Yeah +5 that much I remember. Don't recall if they upped the chance on the lightning proc or something else. It's literally been over half a decade since I last played with it. It seemed super OP back then, but I know a lot more about the game now so maybe I was just being a silly goose. I'm sure if you dig around you'll find the details listed somewhere, but that mod's items were overall just way too good iirc.
@Lord_Tansheron: Your numbers don't include STR bonuses, which shift the advantage in favor of higher APR. Nor do they factor in the damage from Belm or Kundane in the off hand. A paladin will deal more damage with Celestial Fury and Belm than with Carsomyr, even against Chaotic Evil enemies, unless you're (1) below level 13, (2) unhasted, (3) have no Strength bonuses, and (4) have no other buffs. I agree that Carsomyr is the stronger weapon for other reasons, but in terms of damage output, Celestial Fury does more if you combine it with Belm or Kundane (or, pre-EE, the Shadow Thief Dagger).
Come to think of it, why not take pips in both katanas and two-handed swords, plus the weapon styles? Paladins can't get Grandmastery anyway, so they'll have the spare proficiencies for it. Just equip Celestial Fury for melee enemies to take advantage of the stun effect, and equip Carsomyr for enemy mages to take advantage of the dispel magic effect and magic resistance.
Yeah, improved haste doubles the extra attack from your speed weapon. The synergy of combining the stun effect of celestial fury and the slow effect of FOA (if another party member uses it) is devastating to most combatants. The other thing to consider is that any class that is not paladin will have to wait until UAI unlocks in order to use Carsomyr. At that point you are almost in TOB anyway. Celestial Fury is not going to cut it in TOB but it will hit everything in SOA and most enemies can be backstabed in SOA. SOA is probably 90% of BG2. CF does more damage but I'm not trying to say its a better weapon, it can be a more effective weapon choice for some characters and party combos.
If damage is what you are after you could combine Crom Frayer and Scarlit Nijato for 10 attacks a round with 25 strength and poisoning. Instead of wasting HLA's on greater whirlwind you can load up on critical strikes and do double damage 10 times a round. Carsomyr is stuck at 6 attacks a round and cannot combine critical strike with greater whirlwind and you cannot achieve 25 strength with it.
50% magic resistance and auto dispel on hit are major benefits though and ultimately both weapon load outs are great. If you use Celestial fury in SOA you could keep your off hand weapon and switch celestial fury for crom frayer in TOB. Or like semiticgod said, you could switch to Carsomyr in TOB but you would need to master dual wielding and two handed style which might be a pain.
I would use Carsomyr with a paladin. As a Paladin you can get and use Carsomyr early in SOA and just stick with it till the end of TOB. Two handed weapons are great in BG1 as well so you may already be taken care of proficiency point wise.
@Lord_Tansheron: Your numbers don't include STR bonuses, which shift the advantage in favor of higher APR. Nor do they factor in the damage from Belm or Kundane in the off hand.
I did mention the OH, but you are 100% correct, the STR bonuses are missing. My mistake! You're right, that does shift damage towards CF.
Just played through most of the saga with a swash/fighter. He was basically a fighter+. The only thing that ever gave him trouble was magic. Throw a Mage at him and he was in trouble. But a paladin with carmosyr gets really sweet magic resistance, which is so much better than more offense.
50% carmosyr magic resistance 15% from hell/lum 20% from amulet/ring
Put it all together and you are close to the damage of celestial fury, but you can get the protection needed to laugh off any Mage in the game. So much more important than more damage.
I think once you upgrade Carsomyr and are therefore playing ToB, where I would assume there are far more frequent enemies requiring a higher enchantment to hit than CF has - CF is going to be become less and less competitive.
From what I've seen in my own gameplay, I think CF can compete with Carsomyr in SoA, but I also think that's highly situational - and that Carsomyr makes a much better multi-purpose weapon than CF - and once you reach ToB, it's a no-brainer - especially when we also start to see HLAs come into play, which I only got near the very end of SoA.
Also note that the damage advantage only applies outside of GWW. Once that comes into play, Carsomyr handily destroys CF.
This is my thinking though I could be making a mistake somewhere:
If you are dual wielding and you get 3 attacks with your main hand and 1 with your off hand and then you have improved haste cast on you it will double your attacks to 6 main hand and 2 off hand. A Paladin with 2.5 attacks will double to 5 attacks. In the end the dual wielder will have an extra attack each round with his main hand and another 2 extra attacks each round with his off hand. Str bonus would be applied to all attacks that hit. In SOA a warrior class of 13 should be able to attain 4.5 attacks a round when dual wielding which turns into 9 attacks a round with improved haste. So dual wielding would be 9 attacks a round and using Carsomyr would be 5 attacks a round in SOA.
