I literally own hundreds of games in this genre, and I can't say there is one that I "hate". Even the most copy and paste JRPGs of the 16-bit era and the most mundane dungeon crawler or Ultima clone have SOMETHING to recommend them. Bethesda gets alot of crap because they are the big movie studio putting out the blockbuster that smashes all competition. Think Michael Bay (though they aren't nearly that bad). People do view the first 3 Elder Scrolls games as more "pure" than Oblivion and Skyrim, and some think the open world Fallout games are a blasphemy. I'm not one of them.
Then you have the string of indie/Kickstarter releases in the past few years that have totally revitalized the genre with their innovation and heart. You have hilarious spoofs like Cthulhu Saves the World and Barkley, Shut Up and Jam Gaiden. You have innovative takes on the roguelike genre such as Darkest Dungeon and Sunless Sea. The continuing meat and potatoes retro efforts of Jeff Vogel and Spiderweb Software. Highly original takes on old genres such as Undertale and Paper Sorcerer. Flawed but fascinating hardcore experiences like Inquisitor. The list goes on and on. I personally find the genre and it's evolution as fascinating as the games.
The long string of SSI games were essentially a bridge difficulty-wise to the BG/Fallout era, and from there things only got easier. I'm sure everyone here could beat Skyrim or New Vegas given the hours needed to do so. I doubt a 1/10th as many could ever manage to dig deep enough into Wizardry 4 or Secret of the Inner Sanctum to come out on top.
I'd be surprised if 1/10th of any group of gamers could actually FINISH Wizardry: Return of Werdna. The game was arguably the most difficult cRPG *ever*.
So which new ''classic-style'' rpg is better? Divinity OS Enhanced, Wasteland 2 or PoE?
This is a question that just cannot be answered. Everyone will have an own opinion on it.
For example I, trying to answer this question, will advice PoE, because of its very "BG-esque" feeling. But take a note that DOSEE and W2 are turn-based.
It's because modern RPGs - not all of them, but a lot of them - implement a lot of mechanics that old school players hate, including (but not limited to):
Regenerating health - probably the biggest sin in all RPGs, the complete removal of any attrition effects, hence any necessity to think beyond the current fight. You don't even need to rest anymore, and can literally continually run from one quest to the next without ever getting tired! (Fallout: New Vegas does NOT do this - in fact it even adds MORE attrition with food, water etc - this is rare in modern RPGs!)
Objective markers - no need to read the diary, or decipher clues, or follow directions, or anything...just choose your active quest, point at the arrow, and walk until you hit something! And before anybody says "You don't have to use that!" - uh, you kind of do, because since you have it, it is no longer necessary to give you directions, so the writers don't. Your only clue is "find this place somewhere in the south!", and you have a 6 mile radius to search. You can't follow directions because there aren't any.
FPS or twitch style mechanics - instead of your character's skill, combined with a random factor, being solely responsible for your success and/or failure, you're now expected to have a high level of dexterity as well. The Elder Scrolls games have been becoming more like this, and even Fallout: New Vegas has this (although it rescues itself with the VATS system - careful use of action points, movement and positioning can negate the need to have a high level of twitch-based accuracy)
Voiced protagonists - this prevents you from having full control of your character's identity, because he will always sound the same. It's not so bad if you can choose his voice, because then you have some control (and can add/record new ones if you really want to), but having your character voice every line of dialogue in a voice that you don't get to choose diminishes the feeling of the character being your own, and actually limits the scope of characters you can play if they all sound like that; surely a nerdy bookworm would sound different to an ex-commando. It's one of the reasons I never got into The Witcher. (I'm told Fallout 4 does this... *sigh* oh well, maybe I can find a mod that removes it)
These are just some of the modern RPG sins that are becoming more and more common throughout the genre. That's not to say that they aren't good games, but I, as well as others, tend to not like them...although I don't mind some games that have twitch mechanics if it's done right, however I do hate lack of attrition, objective markers, and voiced protagonists.
may I ask why you prefer Shadowrun and not DOSEE, PoE or W2? I played it a little but was not hooked up.
Because Shadowrun has mods (and an already great and still growing modding community), while DOSEE, W2 and especially PoE don't (or at least not yet in the case of DOSEE and W2).
