Which Ranger Kit? Archer or Stalker
Xerxes1811
Member Posts: 65
Ok, just finishing up my playthrough with my uber-powerful F/M/T through TOB. Next I would like to start all over in BGEE with an elf Ranger, can't decide between Archer or Stalker kit. I know that ranged is awesome in BG1, but is a bit nerfed in BG2. The Stalker appeals to me due to the ability to be both a solid ranged fighter and then be able to switch to dual-wielding when things get tight and back-stab some people. So he can do a lot of things, but not the master in one, like the archer would be. I know that the archer class is viable, but I just enjoy being able to do both bows and melee, especially with Belm or something in the off-hand to increase APR. Has anyone played as an archer class that dual-wielded also and mixed it up in melee? Or does the only one proficiency point in melee weapons make it not worth it? I'm not as familiar with the whole APR thing, I just know more is better. Just to mention, I'm not interested in power-gaming and I don't want to dual into a cleric (elf). My current F/M/T is god-like with backstabbing, magic, and hitting stuff with sticks, but now I'd like to play a more traditional class (and maybe a little more challenging). Thought from experienced Rangers?
Thx!
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Well, bows/crossbows still are not that great though still effective. Gesen and Firetooth are still OK.
But throwing daggers and slings are absolute monsters in terms of damage output since you get STR bonuses. And the magical ammos being a lot more common in BG2, which actually gives more versatility than melee weapon.
Oh and more specifically for an archer:
Combos involving Darts of Stunning insane APR and effect with Called shot that lowers Save vs spell is insane. In a round or so you will nearly always be able to stun an enemy, and a stunned enemy is a dead enemy.
Another notable combo similar to this one is The Brick+2 with called shot.
Also, check @semiticgod 's posts on archers, for example: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/685857#Comment_685857
If you compare an archer to a stalker, you compare two absolutely different playing styles. If you like ranged attacks, so that your character basically doesn't do anything rather than firing arrows (and doing it amazingly effective), choose an archer. If you like backstabbing and more contact in melee, choose a stalker. In BG2 a stalker gets useful buffing spells.
If you like your current F/M/T as a backstabber but want to play a more traditional class, less OP character, choose a stalker. If you want a change of scenery, take an archer.
In order to make the most out of ranged weapons in BG2 you need good dex, warrior-class THAC0 progression and grandmastery. A good archer meets these requirements. What you get is a character with really good THAC0 (he can potentially hit the zero mark wayyy before any other warrior), great APR and reliable damage against most humanoids (because of bow + arrow bonuses and because archers usually just stand still in combat, while everyone else is constantly re-positioning).
The archer kit is particularly nasty in combat because of kit bonuses and stealth.
The cons: until you retrieve the upgraded quiver of plenty you'll have trouble against non-humanoids which can only be hurt by enchanted weapons. You'll probably have to switch to melee weapons against these, and an archer using melee weapons is about as useful as Minsc using a bow. Passable, good for utility, overall not great. Also, +4 or better arrows are either extremely rare or nonexistent.
A relatively minor disadvantage is the fact that while longbows are better in BG, shortbows are definitely superior for any dedicated archer in BG2. In the end you'll likely end up maxing these two anyway, but until then you'll have to juggle those proficiency points carefully.
The Stalker is basically a multiclass F/T except it only has stealth as a thief ability. In return, it has solid warrior THAC0 progression throughout, gains Charm Mammal at lower levels and starts with 2 pips in dual-wielding. Chosen wisely, that racial enemy bonus is also a big plus. It's not as strong as an F/T by end game (mostly because it lacks UAI), but it should have an easier time getting there.
What makes Stalkers unique is that, although it's very similar to an F/T, it's still a single class ranger - so it gets a -lot- of warrior HLAs. If you ever wanted an F/T that was more fighter than thief by end game, this is your kit.
Not to mention HLA which are better and more numerous for a F/T.
The sole point a Stalker has over a F/T is that he has access to AoF, which makes it a potentially very good tank (Hardiness+DoE+AoF), but if a tank is what you want then there are many kits better than Stalker.
I see a lot of hate talk concerning archers not being powerful enough late game. This is definitely false. Archer with Firetooth and or slings does more damage than most people realize. You can use the firetooth in 2 different ways:
1. With default ammo only
2. With default ammo PLUS another ammo of choice
With option number two, AFAIK, the damage from the default ammo and the actual ammo used STACKS.
So essentially you're getting (1D8) + (1D8+5) + (2 Fire) + (Kit Bonus) + (GM Bonus) With bolts +2/3.
So at level 27, if I've done my math right, an archer using a firetooth +5 with bolts +2/3 will be hitting at 23-37 base damage when you take grand mastery into account and kit bonuses.
