Celestial fury vs Carsomyr

MrNooby

So I finally beat that stupid red dragon. Wasn't actually all that difficult it turns out, I just bought a ridiculous amount of buff potions for all my guys, anything I could find that would give them a combat benefit, gave my archers arrows of piercing, used breach when he stoneskinned, positioned fighters on different sides of him so he wouldn't buffet them all at once...and he went down in around 5 seconds. So I finally have Carsomyr.

I'm not a paladin myself, so the only paladin I have is Keldorn, who is currently using celestial fury. I've compared the two swords, and although I know there are ALOT of chaotic evil enemies, it just doesn't have that awesome stun effect on every hit. It seems to me that the stun effect is more useful than Carsomyr is, but I've heard a ton of good things about Carsomyr, and I'm a little unsure what the best route to go is here. Using CF myself isn't really an option - I'm a fighter and I have 5 pips into longswords and 3 into dual.

Caeria

That's interesting. I usually have Keldorn use a two-handed sword, though I did have him dual-wield once...not with katanas though, as his proficiencies really aren't allocated to allow for a lot of flexibility and I don't like abusing EEKeeper. Thus, Keldorn usually uses Carsomyr for a long time, until I can upgrade Gram, and then he tends to use both during the final stages of the game. I've never, ever had him use Celestial Fury, partly because I use it myself a lot, and even when I don't, Keldorn doesn't strike me as the type to go around swinging a single one-handed weapon so there is roleplaying that comes into it.

Anyway, that was rather long-winded, but ultimately, I think you can easily alternate between the two weapons if that is your wish.

MrNooby

I suppose you could consider my use of EEKeeper as cheating. I mean, I don't go around changing profs on characters half way through the game, I simply change the profs of a character when I get one to suit what I would like - limited of course by what profs they can gain.

I've always seen paladins as a sword and board kind of character myself, although I'll admit the katana part doesn't quite suit him.

Caeria

Hey, there's nothing wrong with messing with EEKeeper if you like to, just personally, it's not my thing. I don't judge other people for doing it

Yeah, I see what you mean, but Keldorn just screams two-handed to me for some reason. Maybe because that's how I've almost always used him. Single-handed weapons feel like he'd break them or something, heh. I do especially agree that katanas don't seem to suit him,but if you want to let him use them, don't let that stop you.

Gotural

Carsomyr is more of a defensive weapon with the 50% MR attached to it, you can also hit your own party members with it to dispell Chaos/Confusion and so forth.

If you don't mind the micromanagement, I would go with @Caeria option and use both, alternating depending on the situation.

SionIV

Carsomyr blows Celestial Fury out of the water.

1.) It deals more damage. (20 Lightning damage is awesome, but it's based on luck and enemies can be immune to it).
2.) It has better Thac0
3.) Carsomyr has a higher enchantment, it can hit everything in the game.
4.) You can upgrade it to +6 later.
5.) It has 50% Magic Resistance, this is HUGE.
6.) It dispels on hit, just this ability alone makes it stronger than Celestial Fury.

Celestial fury is a good sword, the stun is awesome and it deals great damage, but Carsomyr is in a completely different league. It would be a more fair comparison if Celestial Fury was +5, and even then Carsomyr would be better.

MrNooby

I don't really know what the chances are of CF actually stunning is - I suppose it's significantly more unlikely in tough battles, where that extra damage from Carsomyr would really shine.

SionIV

MrNooby said:

I don't really know what the chances are of CF actually stunning is - I suppose it's significantly more unlikely in tough battles, where that extra damage from Carsomyr would really shine.

If my memory doesn't fail me, it's a 5% chance, at least for the lightning damage.

1-10 + 3 (+20 lightning/5%)
1-12 + 5/6 (+5/6 Chaotic)

MrNooby

Only the extra lightning is based on chance. I know Carsomyr has superior damage - but the stun for CF is applied for every attack - so with 3 attacks per round on Keldorn, they have to make 3 saves every round, or be stunned for an entire round, unless I've misinterpreted it. Also, CF comes with a shield - is that extra AC not important?