And by mods I mean real mods like "Antumbra Saga", "Nightmare Harvest" and "A Stitch in Time", not a portrait pack
Anyway, modding aside, I personally really enjoyed both Returns, for the humour, and Dragonfall, for the epicness, (a bit less Hong Kong as I didn't like the new matrix and I felt it has some pacing issues).
I would say Divinity: Original Sin has the slight edge over Pillars of Eternity, if only because of the recent Enhanced Edition that really tightened things up and made them great. Divinity games are really alot more like Ultima VII than anything else, and if you liked Divine Divinity, you will like Original Sin, even though it's a completely different combat system.
Pillars is in every way a worthy successor to the Infinity Engine games, and Wasteland 2 is the way to go if Fallout is more to your liking than traditional fantasy tropes. All 3 are good, bordering on great games.
I would say Divinity: Original Sin has the slight edge over Pillars of Eternity, if only because of the recent Enhanced Edition that really tightened things up and made them great. Divinity games are really alot more like Ultima VII than anything else, and if you liked Divine Divinity, you will like Original Sin, even though it's a completely different combat system.
Pillars is in every way a worthy successor to the Infinity Engine games, and Wasteland 2 is the way to go if Fallout is more to your liking than traditional fantasy tropes. All 3 are good, bordering on great games.
Thanks. I remember how frustrating Lona's Dungeon from the first game was.
may I ask why you prefer Shadowrun and not DOSEE, PoE or W2? I played it a little but was not hooked up.
Because Shadowrun has mods (and an already great and still growing modding community), while DOSEE, W2 and especially PoE don't (or at least not yet in the case of DOSEE and W2).
And by mods I mean real mods like "Antumbra Saga", "Nightmare Harvest" and "A Stitch in Time", not a portrait pack
Anyway, modding aside, I personally really enjoyed both Returns, for the humour, and Dragonfall, for the epicness, (a bit less Hong Kong as I didn't like the new matrix and I felt it has some pacing issues).
Even tons of mods won't help a crappy game to become awesome (and I don't really find Shadowrun crappy game just good). Didn't play Divinity much, but W2 and PoE are both great games even without mods. Of course it would be great if devs made these games modding friendly, but I wouldn't put this as a sole factor of awesomeness level.
Even tons of mods won't help a crappy game to become awesome
Actually they do. Just consider NWN 1: the main campaign is mediocre at best, but some of the mods I've played are awesome to the point of being among the best games I've had the pleasure to play. It may seem a bit extreme, but I personally prefer some of the best mods for NWN 1 to games like Baldur's Gate or Planescape Torment.
For now Shadowrun mods are not as many or as good as the best NWN 1 mods, but the potential is there.
Games like PoE can't be improved by mods and they have very limited customisability to start with, so they simply don't interest me.
According to Steam, I've played Shadowrun for 390 hours and I'm not done yet, too many mods that I still need to try, too many mods than haven't' been released yet. If the modding community keeps thriving I will be playing Shadowrun a lot for a very long time.
PoE, on the other hand, I've only played 6 hours (and that was mainly to get cards to sell for few euro cents on the Steam market) and I think I'm done with it already.
W2, I've played even less, but I'm waiting for the official modding tool the developers have promised in the kickstarter campaign and that, shame on them, they still need to deliver.
I don't have DOSEE yet, but I'm planning to buy it, if and when a modding tool for the enhanced edition is released.
These days I've just finished yet another Kotor 2 playthrough, to try some new mods, I'm currently replaying Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines to try the new unofficial patch 9.4 or mods like The Final Nights, I'm planning to replay Morrowind after that, because I want to try Vibrant Morrowind and some of the quest mods in this top ten video (by the way there are no words to describe how good Lothavor's Legacy is; "absolute masterpiece" come close but still doesn't do full justice to this mod). These are all examples of games that have managed to keep my interest for several years after release thanks to mods. PoE will never have that.
@Erg ok here is what I don't get. You played PoE for only 6 hours because you knew there are no perspectives for the game to be modding friendly or you just simply didn't like the game? Do you install mods even during your first playthrough of each game? I do understand your point of view, but you seem to bring it to such extremes, really.
