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Deathbattle: Dorn Vs Sarevok!

2

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  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited December 2015
    Gotural said:

    I disagree, dualing Sarevok to Thief is not canon and he does not start as a Fighter => Thief. When you recruit Sarevok he is only a Fighter, while Dorn is a Blackguard and has his Poison Weapon ability from the start.

    Of course in my BG:EE example Dorn has some equipment and some levels under his belt but it was just a fun example to show that even a level 5+ Blackguard could take down Sarevok. Comparing a level 1 Dorn versus the final boss of the game does not make sence anyway in my opinion.

    I'm pretty sure the OP didn't want a comparison of Dorn and Sarevok at each points of the game, but rather a global, balanced and fair fight between the two warriors. And in that case, I'm pretty sure Dorn will win because he has strong powers compared to Sarevok who is simply a Fighter.

    We don't know if Sarevok dualing to a Rogue is canon or not, doesn't it seem a bit strange that he has exactly 17 dexterity and 17 intelligence, the exact number you need to dual class?

    If we follow canon then : Deathbringers are a special group of warriors trained in the art of intimidation and war. They can scare their enemies into paralyzation by locking eye contact, as well as destroy in a single blow.

    So not only can Sarevok scare dorn into paralyzation, but he can also destroy him in a single blow. That it's a random effect in the game just shows the limitation of the game engine, not how the ability works. Canon wise Sarevok can kill Dorn in a single blow, so canon wise Sarevok will destroy Dorn.

    I'm not going to discuss this anymore, it couldn't be more biased. A naked Sarevok vs Dorn, how is that fair?

    @SionIV: DragonKing added those rules to make the discussion neutral, not biased, and he was right to do so. The more variables we add on, the more complex and difficult to resolve the question becomes.

    Sarevok can dual to mage and cast Summon Fallen Planetar, so he's much stronger than Dorn. Sarevok wins!

    But wait, Dorn can just slap a Protection from Magic scroll on Sarevok, and Sarevok's mage levels are wasted. Dorn wins!

    But wait, Sarevok can use Staff of the Magi and make sure he's invisible when he casts Time Stop, and then chop up Dorn. Sarevok wins!

    But wait, Dorn can use the Book of Infinite spells to dispel Sarevok's invisibility and use the scroll when Sarevok is visible. Dorn wins!

    But wait, Sarevok can go to the inventory screen to re-equip the Staff of the Magi. Sarevok wins!

    But wait, Dorn can import an Arrow of Detonation and summon Kitthix to use as a target. Dorn hits Sarevok with the area of effect and disrupts Sarevok. Dorn wins!

    But wait, Sarevok can equip the Ring of Gaxx to block the poison and use a GOI Contingency to block the fire damage. Sarevok can then finish casting Time Stop. Sarevok wins!

    But wait, Dorn isn't stupid enough to stick around when he hears Sarevok casting an alteration spell. He downs a Potion of Invisibility and runs away, so Sarevok has to search for Dorn during Time Stop, costing precious rounds and preventing him from gaining an advantage. Sarevok's Time Stop spells are wasted. It's a draw!

    But wait, Sarevok can just spam True Seeing spells to uncover Dorn every time. Sarevok wins!

    But wait, Dorn can save up dozens of Potions of Invisibility and drink one every time Sarevok reveals him. It's a draw!

    But wait, Dorn can just hit Sarevok with the Horn of Blasting. Dorn wins!

    But wait, maybe Sarevok makes his save. Well, if he does, it's just a draw, so Dorn wins on average. But what if Sarevok is wearing the Ring of Free Action to block the stun effect? Well, some versions of the game let Free Action block stun, but others don't. Let's say it does. Sarevok wins!

    Now we have successfully solved the question of who would win if Sarevok duals to mage and both have all the items they could want and they're both at epic levels and Sarevok and Dorn are working with optimal knowledge and we're using a version of the game in which Free Action blocks the stun effect and Sarevok is wearing that ring instead of the many others that would be useful or Sarevok resists the stun effect from the Horn of Blasting. The question is solved! Assuming all six parameters are met.

