Top 5 crappy NPCs to have in party BG2EE all the way to TOB endgame.

Bubbles

Hi,

I am curious to find out what you guys think are the top 5 crappiest NPC (hopelessly lousy) to have in a party.

Planning to start a new run with these NPCs.

sarevok57

ah yes I have done this many a time, so I would usually go with: cernd, jan, aerie, jaheria, haer'dalis, now some would argue that haer'dalis is absolutely amazing and blah blah, and in theory yes he can be, but at the end of the day if he isn't buffing up, I find him to be kind of balls, and with this team make up, there is no grand mastery, very small weapon choices, no full mages, HP on everyone will be garbage, saves will be mediocre at best, no horrid wilting from our good ol' friend mr jansen so thats an extra lol, although a lot of divine healing ( which you will probably need) and to top it off, I would make my character a druid, just for the extra lousiness, and since cernd can no longer use quarterstaffs while shape shifted it will make for an interesting play through, I've done this before in the vanilla SoA and made it all the way to the end of ToB before I stopped playing that file, it was pretty good times

semiticgoddess

If you don't know how to use them very well, Cernd, Jan, Jaheira, Haer'dalis, and Hexxat would probably be good choices. They all have tons of potential (we could dedicate a whole thread to that), but only if you know what to do with them.

Bubbles

Hmm, Cernd, Haer'Dalis is 2 of my weakness in boss fights.

I should pay more attention to these 2 NPCs.

Gallowglass

There are no joinable NPCs in BG which are "hopelessly lousy".

I have taken all of the BG1ee NPCs and all-but-one of the BG2ee NPCs through to the end of the game, and all of them can actually be used fairly effectively. It's just that, for some of them, it takes a little more effort to figure out how to use them properly, so some of them get a bad reputation among players who don't know enough to play them well.

Of course some of the NPCs are stronger than others, but that doesn't mean that any are too weak to be useful.

To take a concrete example, Cernd probably gets a worse press than any other BG2 NPC. I assumed those commenting knew what they were talking about, so the negative comments caused me to avoid using him for a long time. Then I decided to form my own opinion instead, and took him along ... and hey, he's actually pretty strong once you figure him out! You often get him at the weakest point of a Shapeshifter's power curve (which is probably the reason for the negative comments), when his ordinary Werewolf form no longer cuts the mustard but he hasn't yet got his Greater Werewolf form ... but if you recruit him later (or just persist with him for a while), then he gets his Greater Werewolf form at level 13 (1.2M XP), at which point you can just transform him to Greater Werewolf and keep him that way, and he's then a darn good front-row melee fighter for the rest of SoA. In early-ToB, his Greater Werewolf form starts to lose effectiveness in melee combat, but by then he should have hit level 15 (3M XP), when he suddenly acquires a great pile of extra spells all at once ... so at that point, you change him back to human form, move him from front row to back row, and use him as a caster, and with all those extra spells he's actually a pretty decent caster (in particular, he's the best NPC Summoner in the game). It's just a matter of knowing what role he's good at, and (unlike most other characters) the best role for him changes as the game progresses.

All this said, I haven't actually offered a list of weaker characters. So, okay ...

Wilson - can deal out quite good damage in melee, but no versatility to do anything else at all, and is rather fragile for the front row, so needs to be carefully buffed;

Hexxat - a good Thief, but an unkitted Thief without some Fighter or Mage or Cleric levels just doesn't contribute enough utility to justify a whole party slot;

Dorn (if "freed") - starts SoA strong, and can remain fairly strong throughout, but if you choose the "freedom" option at the end of his SoA quest then he's severely nerfed;

Minsc - starts SoA strong, but an unkitted Ranger is rather lacking in comparison to other warrior classes and kits for late-SoA and ToB;

Haer'Dalis - strong once he gets his HLAs (and plenty of spins-per-day) in late-SoA, but mediocre in early- and mid-SoA;

Jaheira - becomes strong in ToB, but spends most of the game lagging behind because she levels slowly.

I've offered six options rather than five, since Dorn's inclusion depends upon whether you're willing to nerf him by taking the daft "freedom" option.

SionIV

There are no bad NPC's in Baldur's Gate, just people that don't know how to properly use them. Haer'Dalis is one of the strongest characters in the game, and Cernd is a druid with 18 wisdom, even with the shapeshifter kit not being very strong, a druid with 18 wisdom is not bad.

Bubbles

A few questions,

Hexxat - anyone noticed she has quite a lot of critical hits?

Haer'Dalis -- what weapons should he use during ToB endgame?

Dorn -- any idea how to make him stop pestering for romance without modding (or murdering him)?

Jaheira - any idea why during early and mid SoA, at AC -8 she still get hit very often?

SionIV

Bubbles said:

A few questions,

Hexxat - anyone noticed she has quite a lot of critical hits?

Haer'Dalis -- what weapons should he use during ToB endgame?

Dorn -- any idea how to make him stop pestering for romance without modding (or murdering him)?

Jaheira - any idea why during early and mid SoA, at AC -8 she still get hit very often?

Hexxat - She shouldn't be getting any more critical hits. The only way that I can think of that increases your critical chance is the Two Handed Weapon Style, not sure if the Luck spell does it as well.

Haer'Dalis - Haer'Dalis comes with an illegal ** in Short Sword, so if you have him wield Short Swords, he'll get an additional 2 damage and 1 Thac0. Short Sword of the Mask in one hand and Kundane in the other, is a good setup. You could also chose not to use Short Swords and instead put a Scimitar (Spectral Blade) or Ninjatø (Usunos) and then have Belm or Kundane in your other hand for the additional APR.