Also GWW is an HLA and you don't get those until the end of SOA when you would be getting rid of Celestial Fury. GWW and Critical strike cannot be used together at the same time but a character dual wielding in TOB will have 10 attacks a round with improved haste. He has no need for GWW and he can use Critical strike to do double damage on all 10 attacks. If using Crom Frayer instead of Celestial fury he does so with a 25 strength which is very powerful.
You would have 1 base attack plus 1 attack for level 13 and an extra half attack for weapon specialization and an extra attack for dual wielding and then another extra attack for speed weapon plus and extra half attack for gloves of extra specialization. In the end it comes out to 5 attacks a round. 4 main hand and 1 off hand. Someone wielding Carsomyr can only push 3 attacks a round which turns into 6 attacks with improved haste. The dual wielder has 2 extra main hand attacks and 2 extra off hand attacks every round. Improved haste ends you up with 8 main hand and 2 off hand attacks per a round. So a 25 str bonus X 10 each round and double damage each time you use the critical strike HLA.
For a character like the FMT who has casting ability and tons of magic protection it can't hurt to have 40% more damage per round and double it with HLAs. Some mage heavy parties and multi class characters can benefit more from dual wielding. Carsomyr is my favorite weapon of the game but my point is that it isn't the best choice all the time.
Also GWW is an HLA and you don't get those until the end of SOA when you would be getting rid of Celestial Fury. GWW and Critical strike cannot be used together at the same time but a character dual wielding in TOB will have 10 attacks a round with improved haste. He has no need for GWW and he can use Critical strike to do double damage on all 10 attacks. If using Crom Frayer instead of Celestial fury he does so with a 25 strength which is very powerful.
There is no question that other weapons will do even more damage, but this is specifically about CF vs. Carsomyr.
Critical Strike is an argument, but keep in mind that against crit-immune targets, you will "only" get automatic hits. This is of course still a good thing, and increases your damage noticeably. How many things are immune to crits depends on your mods. Also note that Carsomyr crits at double the rate outside of CS because of the 2h mastery.
Anyway, if this debate proves anything, it's that dual-wielding is super powerful; not that CF is particularly good. There's half a dozen other weapons at least that do more damage than CF and are also 1h, but as we saw a lot of the damage just comes from STR bonus damage being applied to more attacks. This of course can be quite relevant to a Paladin due to DuHM.
Still, Carsomyr does a lot more than just fantastic damage (and I suppose I'm blinded in that respect because in my mod setup it deals EVEN MORE damage, with the bonus applying to all evil not just chaotic). But I suppose CF should not be overlooked because it really is quite useful to stun certain enemy types (Beholders, Mind Flayers, etc.). Like all utility weapons, though, it's also easy to just switch CF in as needed, and since Paladins usually have pips to spare they can just swap on demand.
I think once you upgrade Carsomyr and are therefore playing ToB, where I would assume there are far more frequent enemies requiring a higher enchantment to hit than CF has - CF is going to be become less and less competitive.
Actually, enemies requiring +4 and higher are surprisingly rare. It's mostly ToB bosses and some very special enemies (Demon Lord in Ust Natha, shade from Deck of Many Things). Among those, enemies both requiring +4 or better AND not immune to stuns in the first place are even rarer. And against stun-immunes you'd be a silly goose to use CF to begin with.
50% magic resistance and auto dispel on hit are major benefits though and ultimately both weapon load outs are great...
Technically it is not an auto-dispel feature. Since the G3 fixpack carsomyr implements the dispel effect as if cast at level 30. Unfortunately the game does not include many creatures able to resist such an effect.
I agree with you there. CF can't keep up at the end game so I would say Carsomyr is the better weapon but it's not the most powerful choice for all character types. Yes dual wielding is powerful but being able to dual wield with CF is a great "feature". CF has a two handed sword base damage that can be dual wielded and back stabbed with in addition to the stun effect and the electrical damage. Dual Wielding and Backstab are very powerful. I believe CF is just as powerful if not more so for some character types for the majority of the game. While it's +3 does limit it and make it less useful than Carsomyr for the last 10% of the game there is nothing stopping you from switching it out with Crom Frayer at that point. For a character who has magic casting ability I believe the magic protection and dispel effects from Carsomyr are less important. They are still way useful and I think they compliment the Paladin almost perfectly. I will say that in the end I agree that Carsomyr is the better weapon if you look at the very end game and nothing else.
