So hooray for Anti-Brain-Hurt-Thingies^^
So the longer your playthrough is, the less I'd recommend the claw. Sure, you can remove that blur effect with mods but if you're like me you don't use mods as a matter of principle.
Overall, the claw is a more complex item than the helm. You really need to max out its advantages which means you should know what you're doing. Otherwise, the helm is just a better all-around item.
I don’t have that avatar, for nothing, after all...
What about the horn, or Koveras’ ring BTW? They’re pretty useful too.
The horn does look interesting too, but 18 seconds sounds rather short for the effects...