The catch is is that it uses the enchantment from the ammo in your ammo slot, not the firetooth ammo. For the extremely small amount of monsters that cannot be hit with +2/3 enchantment, you simply take a damage loss and use the firetooth ammo only (which is still very decent DPS).
If you have to take the +2/3 ammo out to get a higher enchantment, you're now doing 22-29 base damage with just the firetooth ammo.
Also, slings can dish out good damage as well, since you get a strength bonus from them. With a sling +4 and bullets +4 (which can be summoned), and 20 strength at level 27, you're going to be doing 28 - 32 base damage, which could even arguably be better and more consistent than the firetooth (When using GWW anyways). I dunno, I've actually never played an archer with slings. But I'd like to!
To compare this to a kensai of the same level with 20 strength using staff of the ram +6:
36 - 44 base damage.
A regular fighter of the same level with 20 strength using staff of the ram +6:
27 - 35
As you can see, an archer's dps in end-game is going to be about the same as a non-kensai fighter using the highest damage melee weapon in the game. The advantage of course, that you're hitting from range, which will actually increase the amount of damage output since you don't have to run from target to target and get in position.
An archer's called shot is great utility as well for reducing save vs spell, though I will say most of the time you will be either stacking IH and critical strike, or using GWW.
Arrows of dispelling are incredibly OP as well against magic protections, though this talent isn't limited to your archer.
So in the end, so long as you know what you're doing, the archer is a GREAT physical/single target dps class probably only clearly out damaged by a pure kensai, but don't quote me on that.
People that are smarter than me, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.
Firetooth is definitely the real deal. There is also the Gesen Bow, which gives (short) bows an option for +4 enchantment as well, allowing you to hit every enemy in the game (save two, both of which are rare encounters to begin with, and an upgraded Firetooth can hit it, too.
Slings, of course, have also become very good now that they apply STR bonuses. They quickly ramp up to significant damage values, and there is a +5 sling (Everard's Sling+5) available incredibly early, which also comes with inbuilt ammo. Slings are a bit on the slow side with their APR, but work beautifully with Whirlwind Attack.
Thrown weapons should also be mentioned, particularly the Fire Tooth throwing dagger (hooray for awkward double names). STR bonus, decent APR, and usable by Kensai, too (may be a bug?). Definitely something that bears thinking about.
As for Archers, I, too, was skeptical at first. But after some testing, I have fallen deeply in love with them. The power they bring to bear especially in the early and mid game is just mind-blowing. No wonder they destroy BG1! Their damage output, their hit rate, their utility - amazing all around. They will dominate your party kills almost all the way to ToB, if not longer. There is some awkwardness with enchantment levels and missile resistance in spots, but overall I personally believe it is a trade-off WELL worth making.
Edit: Just realized/remembered archer's cannot GM in slings, only specialize I guess.
1. It means I can reduce the standard "stack" size from 80 to 20, meaning that an archer's capabilities are more limited, requiring a bit more tactical finesse. Non-standard ammunition comes with fewer charges, and truly specialized ammunition only has one or two charges.
2. It means I can actually buy and make use of magical ammunition, without worrying about wasting it in the early game and not having it later on. I can use my Arrows of Detonation to start every fight as long as I don't mind resting, which means I can start to think about that arrow when planning my normal strategies.
It also means that ranged characters don't get stuck not having the right ammunition when faced with powerful and protected enemies; at a certain point, your archer shouldn't be carrying non-magical ammunition at all unless they're fighting something that's specifically immune to magical weapons, and this makes that actually feasible.
The engine doesn't fully support it (the character doesn't automatically switch to the next stack when the first stack runs out of charges), but it makes the Archer kit (one of my favorites apart from the Shadowdancer) a lot more fun to play overall.
EDIT: It also means when you buy arrows, you only need to buy one of them--three if you want to fill your quiver. I increase the price of ammunition accordingly (5gp for a quiver of 20 arrows, rather than 1gp for a stack of them). It also means finding fewer ammunition "drops" out in the wild--or if you do find them, you're less likely to think of them as things you absolutely have to have, if you're already stocked up.
My test target was a max level kensai, who I gave a staff of the ram +6, and 21 strength. He's averaging about 34 damage per hit against my naked archer.
Edit: Tested the Gesen bow as well, and it is far inferior. Only averaging about 20 damage per hit with arrows +3.
Edit #2: Tested a berserker and a monk in the same fashion. The berserker I had using Crom and FoA +5 and gauntlets, and was averaging around 29 dmg per hit, so slightly more than the archer. This is with 25 strength mind you. Also this was tested while enraged.
The Monk was probably averaging around 25 damage per hit with 21 strength + gautlets using fists.