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Elementals questions

brusbrus Member Posts: 944
Is there a way mage doesn't need to do mental battle when summoning (lesser)elemental?
Does mental battle depend on intelligence ?
There is a 15% chance that the lesser elemental will win and attack the caster.

When conjuring Fire Elemental why priests don't have to go through mental battle to dominate elementals like mages. What is the lore behind this?

Post edited by brus on

Comments

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,092
    I find it odd that druids have greater control over elementals. A druid's link to nature shouldn't be a factor here. Elementals aren't natural critters; they're extraplanar beings, like demons or celestials. Mages really should have the better handle on extraplanar stuff. Druids summon animals; mages summon outsiders.

    DragonKingJuliusBorisovDragonspearjoluv
  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381
    It's been a long time since I owned the original AD&D books on the planes but in first edition there were significant differences between the Hells etc and elemental planes. It was during that phase of the game that Druids were first imagined to have links to and power over elemental beings as a game feature. Elemental beings were not as much foreign to the prime material then. It's just a game design element that has stayed even when a less detailed and generally inferior cosmology has replaced the detail of first edition AD&D

    semiticgodbrus
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,984
    i think its more of a gameplay balance issue, the fact that druids can summon up fire elementals early makes it so that druids can actually have some merit, realistically if mages could summon all of the best creatures in the game with no muss or fuss ( which is almost pretty much true anyway) then a lot of players would stick with just mages, but since priests get some elemental summoning with no strings attached gives them a shot of players wanting to play them more

    brus
  • brusbrus Member Posts: 944
    edited November 2015
    Could the spell be balanced without mental battle ? For instance, the mage doesn't get stunned, instead increasing chance modifer of the lesser elemental to rebel against the caster. For example 40% chance.

    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,092
    edited November 2015
    @brus:
    mental battle
    Cool glowy text! Yay!

    You can quote this post or brus' to see the tags needed to give text a blue glow.

  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    You will note that Clerics also get the ability to summon elementals, as an HLA. Presumably their deity is helping them control the beings they call forth. While Nature isn't exactly a deity, Druids and Clerics share a fair amount of spiritual magical abilities. I have always assumed that to be the reason Druidic summonings behave in a more obedient fashion than elementals called forth by arcane spellcasters.

    brussemiticgod
  • sluckerssluckers Member Posts: 280
    Let us begin our analysis by using the sample population of mages our heroes encounter in Shadows of Amn.

    From this we can see that, by and large, mages are complete and utter wankers.

    I wouldn't want to assist them if I could help it, either.

    I also suppose that divine casting is more innate from a story perspective. Clerics and druids call on their powers, whereas mages learn them. Arcane casting relies on study and practice, so rather than calling forth the elements (like a druid or cleric) a mage must, in a sense, wrestle an element away from its home plane, which takes skill. With a skill-dependent task comes a margin of error.

    DragonKingDragonspear
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,667
    The more you look at it, mages and sorcerers seem like assholes with their power while druids and Cleric's all seem like dependent's hoping mommy feeds them.

    semiticgod
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    edited November 2015
    We also aren't sure what the exact process by which elementals are brought into existence here on Faerun. There may be two completely different methods.

    A mage/sorcerer might wrest a semi-intelligent being from it's home plane and try to force it to serve. One can see how this might be a source of annoyance to the subject of the spell, consequently causing rebellion. A cleric/druid perhaps takes an unformed mass of naturally occurring earth/fire/air, gives it shape and animates it, and instills the ability to follow simple commands ... more like a golem than a living thing.

    The two end products would resemble each other, but yet behave differently.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,667
    Not ganna lie, you all are making me want to play a druid now. No I don't dual or multiclass so don't bother suggesting it.

  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    edited November 2015

    Not ganna lie, you all are making me want to play a druid now. No I don't dual or multiclass so don't bother suggesting it.