Charname will probably have a 22 to 23 strength at the end game so switching from Celestial Fury to Crom Frayer provides a nice bonus but if you are looking at equiping an NPC who has an 18 strength or less, dual wielding Crom Frayer is going to provide a huge bonus. Celestial Fury works as a great weapon for dual wielders until Crom Frayer is assembled. If I use Carsomyr I usually just stick to two handed weapons and long range weapons. I think a paladin is pretty much perfect for Carsomyr because it allows up close dispel without using the long range paladin ability and the paladin has no magic protection outside of items so the sword works great. With any other class you will need UAI to use Carsomyr so Celestial Fury will be the best option. By the time you have UAI you will be leaving the underdark and assemble the Crom Frayer so it all works out.
It's upgraded to +5...I don't rightly remember if anything else is different. I can check after work if no one else does
Celestial Fury +5 To enchant a katana is no simple process. At least, that's what thought before first had it attempted on behalf. In reality, the most difficult part of reforging the already-godlike katana known as Celestial Fury was gathering the myriad ingredients required. Celestial Fury has served well since it was taken from the kensai Koshi in the Temple District of Athkatla. Its provenance before that point is as follows:
et caetera............
STATISTICS:
Equipped Abilities: Lightning Strike: Once per day Blindness: Once per day Combat Abilities: Booming Thunder whenever the sword strikes an opponent (Stun, Save vs. Spell) Shocking Blow chance when sword strikes an opponent (5% chance of 20 additional electrical damage) THAC0: +5 bonus Damage: 1D10 +5 Damage type: slashing Weight: 3 Speed Factor: 0 Proficiency Type: Katana Type: 1-handed Requires: 6 Strength Not Usable By: Druid Cleric Mage
gorgonzola at your service........
and my opinion on CF for late game, upgraded or not, is:
Stun, Save vs. Spell the problem is not foe immune fo stun, but is that in TOB everybody and his brother saves against spell much of the time. In SoA you see a lot of foe stunned, in ToB if you don't use as a routine spells to lower the saves the stun becomes a rare event. Same as sleep that is powrfull in BG and not in BG2 due to increased saves of your opponents. The upgraded version remains competitive, THAC0: +5 bonus Damage: 1D10 +5, but is not the uberweapon of bg2, the +3 have only a 5% chance of some electrical damage over the +3 weapons that are almost ubiquous. But in SOA is very powerfull and you are not, is a real plus, in TOB you are powerfull and you make the difference even with a weapon that is not at the top. And SOA is much longher then TOB. Is the opposite of bastard swords, a couple good ones in the underdark, and a lot o people never finds the second, the better one, but i don't want to spoil you, and in TOB the uber one. So for me using katanas is a good choice, the only problem is the battles with bosses that requre +4 or +5 weapons for dual welders, Hindo's Doom and then? Ok, the second weapon is not so important and you can use an other weapon, whith the thaco that you reach you hit often also with a weapon in wich you are not proficent and 1 pip in an other weapon (crushing?) is a wise choice. If you consider your power in the whole saga and not only in the last battles katanas and CF is a powergamer choice, if you are worried only about the may be last 10% of the saga there are better weapons.
The upgraded one is blue and very beutifull, the +3 is a red that is..... meh Welding it is just like using a certain golemish armour that no trendy adventourer will never use
Are any of the enemies requiring +4 or better to hit actually stunnable in the first place? I'd wager most are not, making the enchantment level a fairly moot point anyway.
As for the save vs. spell, that is an issue of course but keep in mind that high APR also means you get a lot of chances. It doesn't take much to enter into a stun-lock loop after you stun them once, even with decent saving throws. AFAIK stunned = to-hit rolls are made automatically, meaning THAC0 doesn't even matter then.
Are any of the enemies requiring +4 or better to hit actually stunnable in the first place? I'd wager most are not, making the enchantment level a fairly moot point anyway.
As for the save vs. spell, that is an issue of course but keep in mind that high APR also means you get a lot of chances. It doesn't take much to enter into a stun-lock loop after you stun them once, even with decent saving throws. AFAIK stunned = to-hit rolls are made automatically, meaning THAC0 doesn't even matter then.
Not sure about the mechanics (that is, I have no idea, not that I think you're wrong), but I do know when I did stun something, they usually stayed that way for quite some time, if not the whole battle.