I love great mods too, but I can't put myself to value the game solely from the modding perspective. Great game should be able to defend itself even without mods. PST is a great example for me. Only handful of mods here and I still finished the game like dozen of times.
ok here is what I don't get. You played PoE for only 6 hours because you knew there are no perspectives for the game to be modding friendly or you just simply didn't like the game?
I don't usually even buy games without mods anymore. I have PoE only because I participated in the Kickstarter and, at the time, I kind of wrongly assumed that it would have mods, because of the whole "spiritual successor of BG" thing. I know, my fault for taking for granted something that was never officially confirmed.
Anyway, a game without mods for me has no replay value, but if it is a good game I may play it just once.
I may consider playing PoE some more in the future (jury is still out whether I like it or not), but I tend to prioritise games with mods because they have more replay value for me and I can't wait to finish my first playthrough, so I can mod them.
I'm not playing PoE, simply because I'm always busy playing something else instead, like the aforementioned Shadowrun, Morrowind, VTMB, Kotor 2, etc.
Screw searching every house, walkthroughs all the way.
This was in an era when walkthrough quality was frankly pretty poor. Especially for Baldur's Gate. You'd likely be looking at an entirely text-based walkthrough (the kind you can find today on gamefaqs) because most people had dialup internet and having walkthroughs with pictures was just not yet a thing. They would also pretty much focus on just describing how to get through the main path, rather than telling you where all the items in the game are.
To give you an idea this is Mike's RPG Centre from 2001 (2 years after the game was released)
So I guess what I'm saying is that not only do modern games hold your hand a lot but (for lack of a better term) gaming community support (with regard to the availability of good quality walkthroughs) wasn't as strong as it is today. I mean I'm sure if I were to google it I would see fairly detailed Fallout 4 walkthroughs out already (as well as frankly all the lets plays). Even though its only been out a day.
Double post, because the previous one is maybe too cryptic.
Just consider that 99.9% of all mods for BG don't hack anything. They just drop stuff in the override folder (even WeiDU basically does that, granted after a lot of preprocessing) and the "override" folder was already there on day 1.
In other words, BG wasn't designed to be moddable, but it was moddable on day 1 nevertheless. Granted more by accident than on purpose, but it was. People didn't know how to write mods on day 1, but that doesn't mean that was not possible.
The best you can hope with PoE is the level of moddability of Mass Effect, where after some amazing breakthroughs we can finally change Shepard haircut, but that's it.
A better example is Skyrim. Even before the construction set came out, people were directly screwing with the game to create mods. The first nude mod actually came out before the construction set.
@elminster , Back in my day, (I sound like that old guy in the meme), we went to brick-and-mortar book stores and bought paperback guides, which were fairly expensive. I spent at least $15 for a Might and Magic 6 guide in 1998. I think some of the puzzles and secrets of the games were intentionally designed so that you'd need to buy the guide book if you wanted to finish the game. (There were hidden buttons on walls, nearly impossible to find floor levers, maddening combination-cracking puzzles with *no* clues on how to solve them, secret doors, hidden dungeon entrances, keys stashed in other dungeons than the ones they open, etc.)
I also had paperback guides for Heroes of Might and Magic 1, Heroes of Might and Magic 2, and Might and Magic 7. I've since lost all of them in moves, which is too bad, because they're probably collectors' items now. They were also really good. They had lots of maps, pictures, and diagrams, they were well-organized and indexed, and they were very thorough, containing all possible information about the game, including cheat codes and secrets only the developers knew.
Baldur's Gate was the first game I played that was simple enough that I could complete it without needing a guide.
Within 5 or so years after that, the evolution of widespread internet use and free online walkthroughs had almost put the paperback guide makers out of business.
It's interesting to get old enough to be able to talk about history because you lived through it.
A better example is Skyrim. Even before the construction set came out, people were directly screwing with the game to create mods. The first nude mod actually came out before the construction set.
Yes, I'm sure we will see a nude mod for PoE soon enough, if it isn't out already.
However, I don't think will ever see an NPC mod or a quest mod or a mod adding new areas, let alone a standalone mod or total conversion, unless the developers do something to remediate.