    You want to have to go running to Mommy for help? :open_mouth:

    Druids are decent enough, but realize that they aren't really front line types. Jaheira is a tank because she is half warrior. If you like to get your hands dirty, I'd suggest a cleric instead. They can wear heavy armor, DUHM pumps up their melee ability, and Animate Dead is one of the more useful summonings in mid-game. In fact, even in ToB, skeletal warriors can occupy a foe's attention and soak up damage, due to their ridiculously high MR. They also hang around for EIGHT HOURS, unlike elementals who get bored and wander off much sooner.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,667
    @FrdNwsm
    You're talking to a man who mains the wild mage, getting in your face is not my playstyle. I would've just treated the druid like a mother caster and slung spells, but every time I look at their spells and kits I feel so underwhelmed. At best I'd won't to attempt to play them as type of summoner because to be honest...

    Wildmage >avenge
    Any melee class >than shapeshifter.


    Oh and Mordkiaser Sword> skeletons!!!


    Yep, suckling at mommy's teet is fun, when I'm playing a class I ea t to feel like I'm in that role and druid doesn't seem like it'll giv me that feeling.

    semiticgod
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    edited November 2015
    Druids are a support class. They are accessory healers and can summon animals and such. Their big spell at mid level is Insect Plague, which totally wrecks enemy mages. Quite useful, actually, but not exciting enough to make me want to play one. Fire and earth elementals later on are also good for distracting enemies but, as mentioned, don't last as long as Skellies.

    Gotta disagree with you in one regard. MS is not > animate dead. Mordekainen's sword doesn't last for 8 hours and can't scout ahead for enemies. Also, skeletal warriors eat squid-heads for breakfast. As a wild mage, you get access to Animate Dead as well; are you telling me you never use that spell?

    semiticgod
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,667
    @FrdNwsm
    I get that they are support caster, but doesn't make them seem any less underwhelming to me. Clerics are support casters as well, but when I'm playing a cleric I at least feel like I'm playing a cleric and not a class that just makes me go, "is that it?"

    As far as skele's lasting 8 hours go, ok and? I've made a whole topic on ms vs skeles. Yes lasting 8 hours is nice, but aside from that and the MR, I find MS better. Skele's eat squid heads? I've sat and watch the squid heads destroy level 15 skeletons like it was a mid afternoon snack. I've summoned a ms, casted chaotic command on it, and watch it make a whole room full of illith, and the beetles its -beep-. I sat and had ms tank dragons, the big mofo in watchers keep, and a few other demons like it was a berserk with full immunities and on steroids; while I saw skeletons die in two rounds to the things.


    I use both together because they are both at their strongest for me when used in unison. Skeletons to me are another means of extra dps, because I've watched them die in situations where the ms just laughed at my enemy.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,468
    edited November 2015

    Not ganna lie, you all are making me want to play a druid now.

    Try out my new mod with totally revised Druids, or one of my elemental Mystics. Or my Elementalist, who can automatically control enemy elementals (yay, thread relevance!). Descriptions here:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/678299/#Comment_678299

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/678454/#Comment_678454

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/681238/#Comment_681238

    My Druids never have to run to mommy for safety... :naughty:

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    brussemiticgodDragonKing
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,667
    @subtledoctor
    Why do I get this feeling that you were just hiding around this topic, waiting for this moment.

    semiticgod
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,468
    Eh, I noticed someone say, in essence, "it would be nice if druids were more badass." And, I just happen to have some badass druids

    semiticgod
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,468
  • MeyahiMeyahi Member Posts: 143
    edited November 2015
    Druids are not weak at all, @bengoshi ´s solo scs saga playthrough should be enough as proof.

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/30553/the-tale-of-the-totemic-druid

    Post edited by Meyahi on
    JuliusBorisovsemiticgodBelgarathMTH
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,667
    @subtledoctor
    I mean, I favor casting in all its forms, you could grab any spell casting type of playstyle and I probably do it at least once at some point. Hell the paladin I ran through bp just to try a Nalia romance, I would shift to a druid through keeper, if the process of completely reseting the character wasn't eh, to me.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,468
    My druid/mage works completely in-game, no need for EEKeeper or anything like that. That character happens to have 0 XP only because I took the screenshot in Candlekeep.

    It's not quite ready for primetime - I need to fix the item usability - but it's almost there.

    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,092
    @subtledoctor: I've always wanted a druid/mage. I think I might try out your big SoB mod, if it gets me a properly functioning druid/illusionist. I've been shying away from your mod on the grounds that it sounds too balanced for me. I assume the class just has Turn Undead just grayed out?