Lord_Tansheron, about the enemies requiring +4 or better to hit my point is not that you can not stun fhem, but that in SOA you don't have katanas capable to hit them at all. OK in unmodded SOA there are only few and you can skip one, loosing a powerfull item, and dalay the others to TOB. but if you invest all of your pips in katana in this fights you are screwed. Maybe is not a big problem and aniway in SOA you have very few weapons +4 or more, is not a problem related only with katana users. In TOB against the last boss a dual welder in katanas has Hindo's Doom and then?
About the enemies not immune to stun maybe you are right. Tomorrow if I find enaugh time I will run a test, I have a savegame of the oasis with a fighter mage whith hight apr and pips in katana. I will mislead him and send him alone and improoved hasted. there is a large number of non boss enemies and I will tell you how many get stunned before they die.
Enemy saves vs. spell tend not to drop below 6 even in Throne of Bhaal. It is not true that enemies always make their saves, unless we're talking about Liches and Rayic Gethras, who have saves vs. spell of 1.
A late-game enemy in Throne of Bhaal has a save vs. spell of 6 at best, unless they are a dwarf, gnome, or halfling (few ToB critters are). This means Celestial Fury has a 75% chance of making their save each time. If you have a high-level fighter dual-wielding Celestial Fury with Belm and have another character cast Improved Haste--as is standard for Celestial Fury builds--your target has a 1-(0.75^7)=87% chance of being stun-locked every round, assuming successful attack rolls. This does not require Greater Malison, Doom, or Chant, all of which can increase the chance of stun even further.
Enchantment bonuses matter, but not because of the three enemies in the entire saga who are immune to +3 weapons and less. They matter because they let you break through mantle spells, which can make it extremely difficult to deal with mages, not all of whom use PFMW, even in SCS.
I tested CF +5, but +3 has the same save against stun, in the Oasis area. No mods that change that area in my setup, insane not EE TOB, so the enemies have the normal vanilla hp and I deliver the normal damage whith the dice roll. Fighter mage improoved hasted single welding, whith the items that normally a mlee fighter hafe at that point of the game, so added damage for strenght and grand maestry. 4 APR.
You are right, the enemies fail the save and get stunned quite often, more then 50% of them got stunned, but less then the teorical 87%. Why? Because they was killed really fast, take the 1d10 damage of a katana, add 5 from enchantment, strenght and GM bonus and some other little damage from gauntlets and many died before the save fail or got stunned when they was very low in hp. So in the test CF's capability to stun didn't make a big difference, also because my fighter mage had stoneskins and PFMW and was not taking damage and whith his thaco was missing only on crits.
But on other setups, enemies whith more hp, tank not magically protected and so on the stun would have been relevant.
Even whithout the upgrade CF, THE WEAPON in BG2 (whith FoA, Crom and Carsomyr obviously), remains a very good weapon in TOB, good damage, dual weldable, so the benefits from strenght and proficency are multiplied by a hight APR, and the amazing stun effect that still works.
Thanks, I was underrating CF in TOB, and I was wrong. This tread and your contribution helped me corrrecting my false beliefs.
Your tests illustrate nicely why CF is a bit of an awkward weapon. Most regular a-dime-a-dozen enemies just die so fast the stun hardly plays a role. Most enemies that are actually difficult to beat are either immune to stuns, or have defenses that are the real issue (once you get to hit mages, they're dead, stun or no stun; it's getting to hitting them that's the issue).
There are certainly a lot of relevant enemies you wouldn't mind stunned, of course. Just keep in mind that against most things you encounter, it'll just be fairly irrelevant.
I agree whith you and that is the reason why my fighters usually uses it in SoA and in ToB it rust in the bag of holding...... Another reason is that playng whith tactics CF has to compete whith the katana from the acid kensai.
But anyway remains OP in SoA and very usefull in ToB, spending pips in katana make sense. Another weapon that is underrated in ToB cause is only +3 is the long sword from hell trials, not for her raw damage, but because whith hight APR the welder is most of the time improoved hasted and whith 25 strenght whitout spells or buffs.
Another reason is that playng whith tactics CF has to compete whith the katana from the acid kensai.
That weapon is borderline OP imo. The fight to get it can be a challenge if you don't cheese it, sure, but for something you can get in mid SoA it has endgame ToB damage on it PLUS fast regeneration PLUS the backlash. I never liked it because it just seems too good, but that's just my opinion.
Another weapon that is underrated in ToB cause is only +3 is the long sword from hell trials, not for her raw damage, but because whith hight APR the welder is most of the time improoved hasted and whith 25 strenght whitout spells or buffs.
It's news to me that Blackrazor is underrated, it definitely should not be. It's a very good weapon indeed!