SionIV

MrNooby said:

Only the extra lightning is based on chance. I know Carsomyr has superior damage - but the stun for CF is applied for every attack - so with 3 attacks per round on Keldorn, they have to make 3 saves every round, or be stunned for an entire round, unless I've misinterpreted it. Also, CF comes with a shield - is that extra AC not important?

The hardest enemies in the game are all arcane spell casters, Carsomyr requires one hit to remove ALL buffs from an enemy, divine or arcane. The 50% magic resistance is huge when you fight mages. Carsomyr on Keldorn, turns him into THE mage killer.

I'll take that ridiculously overpowered dispel and 50% magic resistance over a stun, any day of the week. As mentioned above, the +3 on Celestial Fury will prevent you from attacking certain enemies, Carsomyr can hit any enemy in the game.

Lord_Tansheron

Celestial Fury is a very potent weapon early in the game, but loses a lot of power later on. The reason is primarily it's poor damage output. It's essentially just a Katana+3 with 1 extra lightning damage (5% of 20 = +1 per hit on average), which pales in comparison to all the other endgame swords.

The stun is nice, don't get me wrong. But consider that most relevant enemies are actually immune to it. Dragons, bosses, heck, even Liches - I can't remember those being stunnable at all in any way. There are a few notable exceptions (Chromatic Demon, for example) but overall the stun isn't as game-breaking as you might think. Don't get me wrong, though, it is HIGHLY useful still.

The enchantment level is often brought up as CF's big downside, but it's actually not THAT big a deal. There are only a handful of ToB bosses and like 2 special bosses no one ever meets that require +4 or better to hit. Since those (probably?) can't be stunned to begin with, you don't need CF against them anyway.

Carsomyr on the other hand has its utility, but it ALSO has a great damage output. Even without the evil damage bonus it hits very hard, and with it it hits harder than anything else in the game; and several relevant enemies are in fact Chaotic Evil, for example

Melissan

I call it "utility" but that hardly does Carsomyr justice, really. Dispel on hit with no save is INSANELY good against all the casters around, and having 50% MR on top of that, when spells are THE single most important thing to worry about on high levels? It's like you picked the best two effects possible and just stuck them on a sword that hits harder than almost anything else in the game :P

Caeria

@Lord_Tansheron You might want to hide that bit about you-know-who. I'm not sure, but I think this is @MrNooby's first time playing the game and he might not know about that.

Lord_Tansheron

@Caeria Noted, and hidden.

abazigal5

I would have Keldorn wield Carsomyr and have someone like Valygar wield Celestial Fury. I have Valygar dual-wielding CF and his own sword and it is a really good combination; the enemies can get stunned, poisoned, AND jolted with lightning, all at once!

semiticgoddess

I played a Cavalier on my first run of the game and thought long and hard about whether I wanted to use Carsomyr or Celestial Fury. I ended up picking Celestial Fury on the grounds that it was so much cooler-looking.

I've since concluded that Carsomyr is a lot stronger overall, but I still love Celestial Fury.

brus

Does Carsomyr dispel otiluke resilient sphere if it hits the target?

Lord_Tansheron

brus said:

Does Carsomyr dispel otiluke resilient sphere if it hits the target?

You need to actually hit the target, i.e. the hit must properly connect. It will not dispel things that prevent hits in the first place, such as Protection from Magic Weapons or the Sphere you mentioned. It WILL dispel things that just mitigate the hit, such as Stoneskin.

Can't remember what it does to Mirror Image.

lunar

Lord_Tansheron said:

brus said:

Does Carsomyr dispel otiluke resilient sphere if it hits the target?

You need to actually hit the target, i.e. the hit must properly connect. It will not dispel things that prevent hits in the first place, such as Protection from Magic Weapons or the Sphere you mentioned. It WILL dispel things that just mitigate the hit, such as Stoneskin.

Can't remember what it does to Mirror Image.

Otiluke's sphere does not make you immune to weapons, but gives damage immunity to all known damage types.
Thus, IIRC Carsomyr will dispel the sphere, stoneskins, any armor spells and mirror images, too. Only protection from magical weapons or absolute immunity spells will stop Carsomyr as those stop contact completely.

Lord_Tansheron

Good to know! I don't think I've cast Sphere even once in my life.