    So who would win before epic levels? Or without all the right items? Or if neither had perfect knowledge of the other's abilities? Or if we're using a different version of the game?

    The idea is to stick with ordinary situations and lore, for the sake of simplicity and clarity. If we delve into all the possible scenarios, however unusual (it is not standard to dual-class Sarevok; most people do not), then our conclusions are going to be extremely narrow and conditional, and, most importantly, not representative of how Dorn and Sarevok would actually fight each other.

    EDIT: Also, Sarevok gets a set of Full Plate Mail +1, a Two-Handed Sword +3, a crossbow, bolts, and some potions if you recruit him in ToB. So it's not true that restricting them to starting equipment would leave Sarevok defenseless.

    Hmm, I don't remember him getting any items when you recruited him in the original game. Either this was changed at some point, or my memory is failing me.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    edited December 2015
    But by lore Dorn is a Blackguard, and by lore Blackguards are immune to fear. Plus if Sarevok can kill Dorn in a single blow canon wise, we could also say that Dorn can poison Sarevok with his crossbow, and then Sarevok dies, the end. (I didn't read any novels about D&D but in most books or movies, when someone is getting poisoned, it's pretty serious).
    SionIV said:


    We don't know if Sarevok dualing to a Rogue is canon or not, doesn't it seem a bit strange that he has exactly 17 dexterity and 17 intelligence, the exact number you need to dual class? .

    But isn't it also a bit strange that Sarevok has the exact number you need to dual class, but still hasn't do it when you recruit him ?

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited December 2015
    Gotural said:

    But by lore Dorn is a Blackguard, and by lore Blackguards are immune to fear. Plus if Sarevok can kill Dorn in a single blow canon wise, we could also say that Dorn can poison Sarevok with his crossbow, and then Sarevok dies, the end. (I didn't read any novels about D&D but in most books or movies, when someone is getting poisoned, it's pretty serious).

    Fear isn't the same as Paralyzation. A crossbow bolt will not be able to pierce a full plate armor. Sarevok is also a child of Bhaal. Bhaal has assassination and murder in his portfolio, wouldn't surprise me if his children were immune or resistant to poison.



    Daaamn, I'm so bad at backing down from a discussion. :disappointed:
    SionIV said:



    But isn't it also a bit strange that Sarevok has the exact number you need to dual class, but still hasn't do it when you recruit him ?

    Sarevok was dead at this point, he couldn't possible learn how to be a rogue or mage. But when you return him to life, it would make sense for him to search other places to gain power, as being just a fighter, he still lost to you. He might find being a Rogue beneath him, but having heard how powerful Irenicus was, it wouldn't surprise me if he started to study magic.

    Both his guardian and concubine were mages, it would make sense for him to have learnt a thing or two.

    semiticgodGotural
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member Posts: 14,442
    SionIV said:


    Daaamn, I'm so bad at backing down from a discussion. :disappointed:

    I have the same problem. Lots of people do.

    GoturalSionIV
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    But the paralyzation is induced by scaring the opponent.

    I agree for the crossbow bolt, it depends of the range, the accuracy, etc.
    Well Dorn could also parry Sarevok's blows ? :blush:

    SionIV
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 286
    edited December 2015
    Canon wise, it would be something like Sarevok [Fighter Lv. 17] vs Dorn [Blackguard Lv. 10) in ToB.

    In BG1 it's not even a Fight, since it's Sarevok Lv. 15 Fighter with Black Armor vs Lv. 4 Dorn

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    edited December 2015
    Vitor said:

    Canon wise, it would be something like Sarevok [Fighter Lv. 17] vs Dorn [Blackguard Lv. 10) in ToB.

    Why? Canon wise if Charname completes every quests, Dorn will probably even outlevel Sarevok.
    Or do you assume the canon party is good and thus Dorn doesn't earn much experience?