The acid katana is really borderline, but also very dangerous for the welder, for the backlash. If you hit a mage protected whith a fireshield you can start a loop where you deal acid damage and fireshield reacts whith ice or fire damage and you both die in no time or if the mage is protected from acid you die in no time. That is one of the ways I use to kill the acid kensai after dispelling his elemental protections and it never occourred to me in the game while I was welding, but almost nobody uses this weapon and tactics nowadays.
About Blackrazor beingunderrated is something that I found many times surfing the boards and reading old topics. this is the first gaming forum to which I participate, but as guest I have read a lot, here and in other boards, topics from the golden age of bg2, where people was starting to discover things about the new game and more recent stuff. There is always people that think "only +3, TOB =suck".....
Sanchuudoku is awfully strong. I don't mind using it myself, since the fight with Kuroisan is so absurdly difficult. You have to fight very hard to get that thing, much as you have to do to get the Staff of the Magi, Carsomyr, or Celestial Fury. It seems fitting for a highly challenging encounter to yield a very big reward.
It's been a long, LONG time since I faced off with Kuro-chan, can you still stomp him by loading Firetooth with non-magical bolts to get through PfMW+SS? Or did the EE fix that?
@Lord_Tansheron: That's still possible. Though he's immune to fire and he casts spells via scrolls rather than from a spellbook, which means disruption isn't so reliable.
Sanchuudoku is awfully strong. I don't mind using it myself, since the fight with Kuroisan is so absurdly difficult. You have to fight very hard to get that thing, much as you have to do to get the Staff of the Magi, Carsomyr, or Celestial Fury. It seems fitting for a highly challenging encounter to yield a very big reward.
Yes, Kuriosan is absurdly difficoult, and can be absurdly easy if you spot his weaknes. And the Weimer's twisted rune is something special, a mage that has the powerful SoTM and use it as it should be used, always invisible casting nasty spells at you. I love so much tactics mod, and I hate it so much, whith its illegal contingencies whith 9 level spells, whith its reallyforcespell scripts, undisruptable and targhetting you when you are supposed to be untargettable, whith his disrupt magic that debuff your party, whith its cheese and plain cheating. sometimes makes me very angry, and then, when I discover a new way to beat the game is something special. That's the reason why I still use this old mods. they introduce yourself impossible problems, like the triple spell immunities of undead Sola, and force you to go beyond ordinary logic. Is like a riddle whith no solution, a zen koan, and when you find the solution, your original solution, not one grabbed from the net, then WOW! 2 days ago I won the eclipse party, was the first time for me, it took me 4 reloads, the first everione died, the second I won whith only Imoen dead but resuscitabile and the rest of the party chunkified, the 3rd Jaheera not resuscitabile the 4rt all party alive and undamaged and the Eclipse party slaughtered, in 4 or 5 of my rounds (for them the double due to their cheating timestops). The solution was so easy, so obvious ( when you have found it.......). But I was too lucky in founding so early the key to win that battle so little satisfaction for me. Irenicus, Poison Encounter, Twisted Rune and kuiro required days the first time, but then the reward in satisfaction was something really special. The reward in items is OP, the uber katana, the spear, the tons of healing potions and invisibility potions and so on, but the reward in knowledge is even more OP, the mighty demon lord becoes a joke, in some runs I keep him quiet as he try to hit me while I slaughter his gated pets for some millions xp and then, when I am satisfied and bored last a couple of rounds. Whitout Kuiro or the Shattered One, whitout Ilich whith his demon, his level 20 cleric that gates a deva against a low level sorc or against my elves sisters (multi FMT and FM) that being multi had each class at BG level, that would never been possible. Next run whith Melantium and the party in the maze under Spellhod, never tried them, and then I will be ready to swich to EE and to the educated mods you "modern Players" use, mods that improove AI whitout cheating.
Comments
Come to think of it, why not take pips in both katanas and two-handed swords, plus the weapon styles? Paladins can't get Grandmastery anyway, so they'll have the spare proficiencies for it. Just equip Celestial Fury for melee enemies to take advantage of the stun effect, and equip Carsomyr for enemy mages to take advantage of the dispel magic effect and magic resistance.
If damage is what you are after you could combine Crom Frayer and Scarlit Nijato for 10 attacks a round with 25 strength and poisoning. Instead of wasting HLA's on greater whirlwind you can load up on critical strikes and do double damage 10 times a round. Carsomyr is stuck at 6 attacks a round and cannot combine critical strike with greater whirlwind and you cannot achieve 25 strength with it.