@elminster , Back in my day, (I sound like that old guy in the meme), we went to brick-and-mortar book stores and bought paperback guides, which were fairly expensive. I spent at least $15 for a Might and Magic 6 guide in 1998. I think some of the puzzles and secrets of the games were intentionally designed so that you'd need to buy the guide book if you wanted to finish the game. (There were hidden buttons on walls, nearly impossible to find floor levers, maddening combination-cracking puzzles with *no* clues on how to solve them, secret doors, hidden dungeon entrances, keys stashed in other dungeons than the ones they open, etc.)
Yep I remember that too. Especially with Myst and Riven.
@elminster , Back in my day, (I sound like that old guy in the meme), we went to brick-and-mortar book stores and bought paperback guides, which were fairly expensive. I spent at least $15 for a Might and Magic 6 guide in 1998. I think some of the puzzles and secrets of the games were intentionally designed so that you'd need to buy the guide book if you wanted to finish the game. (There were hidden buttons on walls, nearly impossible to find floor levers, maddening combination-cracking puzzles with *no* clues on how to solve them, secret doors, hidden dungeon entrances, keys stashed in other dungeons than the ones they open, etc.)
I remember those days well. I still have a number of strategy guides sitting on a bookshelf. But then too I remember when games actually came with substantial instruction guides in the boxes, and maps....
Comments
Then you have the string of indie/Kickstarter releases in the past few years that have totally revitalized the genre with their innovation and heart. You have hilarious spoofs like Cthulhu Saves the World and Barkley, Shut Up and Jam Gaiden. You have innovative takes on the roguelike genre such as Darkest Dungeon and Sunless Sea. The continuing meat and potatoes retro efforts of Jeff Vogel and Spiderweb Software. Highly original takes on old genres such as Undertale and Paper Sorcerer. Flawed but fascinating hardcore experiences like Inquisitor. The list goes on and on. I personally find the genre and it's evolution as fascinating as the games.
...and we liked it!
For example I, trying to answer this question, will advice PoE, because of its very "BG-esque" feeling. But take a note that DOSEE and W2 are turn-based.
Regenerating health - probably the biggest sin in all RPGs, the complete removal of any attrition effects, hence any necessity to think beyond the current fight. You don't even need to rest anymore, and can literally continually run from one quest to the next without ever getting tired! (Fallout: New Vegas does NOT do this - in fact it even adds MORE attrition with food, water etc - this is rare in modern RPGs!)
Objective markers - no need to read the diary, or decipher clues, or follow directions, or anything...just choose your active quest, point at the arrow, and walk until you hit something! And before anybody says "You don't have to use that!" - uh, you kind of do, because since you have it, it is no longer necessary to give you directions, so the writers don't. Your only clue is "find this place somewhere in the south!", and you have a 6 mile radius to search. You can't follow directions because there aren't any.
FPS or twitch style mechanics - instead of your character's skill, combined with a random factor, being solely responsible for your success and/or failure, you're now expected to have a high level of dexterity as well. The Elder Scrolls games have been becoming more like this, and even Fallout: New Vegas has this (although it rescues itself with the VATS system - careful use of action points, movement and positioning can negate the need to have a high level of twitch-based accuracy)
Voiced protagonists - this prevents you from having full control of your character's identity, because he will always sound the same. It's not so bad if you can choose his voice, because then you have some control (and can add/record new ones if you really want to), but having your character voice every line of dialogue in a voice that you don't get to choose diminishes the feeling of the character being your own, and actually limits the scope of characters you can play if they all sound like that; surely a nerdy bookworm would sound different to an ex-commando. It's one of the reasons I never got into The Witcher. (I'm told Fallout 4 does this... *sigh* oh well, maybe I can find a mod that removes it)
These are just some of the modern RPG sins that are becoming more and more common throughout the genre. That's not to say that they aren't good games, but I, as well as others, tend to not like them...although I don't mind some games that have twitch mechanics if it's done right, however I do hate lack of attrition, objective markers, and voiced protagonists.
And by mods I mean real mods like "Antumbra Saga", "Nightmare Harvest" and "A Stitch in Time", not a portrait pack
Anyway, modding aside, I personally really enjoyed both Returns, for the humour, and Dragonfall, for the epicness, (a bit less Hong Kong as I didn't like the new matrix and I felt it has some pacing issues).