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited December 2015
    Gotural said:

    But the paralyzation is induced by scaring the opponent.

    I agree for the crossbow bolt, it depends of the range, the accuracy, etc.
    Well Dorn could also parry Sarevok's blows ? :blush:

    I always imagined that Sarevoks Deathbringer Assault was a little bit like Zantetsuken from Final Fantasy, one blow that goes through armor and everything.

    I'm not sure about the paralyzation, but there is something we're forgetting. Dorn is into men, so for him to see the beauty that is Sarevok, those muscle, that bald head with the tattoos, those burning eyes, he might get paralyzed for OTHER reaons. :wink:
    Gotural said:

    Vitor said:

    Canon wise, it would be something like Sarevok [Fighter Lv. 17] vs Dorn [Blackguard Lv. 10) in ToB.

    Why? Canon wise if Charname completes every quests, Dorn will probably even outlevel Sarevok.
    Or do you assume the canon party is good and thus Dorn doesn't earn much experience?
    Canon wise CHARNAME never picks up Dorn, I think that is what he meant. Jaheira, Khalid, Imoen, Minsc, Dynaheir are the Canon party. So the question is if we're going with the Canon from the original game, or accept the changes that BG:EE makes to the story.

    Do we know what the evil Canon party is? If we look at the NPC's in Baldur's Gate 2 then it seems like it is : Xzar, Montaron, Edwin, Viconia, Faldorn (?). You recognize all of them when you meet them in Baldur's Gate 2 and it would make sense based on their location.

    Xzar + Montaron - First NPC's you meet (that isn't Imoen)
    Viconia - Close to Friendly Arm in, next to a road.
    Edwin - Nashkel, a location that you're forced to visit to complete the story.
    Faldorn - Found in Cloakwood, a place that you're traveling through to get to the Cloakwood mine.

    Goturalsemiticgodcraymond727
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 286
    edited December 2015
    Gotural said:

    Vitor said:

    Canon wise, it would be something like Sarevok [Fighter Lv. 17] vs Dorn [Blackguard Lv. 10) in ToB.

    Why? Canon wise if Charname completes every quests, Dorn will probably even outlevel Sarevok.
    Or do you assume the canon party is good and thus Dorn doesn't earn much experience?
    Because if it were a story, and not a game, each member of the party wouldn't be at the same level. Just charname would end the story beyond Lv. 20, because that is the path to godhood. Are you assuming you would have 6 Lv. 25 demigods walking side by side? Of course not... Charname would be probably Lv. 29 or 30, like Balthazar, and the others NPCs would be around Lv. 15. If you're considering the begenning of ToB, then Sarevok would be Lv. 17, Charname Lv. 15 and Dorn Lv. 12. If you're considering the end of ToB, then Charname would be Lv. 29, Sarevok Lv. 19 or 20, and Dorn Lv. 15-16 (but here Sarevok would have Ravager and a lot more equipment).
    SionIV said:


    Gotural said:

    Vitor said:

    Canon wise, it would be something like Sarevok [Fighter Lv. 17] vs Dorn [Blackguard Lv. 10) in ToB.

    Canon wise CHARNAME never picks up Dorn, I think that is what he meant. Jaheira, Khalid, Imoen, Minsc, Dynaheir are the Canon party. So the question is if we're going with the Canon from the original game, or accept the changes that BG:EE makes to the story.
    No, what I meant was that if it was Canon wise, charname wouldn't have just "one party" at ToB. He would have 20 NPCs that would be his comrades, good, neutral or evil. It wouldn't be just six characters staying together, like a team. No. It would be Charname, this famous demigod that everyone fears, and a lot of allies following him. Edwin and Minsc don't get to each other, but they both would follow Charname. Edwin could be in a part of the Sword Coast, doing somethings for Charname, and Minsc at another side, doing other things.