50% magic resistance and auto dispel on hit are major benefits though and ultimately both weapon load outs are great. If you use Celestial fury in SOA you could keep your off hand weapon and switch celestial fury for crom frayer in TOB. Or like semiticgod said, you could switch to Carsomyr in TOB but you would need to master dual wielding and two handed style which might be a pain.
I would use Carsomyr with a paladin. As a Paladin you can get and use Carsomyr early in SOA and just stick with it till the end of TOB. Two handed weapons are great in BG1 as well so you may already be taken care of proficiency point wise.
Also agree with most of your other points.
50% carmosyr magic resistance
15% from hell/lum
20% from amulet/ring
Put it all together and you are close to the damage of celestial fury, but you can get the protection needed to laugh off any Mage in the game. So much more important than more damage.
From what I've seen in my own gameplay, I think CF can compete with Carsomyr in SoA, but I also think that's highly situational - and that Carsomyr makes a much better multi-purpose weapon than CF - and once you reach ToB, it's a no-brainer - especially when we also start to see HLAs come into play, which I only got near the very end of SoA.
If you are dual wielding and you get 3 attacks with your main hand and 1 with your off hand and then you have improved haste cast on you it will double your attacks to 6 main hand and 2 off hand. A Paladin with 2.5 attacks will double to 5 attacks. In the end the dual wielder will have an extra attack each round with his main hand and another 2 extra attacks each round with his off hand. Str bonus would be applied to all attacks that hit. In SOA a warrior class of 13 should be able to attain 4.5 attacks a round when dual wielding which turns into 9 attacks a round with improved haste. So dual wielding would be 9 attacks a round and using Carsomyr would be 5 attacks a round in SOA.
Also GWW is an HLA and you don't get those until the end of SOA when you would be getting rid of Celestial Fury. GWW and Critical strike cannot be used together at the same time but a character dual wielding in TOB will have 10 attacks a round with improved haste. He has no need for GWW and he can use Critical strike to do double damage on all 10 attacks. If using Crom Frayer instead of Celestial fury he does so with a 25 strength which is very powerful.
You would have 1 base attack plus 1 attack for level 13 and an extra half attack for weapon specialization and an extra attack for dual wielding and then another extra attack for speed weapon plus and extra half attack for gloves of extra specialization. In the end it comes out to 5 attacks a round. 4 main hand and 1 off hand. Someone wielding Carsomyr can only push 3 attacks a round which turns into 6 attacks with improved haste. The dual wielder has 2 extra main hand attacks and 2 extra off hand attacks every round. Improved haste ends you up with 8 main hand and 2 off hand attacks per a round. So a 25 str bonus X 10 each round and double damage each time you use the critical strike HLA.
For a character like the FMT who has casting ability and tons of magic protection it can't hurt to have 40% more damage per round and double it with HLAs. Some mage heavy parties and multi class characters can benefit more from dual wielding. Carsomyr is my favorite weapon of the game but my point is that it isn't the best choice all the time.
Critical Strike is an argument, but keep in mind that against crit-immune targets, you will "only" get automatic hits. This is of course still a good thing, and increases your damage noticeably. How many things are immune to crits depends on your mods. Also note that Carsomyr crits at double the rate outside of CS because of the 2h mastery.
Anyway, if this debate proves anything, it's that dual-wielding is super powerful; not that CF is particularly good. There's half a dozen other weapons at least that do more damage than CF and are also 1h, but as we saw a lot of the damage just comes from STR bonus damage being applied to more attacks. This of course can be quite relevant to a Paladin due to DuHM.
Still, Carsomyr does a lot more than just fantastic damage (and I suppose I'm blinded in that respect because in my mod setup it deals EVEN MORE damage, with the bonus applying to all evil not just chaotic). But I suppose CF should not be overlooked because it really is quite useful to stun certain enemy types (Beholders, Mind Flayers, etc.). Like all utility weapons, though, it's also easy to just switch CF in as needed, and since Paladins usually have pips to spare they can just swap on demand. Actually, enemies requiring +4 and higher are surprisingly rare. It's mostly ToB bosses and some very special enemies (Demon Lord in Ust Natha, shade from Deck of Many Things). Among those, enemies both requiring +4 or better AND not immune to stuns in the first place are even rarer. And against stun-immunes you'd be a silly goose to use CF to begin with.
Interesting that it actually has a level, might be relevant in Hard as Bhaals mode.