    JuliusBorisov
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,468
    ha ha, "Scales of Balance" did indeed try to be very balanced. But, all things must come to an end, that mod is not longer being maintained. The druid/mage is not in SoB, but in the forthcoming "Faiths & Powers" mod that I'm working on with Grammarsalad. The druid/mage starts out as a cleric/mage, then uses a 'druidic talisman' which adds a cleric kit called "druid." If you use the mod's sphere system, that kit will get spells from druidic spheres instead of cleric spells. And I'll block out Turn Undead and change the item usability to match druids instead of clerics. (I'm still working on the last two parts.)
    - Every druid kit gets at-will shapeshifting plus spirit animal summons... oh, and Tenser's Transformation
    - Priests of Mystra casting wizard spells like a sorcerer
    - Priests of Leira casting Simulacrum
    - Elemental Mystics with resistances and a chance to do elemental damage with every melee hit
    ...It really tries to make the divine classes a lot more interesting and exciting. Balanced? Not so much. :sunglasses:

    The more interesting multiclass kits won't be done until later this winter. I just set up the druid/mage, druid/thief, and druid/ranger as proof-of-concept kits and to raise awareness of the mod since I know lots of people have craved playing those combinations. (And by the way, the "druid/illusionist" doesn't actually have two kits... the ridiculously hard-coded gnomish illusionist is apparently coded as a separate class, not a kit.) I have a beta build available, I can PM a link if you like. I'm looking for playtesters.

    JuliusBorisov
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,208
    Elemental questions?
    Elementary, my dear Watson...

    JuliusBorisov
  • squirossquiros Member Posts: 23
    your question is actually quite involved. the problem is that mental battle is actually not a classic effect like stun or movement speed. equipping a thief/mage with mazzy's sword (immunity to stun) makes them respond when clicked, but otherwise unavailable. furthermore, remove paralysis also has no effect. this is because the effect is actually 'pause caster'. there is no way around it that i can see. however, there are some interesting side effects.

    after your mental battle, you can use the illithid circlets to control the elemental if you lose. if the caster is in danger, you can maze them and they will disappear (so they're not stuck in place waiting to be attacked). contingency and sequencers will fire them all at once - you can summon 3 elementals at once and mental battle only once. 15% will still fail. other tricks like using the wand of lightning doesn't summon 6 in a row - the mental battle is part of the spell and as such, it takes something like 2 or 3 months for a mage to summon 5 in a row.

    the only real work around is to have a simulacrum or project image summon an elemental before it disappears. images will forcibly unsummon, even during mental battles.

    brussemiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,092
    To clarify, the mental battle uses the pause opcode, the same thing that holds your mage in place when casting Burning Hands or Agannazar's Scorcher. Item Revisions uses it with crossbows to limit APR. The pause effect freezes you in place and stops action but it doesn't let enemies hit you automatically. There is no item or spell in the game that grants immunity to it. Even bosses aren't immune. But there's no way to inflict the effect on another critter without a mod.

    brusJuliusBorisov
  • brusbrus Member Posts: 944
    C

    To clarify, the mental battle uses the pause opcode, the same thing that holds your mage in place when casting Burning Hands or Agannazar's Scorcher. Item Revisions uses it with crossbows to limit APR. The pause effect freezes you in place and stops action but it doesn't let enemies hit you automatically. There is no item or spell in the game that grants immunity to it. Even bosses aren't immune. But there's no way to inflict the effect on another critter without a mod.

    Can mental battle be disabled by EEKeeper or some other method?

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,092
    @brus: Yup. Go to the "Effects" tab in EEKeeper and add a new effect. It has to be set to be permanent even after death. Make the new effect grant immunity to an opcode and select opcode 165, pause target. You might consider creating an Undead Hunter and then copying its immunity to level drain onto your mage before tweaking it to grant immunity to the pause effect instead of level drain. That way the new effect has the right parameters.

    The mage will then be unaffected by the mental battle period.

    You could also tweak the spell files in Near Infinity, but that would take longer if you're just doing it for your own use.

    brusJuliusBorisov
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