    Well... At least that is the story of my Main Character. I don't count the novels, since they seem to be very bad.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited December 2015
    Vitor said:

    Gotural said:

    Vitor said:

    Canon wise, it would be something like Sarevok [Fighter Lv. 17] vs Dorn [Blackguard Lv. 10) in ToB.

    Why? Canon wise if Charname completes every quests, Dorn will probably even outlevel Sarevok.
    Or do you assume the canon party is good and thus Dorn doesn't earn much experience?
    Because if it were a story, and not a game, each member of the party wouldn't be at the same level. Just charname would end the story beyond Lv. 20, because that is the path to godhood. Are you assuming you would have 6 Lv. 25 demigods walking side by side? Of course not... Charname would be probably Lv. 29 or 30, like Balthazar, and the others NPCs would be around Lv. 15. If you're considering the begenning of ToB, then Sarevok would be Lv. 17, Charname Lv. 15 and Dorn Lv. 12. If you're considering the end of ToB, then Charname would be Lv. 29, Sarevok Lv. 19 or 20, and Dorn Lv. 15-16 (but here Sarevok would have Ravager and a lot more equipment).
    But wouldn't Imoen also be the same level as you? And Sarevok too, as you're giving him a part of your/Imoens soul, so he is still a child of Bhaal. With the level cap that is in SoA, you would end up as a level 19 fighter (Canon was fighter), which isn't that far away from Sarevok, who is 17.

    semiticgod
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 286
    edited December 2015
    SionIV said:

    Vitor said:

    Gotural said:

    Vitor said:

    Canon wise, it would be something like Sarevok [Fighter Lv. 17] vs Dorn [Blackguard Lv. 10) in ToB.

    Why? Canon wise if Charname completes every quests, Dorn will probably even outlevel Sarevok.
    Or do you assume the canon party is good and thus Dorn doesn't earn much experience?
    Because if it were a story, and not a game, each member of the party wouldn't be at the same level. Just charname would end the story beyond Lv. 20, because that is the path to godhood. Are you assuming you would have 6 Lv. 25 demigods walking side by side? Of course not... Charname would be probably Lv. 29 or 30, like Balthazar, and the others NPCs would be around Lv. 15. If you're considering the begenning of ToB, then Sarevok would be Lv. 17, Charname Lv. 15 and Dorn Lv. 12. If you're considering the end of ToB, then Charname would be Lv. 29, Sarevok Lv. 19 or 20, and Dorn Lv. 15-16 (but here Sarevok would have Ravager and a lot more equipment).
    But wouldn't Imoen also be the same level as you? And Sarevok too, as you're giving him a part of your/Imoens soul, so he is still a child of Bhaal. With the level cap that is in SoA, you would end up as a level 19 fighter (Canon was fighter), which isn't that far away from Sarevok, who is 17.
    I think Imoen would be around Lv. 12-14 at the end of ToB. If it was a story, charname wouldn't complete every possible quest. And there wouldn't be such a thing as "level cap". Maybe charname could be at the same level of Sarevok, a bit lower or a bit higher. But every other NPC wouldn't be at the same league.

    I don't think Sarevok would be higher than Lv. 20, or he would start becoming his own thing. He would alone be a force to rival Sendai, Yaga-Shura, Balthazar or Abazigal. That's why I think Lv. 19 would suit him well.

    We have to understand that characters higher than Lv. 15 in D&D is someone absurdly strong. Higher than Lv. 20, so, is a demigod.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited December 2015
    Vitor said:

    SionIV said:

    Vitor said:

    Gotural said:

    Vitor said:

    Canon wise, it would be something like Sarevok [Fighter Lv. 17] vs Dorn [Blackguard Lv. 10) in ToB.