Charname will probably have a 22 to 23 strength at the end game so switching from Celestial Fury to Crom Frayer provides a nice bonus but if you are looking at equiping an NPC who has an 18 strength or less, dual wielding Crom Frayer is going to provide a huge bonus. Celestial Fury works as a great weapon for dual wielders until Crom Frayer is assembled. If I use Carsomyr I usually just stick to two handed weapons and long range weapons. I think a paladin is pretty much perfect for Carsomyr because it allows up close dispel without using the long range paladin ability and the paladin has no magic protection outside of items so the sword works great. With any other class you will need UAI to use Carsomyr so Celestial Fury will be the best option. By the time you have UAI you will be leaving the underdark and assemble the Crom Frayer so it all works out.
To enchant a katana is no simple process. At least, that's what thought before first had it attempted on behalf. In reality, the most difficult part of reforging the already-godlike katana known as Celestial Fury was gathering the myriad ingredients required. Celestial Fury has served well since it was taken from the kensai Koshi in the Temple District of Athkatla. Its provenance before that point is as follows:
et caetera............
STATISTICS:
Equipped Abilities:
Lightning Strike: Once per day
Blindness: Once per day
Combat Abilities:
Booming Thunder whenever the sword strikes an opponent
(Stun, Save vs. Spell)
Shocking Blow chance when sword strikes an opponent
(5% chance of 20 additional electrical damage)
THAC0: +5 bonus
Damage: 1D10 +5
Damage type: slashing
Weight: 3
Speed Factor: 0
Proficiency Type: Katana
Type: 1-handed
Requires: 6 Strength
Not Usable By:
Druid
Cleric
Mage
gorgonzola at your service........
and my opinion on CF for late game, upgraded or not, is:
Stun, Save vs. Spell
the problem is not foe immune fo stun, but is that in TOB everybody and his brother saves against spell much of the time. In SoA you see a lot of foe stunned, in ToB if you don't use as a routine spells to lower the saves the stun becomes a rare event. Same as sleep that is powrfull in BG and not in BG2 due to increased saves of your opponents.
The upgraded version remains competitive, THAC0: +5 bonus Damage: 1D10 +5, but is not the uberweapon of bg2, the +3 have only a 5% chance of some electrical damage over the +3 weapons that are almost ubiquous.
But in SOA is very powerfull and you are not, is a real plus, in TOB you are powerfull and you make the difference even with a weapon that is not at the top. And SOA is much longher then TOB. Is the opposite of bastard swords, a couple good ones in the underdark, and a lot o people never finds the second, the better one, but i don't want to spoil you, and in TOB the uber one.
So for me using katanas is a good choice, the only problem is the battles with bosses that requre +4 or +5 weapons for dual welders, Hindo's Doom and then? Ok, the second weapon is not so important and you can use an other weapon, whith the thaco that you reach you hit often also with a weapon in wich you are not proficent and 1 pip in an other weapon (crushing?) is a wise choice.
If you consider your power in the whole saga and not only in the last battles katanas and CF is a powergamer choice, if you are worried only about the may be last 10% of the saga there are better weapons.
The upgraded one is blue and very beutifull, the +3 is a red that is..... meh
Welding it is just like using a certain golemish armour that no trendy adventourer will never use
As for the save vs. spell, that is an issue of course but keep in mind that high APR also means you get a lot of chances. It doesn't take much to enter into a stun-lock loop after you stun them once, even with decent saving throws. AFAIK stunned = to-hit rolls are made automatically, meaning THAC0 doesn't even matter then.
Was quite useful vs golems.
In TOB against the last boss a dual welder in katanas has Hindo's Doom and then?
About the enemies not immune to stun maybe you are right. Tomorrow if I find enaugh time I will run a test, I have a savegame of the oasis with a fighter mage whith hight apr and pips in katana. I will mislead him and send him alone and improoved hasted. there is a large number of non boss enemies and I will tell you how many get stunned before they die.
A late-game enemy in Throne of Bhaal has a save vs. spell of 6 at best, unless they are a dwarf, gnome, or halfling (few ToB critters are). This means Celestial Fury has a 75% chance of making their save each time. If you have a high-level fighter dual-wielding Celestial Fury with Belm and have another character cast Improved Haste--as is standard for Celestial Fury builds--your target has a 1-(0.75^7)=87% chance of being stun-locked every round, assuming successful attack rolls. This does not require Greater Malison, Doom, or Chant, all of which can increase the chance of stun even further.
Enchantment bonuses matter, but not because of the three enemies in the entire saga who are immune to +3 weapons and less. They matter because they let you break through mantle spells, which can make it extremely difficult to deal with mages, not all of whom use PFMW, even in SCS.