Gallowglass

lunar said:

Only protection from magical weapons or absolute immunity spells will stop Carsomyr as those stop contact completely.

And once you've upgraded to Carsomyr +6, it'll even strike through (and therefore dispel) Absolute Immunity. (But still stopped by PfMW, of course.)

OlvynChuru

Something else I'd like to mention about Carsomyr is that the 50% magic resistance makes it great against beholders.

MrNooby

Beholders aren't really much of an issue though, when you have the shield of balduran or cloak of mirrors.

UnderstandMouseMagic

I've played through quite a few times with a Swashbuckler.

Most of the time I use CF until late TOB, it seems to stun all sorts. I'm not sure what damage it does but the stun just gets better and better.
Carry Carsomyr around in my pack until I get UAI, then swap them around depending on the opponent.

CF works on Beholders, dual wielded with Belm, they get stunned rather a lot.

ithildurnew

CF is fun and effective, especially vs trash mobs/midrange mobs, etc because of the chance to stun, but overall vs most of the deadliest foes in the game Carsomyr is more useful. The deadliest foes in the game will often be unhittable (at least initially before getting dispelled of protections) with CF, or even immune to stun. Add to that the fact defensively, Carsomyr is obvious far superior.

If you're dealing with the toughest SCS ai foes, then it's Carsomyr hands down, no contest (except of course, situationally when a well timed stun would be the difference maker).

James_M

+5 is better to have than +3 due to better chance to hit (THAC0); the Dispel on the Carsomyr is pretty useful against dragons and higher level mages. I tried the Celestial Fury on one play through - the stun effect is ridiculous/overpowered, do not use.

the_sextein

I have always preferred two handed swords from a role playing perspective and Carsomyr is so powerful that it's a great match for my preferences. The ability to dispel on hit is very nice but how useful it is depends on how you are playing the game. The more mages you have in your party the less you will need it but Carsomyr is always helpful.

Comparing the two weapons toe to toe I think Carsomyr comes out ahead but there are some things that make CF the better choice. You can dual wield CF which will allow you to gain the benefits of two weapons and gain an attack. If you use a speed weapon in the off hand then you will do more damage than Carsomyr per round. If you are using a F/M or F/M/T you could use dakon's Katana with CF and it would grant you extra spell casting, extra armor and similar damage when all is said and done. You also can't backstab with Carsomyr so the dual and multi class thief builds might do better with CF. For a Paladin I would probably go Carsomyr. The sword is practically made to be the best for paladins.

Either way I usually ditch CF in TOB and replace with something that has a higher to hit and damage when dual wielding. I hardly ever have anyone who can wield Carsomyr in my party so I usually use it when I can. My vote for your current setup with Keldorn would be Carsomyr.

Lord_Tansheron

the_sextein said:

If you use a speed weapon in the off hand then you will do more damage than Carsomyr per round.

Paladin 13+ with ** proficiency is 2.5 APR, so CF + APR offhand is 4.5 APR (3.5 MH APR). That means a 40% damage increase.

Carsomyr deals 1d12+5 damage = 11.5 average (16.5 average against CEvil)
Celestial Fury deals 1d10+3+(0.05*20) = 9 damage average -> +40% = 12.6

So CF only deals 1.1 average damage extra against non-CE enemies, 3.9 less against CE. It also has 2 worse THAC0, and 50% less crits (thanks to 2h mastery), but it makes up a little bit due to offhand damage (really just a LITTLE bit though).

In terms of damage, even with an APR offhand it is questionable whether CF even does more overall. And that's ignoring an upgraded Carsomyr or enchantment level issues.

MrNooby

Seems to me CF should have an upgrade in ToB.

Lord_Tansheron

There was an upgraded CF with the old, old, OLD ItemUpgrade mod, it was pretty good iirc. Possibly too good. Maybe someone ported the mod to EE, you could check it out.

Caeria

The item upgrade mod works just fine in EE. Well, there are a few bugs, but they're really easy to fix yourself.

MrNooby

What was the upgraded version like? You could say the same about Carsomyr after all. Sometimes I think 99% of the items are too good, and we're all just spoiled.