    Why? Canon wise if Charname completes every quests, Dorn will probably even outlevel Sarevok.
    Or do you assume the canon party is good and thus Dorn doesn't earn much experience?
    Because if it were a story, and not a game, each member of the party wouldn't be at the same level. Just charname would end the story beyond Lv. 20, because that is the path to godhood. Are you assuming you would have 6 Lv. 25 demigods walking side by side? Of course not... Charname would be probably Lv. 29 or 30, like Balthazar, and the others NPCs would be around Lv. 15. If you're considering the begenning of ToB, then Sarevok would be Lv. 17, Charname Lv. 15 and Dorn Lv. 12. If you're considering the end of ToB, then Charname would be Lv. 29, Sarevok Lv. 19 or 20, and Dorn Lv. 15-16 (but here Sarevok would have Ravager and a lot more equipment).
    But wouldn't Imoen also be the same level as you? And Sarevok too, as you're giving him a part of your/Imoens soul, so he is still a child of Bhaal. With the level cap that is in SoA, you would end up as a level 19 fighter (Canon was fighter), which isn't that far away from Sarevok, who is 17.
    I think Imoen would be around Lv. 12-14 at the end of ToB. If it was a story, charname wouldn't complete every possible quest. And there wouldn't be such a thing as "level cap". Maybe charname could be at the same level of Sarevok, a bit lower or a bit higher. But every other NPC wouldn't be at the same league.

    I don't think Sarevok would be higher than Lv. 20, or he would start becoming his own thing. He would alone be a force to rival Sendai, Yaga-Shura, Balthazar or Abazigal. That's why I think Lv. 19 would suit him well.

    We have to understand that characters higher than Lv. 15 in D&D is someone absurdly strong. Highter than Lv. 20 is a demigod.
    But why would CHARNAME be stronger than Imoen and Sarevok, when all three of them are Children of Bhaal? They would all three have the power in them to go epic, and Sarevok would most likely be STRONGER than CHARNAME, even in ToB.

    Sarevok and Imoen have really high stats, Sarevok (95) and Imoen (87). They are already from the start, way more powerful than normal mortals. I can understand that someone like Alora (70) would never reach a high level, but both Imoen AND Sarevok have the potential to do so.

    It could also be said that Anomen would become a Champion of Helm, and Keldorn a Champion of Tyr. This would make their high level more believable.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    To my mind Charname has a stronger essence, or a bigger part of it. That's why he is the hero of the game, defeats Sarevok, Irenicus, Melissan and become (or not) a god.
    I think all children of Bhaal aren't equals but that's my theory.

    SionIVVitorGrum
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 286
    edited December 2015
    Sarevok states a lot of time in ToB that now he's no match for Charname. And Imoen starts to develop her Bhaalspawn powers in ToB, while Charname is experiencing it since BG1.

    Imoen is still inexperienced (as a Thief/mage and as a bhaalspawn), so she would end ToB as Charname started Shadows of Amn. Sarevok had already reached near his full potential in BG1, and would evolve just a little in ToB. Charname's evolution in story is not due just to his Experience, but for his bhaalspawn essence that is growing and turning him into a god.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited December 2015
    Gotural said:

    To my mind Charname has a stronger essence, or a bigger part of it. That's why he is the hero of the game, defeats Sarevok, Irenicus, Melissan and become (or not) a god.
    I think all children of Bhaal aren't equals but that's my theory.

    I don't agree with them having a stronger or weaker essence. I think all of the Children of Bhaal have an equal part of his essence, but not all of them were created equal. A fire giant is going to be a lot stronger than a human, same with a dragon. Then there are exceptional humans (CHARNAME, Balthazar, Sarevok, etc) that don't have a stronger essence, but are stronger as an individual.

    When CHARNAME kills a Bhaalspawn, he doesn't get their essence, it returns to the place with the statues (realm of Bhaal?)