No mods that change that area in my setup, insane not EE TOB, so the enemies have the normal vanilla hp and I deliver the normal damage whith the dice roll.
Fighter mage improoved hasted single welding, whith the items that normally a mlee fighter hafe at that point of the game, so added damage for strenght and grand maestry. 4 APR.
You are right, the enemies fail the save and get stunned quite often, more then 50% of them got stunned, but less then the teorical 87%. Why? Because they was killed really fast, take the 1d10 damage of a katana, add 5 from enchantment, strenght and GM bonus and some other little damage from gauntlets and many died before the save fail or got stunned when they was very low in hp.
So in the test CF's capability to stun didn't make a big difference, also because my fighter mage had stoneskins and PFMW and was not taking damage and whith his thaco was missing only on crits.
But on other setups, enemies whith more hp, tank not magically protected and so on the stun would have been relevant.
Even whithout the upgrade CF, THE WEAPON in BG2 (whith FoA, Crom and Carsomyr obviously), remains a very good weapon in TOB, good damage, dual weldable, so the benefits from strenght and proficency are multiplied by a hight APR, and the amazing stun effect that still works.
Thanks, I was underrating CF in TOB, and I was wrong. This tread and your contribution helped me corrrecting my false beliefs.
There are certainly a lot of relevant enemies you wouldn't mind stunned, of course. Just keep in mind that against most things you encounter, it'll just be fairly irrelevant.
Another reason is that playng whith tactics CF has to compete whith the katana from the acid kensai.
But anyway remains OP in SoA and very usefull in ToB, spending pips in katana make sense.
Another weapon that is underrated in ToB cause is only +3 is the long sword from hell trials, not for her raw damage, but because whith hight APR the welder is most of the time improoved hasted and whith 25 strenght whitout spells or buffs.
If you hit a mage protected whith a fireshield you can start a loop where you deal acid damage and fireshield reacts whith ice or fire damage and you both die in no time or if the mage is protected from acid you die in no time. That is one of the ways I use to kill the acid kensai after dispelling his elemental protections and it never occourred to me in the game while I was welding, but almost nobody uses this weapon and tactics nowadays.
About Blackrazor beingunderrated is something that I found many times surfing the boards and reading old topics. this is the first gaming forum to which I participate, but as guest I have read a lot, here and in other boards, topics from the golden age of bg2, where people was starting to discover things about the new game and more recent stuff.
There is always people that think "only +3, TOB =suck".....
And the Weimer's twisted rune is something special, a mage that has the powerful SoTM and use it as it should be used, always invisible casting nasty spells at you.
I love so much tactics mod, and I hate it so much, whith its illegal contingencies whith 9 level spells, whith its reallyforcespell scripts, undisruptable and targhetting you when you are supposed to be untargettable, whith his disrupt magic that debuff your party, whith its cheese and plain cheating.
sometimes makes me very angry, and then, when I discover a new way to beat the game is something special.
That's the reason why I still use this old mods. they introduce yourself impossible problems, like the triple spell immunities of undead Sola, and force you to go beyond ordinary logic. Is like a riddle whith no solution, a zen koan, and when you find the solution, your original solution, not one grabbed from the net, then WOW!
2 days ago I won the eclipse party, was the first time for me, it took me 4 reloads, the first everione died, the second I won whith only Imoen dead but resuscitabile and the rest of the party chunkified, the 3rd Jaheera not resuscitabile the 4rt all party alive and undamaged and the Eclipse party slaughtered, in 4 or 5 of my rounds (for them the double due to their cheating timestops). The solution was so easy, so obvious ( when you have found it.......). But I was too lucky in founding so early the key to win that battle so little satisfaction for me. Irenicus, Poison Encounter, Twisted Rune and kuiro required days the first time, but then the reward in satisfaction was something really special.
The reward in items is OP, the uber katana, the spear, the tons of healing potions and invisibility potions and so on, but the reward in knowledge is even more OP, the mighty demon lord becoes a joke, in some runs I keep him quiet as he try to hit me while I slaughter his gated pets for some millions xp and then, when I am satisfied and bored last a couple of rounds. Whitout Kuiro or the Shattered One, whitout Ilich whith his demon, his level 20 cleric that gates a deva against a low level sorc or against my elves sisters (multi FMT and FM) that being multi had each class at BG level, that would never been possible.
Next run whith Melantium and the party in the maze under Spellhod, never tried them, and then I will be ready to swich to EE and to the educated mods you "modern Players" use, mods that improove AI whitout cheating.