Pillars is in every way a worthy successor to the Infinity Engine games, and Wasteland 2 is the way to go if Fallout is more to your liking than traditional fantasy tropes. All 3 are good, bordering on great games.
I remember how frustrating Lona's Dungeon from the first game was.
For now Shadowrun mods are not as many or as good as the best NWN 1 mods, but the potential is there.
Games like PoE can't be improved by mods and they have very limited customisability to start with, so they simply don't interest me.
According to Steam, I've played Shadowrun for 390 hours and I'm not done yet, too many mods that I still need to try, too many mods than haven't' been released yet. If the modding community keeps thriving I will be playing Shadowrun a lot for a very long time.
PoE, on the other hand, I've only played 6 hours (and that was mainly to get cards to sell for few euro cents on the Steam market) and I think I'm done with it already.
W2, I've played even less, but I'm waiting for the official modding tool the developers have promised in the kickstarter campaign and that, shame on them, they still need to deliver.
I don't have DOSEE yet, but I'm planning to buy it, if and when a modding tool for the enhanced edition is released.
These days I've just finished yet another Kotor 2 playthrough, to try some new mods, I'm currently replaying Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines to try the new unofficial patch 9.4 or mods like The Final Nights, I'm planning to replay Morrowind after that, because I want to try Vibrant Morrowind and some of the quest mods in this top ten video (by the way there are no words to describe how good Lothavor's Legacy is; "absolute masterpiece" come close but still doesn't do full justice to this mod). These are all examples of games that have managed to keep my interest for several years after release thanks to mods. PoE will never have that.
I love great mods too, but I can't put myself to value the game solely from the modding perspective. Great game should be able to defend itself even without mods. PST is a great example for me. Only handful of mods here and I still finished the game like dozen of times.
Anyway, a game without mods for me has no replay value, but if it is a good game I may play it just once.
I may consider playing PoE some more in the future (jury is still out whether I like it or not), but I tend to prioritise games with mods because they have more replay value for me and I can't wait to finish my first playthrough, so I can mod them.
I'm not playing PoE, simply because I'm always busy playing something else instead, like the aforementioned Shadowrun, Morrowind, VTMB, Kotor 2, etc.
To give you an idea this is Mike's RPG Centre from 2001 (2 years after the game was released)
https://web.archive.org/web/20010414205000/http://mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate/walkthrough.html
This is Dudleyville in 2001
https://web.archive.org/web/20010124013600/http://www.dudleyville.com/
So I guess what I'm saying is that not only do modern games hold your hand a lot but (for lack of a better term) gaming community support (with regard to the availability of good quality walkthroughs) wasn't as strong as it is today. I mean I'm sure if I were to google it I would see fairly detailed Fallout 4 walkthroughs out already (as well as frankly all the lets plays). Even though its only been out a day.
Just one word: override.
Just consider that 99.9% of all mods for BG don't hack anything. They just drop stuff in the override folder (even WeiDU basically does that, granted after a lot of preprocessing) and the "override" folder was already there on day 1.
In other words, BG wasn't designed to be moddable, but it was moddable on day 1 nevertheless. Granted more by accident than on purpose, but it was. People didn't know how to write mods on day 1, but that doesn't mean that was not possible.
The best you can hope with PoE is the level of moddability of Mass Effect, where after some amazing breakthroughs we can finally change Shepard haircut, but that's it.
I also had paperback guides for Heroes of Might and Magic 1, Heroes of Might and Magic 2, and Might and Magic 7. I've since lost all of them in moves, which is too bad, because they're probably collectors' items now. They were also really good. They had lots of maps, pictures, and diagrams, they were well-organized and indexed, and they were very thorough, containing all possible information about the game, including cheat codes and secrets only the developers knew.
Baldur's Gate was the first game I played that was simple enough that I could complete it without needing a guide.
Within 5 or so years after that, the evolution of widespread internet use and free online walkthroughs had almost put the paperback guide makers out of business.
It's interesting to get old enough to be able to talk about history because you lived through it.
However, I don't think will ever see an NPC mod or a quest mod or a mod adding new areas, let alone a standalone mod or total conversion, unless the developers do something to remediate.