    Your theory could be correct, if we look at Irenicus, who wanted YOUR soul/essence, and not Imoens. Then again when you take someones soul/essence, they will become a part of you (Sarevok, feeling giddy like Imoen in ToB), so that might be why Irenicus didn't want Imoens soul/essence :wink:

  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 286
    edited December 2015
    SionIV said:

    Gotural said:

    To my mind Charname has a stronger essence, or a bigger part of it. That's why he is the hero of the game, defeats Sarevok, Irenicus, Melissan and become (or not) a god.
    I think all children of Bhaal aren't equals but that's my theory.

    I don't agree with them having a stronger or weaker essence. I think all of the Children of Bhaal have an equal part of his essence, but not all of them were created equal. A fire giant is going to be a lot stronger than a human, same with a dragon. Then there are exceptional humans (CHARNAME, Balthazar, Sarevok, etc) that don't have a stronger essence, but are stronger as an individual.

    When CHARNAME kills a Bhaalspawn, he doesn't get their essence, it returns to the place with the statues (realm of Bhaal?)

    Your theory could be correct, if we look at Irenicus, who wanted YOUR soul/essence, and not Imoens.
    Well, in the beggining of BG1 charname hadn't developed any of his bhalspawn powers. But Sarevok had already completed the trial of Bhaal, that you face in Shadows of Amn. So, each bhalspawn develop the god's powers in his own way.

    Also, when you face Balthazar, he said that when a bhalspawn is killed, all the other bhalspawns get stronger. And, when you face Bhaltazar, it is stated that Charname and Balthazar are at the same league in terms of "Bhaal's power" at that momment.

    Imoen was alive, so she had the potential to become as strong as Charname and Balthazar... But she hadn't developed it. She hadn't developed any Bhalspawn power, and was way to far to face the Bhaal's trial of life and death.

    Sarevok had just a fraction of this essence, just to keep him alive. He was out of question in ToB, even if in BG1 he had developed a lot of Bhaalspawn powers.

    SionIV
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,300
    we could make dorn and sarevok archetypes not based on lore but based on how people most commonly use them in the game.

    that would probably mean dorn with the unholy reaver and/or ravager and sarevok (single class fighter of course) with gram, and both wearing silver dragon armor. that's about it, so no special items or tactics that semiticgod described /epic post btw :smiley:/ because most people don't need to use them in normal circumstances, when playing agains the ai.

    semiticgodGotural
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,162
    Vitor said:


    Also, when you face Balthazar, he said that when a bhalspawn is killed, all the other bhalspawns get stronger. And, when you face Bhaltazar, it is stated that Charname and Balthazar are at the same league in terms of "Bhaal's power" at that momment.

    Not sure where you are getting this from but he doesn't say this.

  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 286
    edited December 2015
    elminster said:

    Vitor said:


    Also, when you face Balthazar, he said that when a bhalspawn is killed, all the other bhalspawns get stronger. And, when you face Bhaltazar, it is stated that Charname and Balthazar are at the same league in terms of "Bhaal's power" at that momment.

    Not sure where you are getting this from but he doesn't say this.
    I'm sure it is stated this in the game. Now I don't recall if it's in the talk with Balthazar, or talking with the Solar, in the pocket plane, before going to fight Balthazar.

  • EmpyrialEmpyrial Member Posts: 107
    I feel like this whole discussion was meant to be way more hypothetical and fun than based around mechanics. I originally took it as something similar to the people who ask "If Torm fought Superman, who would win?" Based around lore, I feel like Dorn would lose. Look at the epilogues - Dorn gets captured how many times by one bounty hunter? Sarevok's says he's as terrifying as an army of orcs (which he kills quite a few of if I'm not mistaken). Dorn would get rekt by Sarevok if we're looking at things from a lore perspective in my opinion.

    I feel like the first trial's speaker sort of implies that some people have more or less bhaal essence in them too, but I could be wrong.

    semiticgod
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    On the contrary I think that based on lore Dorn should win easily because he is a Blackguard, and D&D is definitely not a balanced setting or game.

    In most MMO for example, a level 50 Warrior is supposed to be equal to a level 50 Mage, and if it isn't the case, blame the devs.
    But in D&D, a level 2 Mage is supposed to be a lot weaker than a level 2 Fighter because later on, a level 20 Mage alone could easily kill three level 25 Fighters.

    This is also why classes have different XP requirements.

    It is also very roleplay, why bother to spend many years to learn magic if you can become the most powerful guy by just wielding a sword ? Everyone can swing a blade.

    A Blackguard is actually a Fighter who wish to sell his soul and freedom of will to a powerful fiend in exchange for more power, thus I think they should be stronger than simple Fighters.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited December 2015
    Gotural said:

    On the contrary I think that based on lore Dorn should win easily because he is a Blackguard, and D&D is definitely not a balanced setting or game.

    In most MMO for example, a level 50 Warrior is supposed to be equal to a level 50 Mage, and if it isn't the case, blame the devs.
    But in D&D, a level 2 Mage is supposed to be a lot weaker than a level 2 Fighter because later on, a level 20 Mage alone could easily kill three level 25 Fighters.

    This is also why classes have different XP requirements.

    It is also very roleplay, why bother to spend many years to learn magic if you can become the most powerful guy by just wielding a sword ? Everyone can swing a blade.

    A Blackguard is actually a Fighter who wish to sell his soul and freedom of will to a powerful fiend in exchange for more power, thus I think they should be stronger than simple Fighters.

    I agree that they should be stronger than simple fighters, but Sarevok isn't a simple fighter.

    He is an exceptional fighter (95 in stats), and he was the child of a god. His abilities are well above that of a normal mortal. A blackguard might be powerful because of his trade with demons, but a child of a god is something on a completely different level.

    18/100 in strength is the highest a human can get, anything higher than that and we're talking about demi gods. Same with his constitution. Both his dexterity and intelligence are almost at the limit of what is possible for a mortal person. Sarevok doesn't only have high scores in a few selected stats, almost all of his stats are exceptional. Dorns 19 isn't nearly as impressive as Sarevoks 18/100, because Dorn is a Half-Orc. Even though Dorn is a Half-Orc, Sarevok is almost as strong.

    Even though Sarevok lost his essence, he was still born as a child of a god, and his stats are still ridiculously good. If you combine his STR/CON/DEX, he is a more powerful melee combatant than Dorn, and he is also a genius. He has the Strength and the brains.

    He had everything he needed to become the next Lord of Murder. He was strong, he was intelligent, he was charismatic, and his plan was the product of a genius. If CHARNAME didn't defeat him, I'm positive that he would have ended up on the throne. With a little bit more time and experience, he could have defeated the Five.

    His plan was cunning as hell.

    - Create a war between Amn and Baldur's Gate.
    - Play both sides against each other, using bandit raids to ignite the war.
    - Put the blame on the Zhentarim.
    - Poison the Nashkel mine, Baldur's Gate is lacking proper weapons.
    - Use the Cloakwood mine to make weapons, that weren't affected by the poison.
    - Use the Iron Throne to control the trade coming in and out of Baldur's Gate.
    - Use your Charismatic personality to make the people love you, and have them put you in a position of power.
    - Get rid of the leader of the Flaming Fist and put your own man to command them. Now the army is in your hand.
    - Give the weapons from the Cloakwood mine to Baldur's Gate (The Flaming Fist), become their savior.
    - Now Sarevok is in a position of power, the people love him, and there is a war that will kill enough people for him to be able to ascend (if it is possible).

    What has Dorn achieved when you meet him? Nothing special. If Sarevok had found Dorn on the road, Dorn would have joined Gorian, in a grave.


    Post edited by SionIV on
    Vitorcraymond727
  • EmpyrialEmpyrial Member Posts: 107
    Gotural said:

    On the contrary I think that based on lore Dorn should win easily because he is a Blackguard, and D&D is definitely not a balanced setting or game.

    In most MMO for example, a level 50 Warrior is supposed to be equal to a level 50 Mage, and if it isn't the case, blame the devs.
    But in D&D, a level 2 Mage is supposed to be a lot weaker than a level 2 Fighter because later on, a level 20 Mage alone could easily kill three level 25 Fighters.

    This is also why classes have different XP requirements.

    It is also very roleplay, why bother to spend many years to learn magic if you can become the most powerful guy by just wielding a sword ? Everyone can swing a blade.

    A Blackguard is actually a Fighter who wish to sell his soul and freedom of will to a powerful fiend in exchange for more power, thus I think they should be stronger than simple Fighters.

    I think you and I have different definitions of "lore". Your lore, sorry I'm putting words in your mouth, is a lot more factual and is based around things like levels and experience. Mine is based more around the type of thing you'd read in a novel where you can't define someone's strength with a number or hit dice. I can see where the disconnect is because we're not really talking about the same things.

    Gamewise, I don't know who would win as others in this thread have made really, really good arguments for both sides involving a lot of tactics that I would've never thought of. Storywise, I think if we asked the creative team at D&D who would win they'd have a definite answer that wouldn't revolve around someone's thac0.

    VitorsemiticgodButtercheeseSkatan
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,861
    edited December 2015
    I disappear and return to 25+ notifications. I actually didn't expect this to last that long, @SionIV I did not set these rules to gimp Sarevok, @semiticgod gave a perfect example on why I made the rules the way it is. Plus, when vs two characters, even from games. I never look to game play and mechanic because those are elements that can easily be manipulated and changed; more so in RPGs where player usually have control over EVERY aspect of their character. This means no matter what scenario is placed before the character, through divine intervention aka the player, the character will have a counter.

    semiticgod
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    ...the first one to transform into Super-Sayian wins.

    Buttercheese
  • YamchaYamcha Member Posts: 484
    SionIV said:

    A crossbow bolt will not be able to pierce a full plate armor.

    Isn't that exactly what made Full Plate Armor obsolete(historically), a crossbow bolt could penetrate the armor?

    Gotural
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited December 2015
    Yamcha said:

    SionIV said:

    A crossbow bolt will not be able to pierce a full plate armor.

    Isn't that exactly what made Full Plate Armor obsolete(historically), a crossbow bolt could penetrate the armor?

    I haven't heard this? I just spent five minutes on google, and from what I have found it doesn't seem like they penetrate more than 1-2 inches at the most, if they even get through the armor, and then the padding under will take most of the blow that goes through?

    On this page you can find several small clips where they try normal arrows, and at the bottom is one with a crossbow. While they do penetrate, they deal almost no damage. There are many different crossbows, and arrow/bolt heads, so there might be a specific one that is more lethal?

    http://www.benjaminrose.com/post/can-arrows-penetrate-medieval-armor/

    Here is also someone trying to fire a crossbow at steel plates.

    https://flarcheveque.wordpress.com/crossbow-shooting-on-steel-plates/

    I am no expert at this, this is just what I found. If i can take five arrows point black, with minor injuries, then i'll damn well spend the hours it takes to put on that armor. :smiley:



    semiticgod
  • YamchaYamcha Member Posts: 484
    edited December 2015
    Excerpt from Wikipedia's Crossbow article:

    ...Mounted knights armed with lances proved ineffective against formations of pikemen combined with crossbowmen whose weapons could penetrate most knights' armor...

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited December 2015
    Yamcha said:

    Excerpt from Wikipedia's Crossbow article:

    ...Mounted knights armed with lances proved ineffective against formations of pikemen combined with crossbowmen whose weapons could penetrate most knights' armor...

    First of all I don't always trust wikipedia. Secondly, penetrating does not mean that it causes any injury, it just means that it pierces the plate. So the bolts could penetrate the armor, and still not cause any injury.

    I'm not saying that you're wrong, I would just like to have a reliable source and perhaps a picture or a video. I haven't heard of this before, so I find it interesting.

    Buttercheese
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