Dorn - If you have Shadowkeeper, you can go into the variables and put his romance to 'failed'. You could also tell him that you're not interested? Not sure how it works with Dorn specifically.

Jaheira - She shouldn't be any easier to hit than your other characters. Are you using a ranged weapon on her? The character get a minus to AC in close combat if you're using a ranged weapon. Ironskin (level 5) is an amazing spell for Jaheira, and one of the reasons she is a really efficient tank.

Tad_Has_A_Cold_Olive

A party of 5 Cernds & CHARNAME, probably.

Grum

The only truly weak characters are raasad in baldurs gate 1 (no redeeming qualities. Dies to a slight breeze, can't hit worth shyt and moves faster than everyone else) and Wilson in BG2. Doesn't hit as hard as a kensai, has no protection, can't use any of the great weapons/armor/gear that everyone else enjoys. He is as squishy as a kensai, without the punch, and to add insult to injury he moves fast enough to get himself killed.

I just can't bear taking him in any of my parties.

Gallowglass

SionIV said:

Haer'Dalis - Haer'Dalis comes with an illegal ** in Short Sword

... and if you recruit him later, at level 15, then ** in Long Sword as well. Unless you push really hard in the early game, this tends to mean delaying recruitment until you return from rescuing Imoen.

The extra proficiencies aren't so much "illegal" as "special abilities". Apparently this is meant to represent a racial bonus of Tieflings.

elminster

From what I recall its actually because he is a doomguard.

Gallowglass

elminster said:

From what I recall its actually because he is a doomguard.

Ah yes, I've heard that explanation as well, now that you remind me. Are you officially confirming that the latter explanation is the correct one?

But in any case, it's clearly a deliberate design decision, not some sort of error.

sarevok57

what about 5 biff the understudys and charname? I had biff the understudy in vanilla bg once, and it was hilarious, he is just a fighter with 9s in all his ability scores

Gallowglass

sarevok57 said:

what about 5 biff the understudys and charname? I had biff the understudy in vanilla bg once, and it was hilarious, he is just a fighter with 9s in all his ability scores

Ha ha! Brilliant!

But does Biff the Understudy still exist in the EEs (apart from his scripted role in the BG2 playhouse quest, of course)? Unlike the original games, I've never seen him appear as a substitute in response to any bug or player-error.

semiticgoddess

@Gallowglass: Biff was just there to fill in for any plot-related characters who got killed off. Because BG2 was darker and more serious, they instead used the MINHP1 item and similar items to guarantee that plot-related characters can never die. EE uses the BG2 system for handling plot-related characters: instead of bringing in a substitute, they prevent the characters from dying in the first place.

It would be quite hilarious, however, to kill Irenicus in Spellhold and then fight Biff the Understudy at Suldannessellar.

Kilivitz

Grum said:

The only truly weak characters are raasad in baldurs gate 1

To be fair, though, Monks were not originally intended to be played at such low levels.

Grum

Kilivitz said:

Grum said:

The only truly weak characters are raasad in baldurs gate 1

To be fair, though, Monks were not originally intended to be played at such low levels.

To be fair...he is still worthless. I've used him in two runs now and both times I'd rather have summoning spells than him.

Now my monk Charname+Raasad run? That was truly and utterly painful.

sarevok57

Grum said:

Kilivitz said:

Grum said:

The only truly weak characters are raasad in baldurs gate 1

To be fair, though, Monks were not originally intended to be played at such low levels.

To be fair...he is still worthless. I've used him in two runs now and both times I'd rather have summoning spells than him.

Now my monk Charname+Raasad run? That was truly and utterly painful.

if he is so worthless why to you keep bringing him along? is it for the items that you get from his cloud peaks quest that make it worth while? I would just rather use Khalid and kivan and just scrap rasaad ( or how ever his name is spelled)

Gallowglass

If I'm planning to include Rasaad on the team in BG2ee (in which Rasaad becomes very strong), then for role-playing continuity I'll often include him in BG1ee as well. I agree that in BG1ee he's one of the weaker characters, but nevertheless he's not useless, especially towards the end of BG1ee when he's started developing his innate spells. In BG1ee, I generally find it best to use Rasaad at range for the first few levels (and he seems to be pretty good with Darts), and then let him start going into melee from about level 6 onwards (by which point his fists have become reasonable weapons by BG1 standards).

Even when I'm not including him in the permanent team, I normally swap him in temporarily, to complete his personal quest (which is pretty good, IMO) and get the XP and items.

semiticgoddess

I wonder who the first D&D monk was. Who thought it was a good idea to fight without weapons or armor? And how on earth did he or she survive when they ran into a fighter with a real weapon?

Grum

sarevok57 said:

Grum said:

Kilivitz said:

Grum said:

The only truly weak characters are raasad in baldurs gate 1

To be fair, though, Monks were not originally intended to be played at such low levels.

To be fair...he is still worthless. I've used him in two runs now and both times I'd rather have summoning spells than him.

Now my monk Charname+Raasad run? That was truly and utterly painful.

if he is so worthless why to you keep bringing him along? is it for the items that you get from his cloud peaks quest that make it worth while? I would just rather use Khalid and kivan and just scrap rasaad ( or how ever his name is spelled)

The first time because I didn't know her and wanted to experience the quest. The second time for the challenge (I planned to use him and monk Charname through the entire saga). The second time was fulfilling as the two went from reload addicts to demigods.

Bubbles

Hmm,
My latest shortlist...
1. Me(swashbuckler)
2. Viconia (took her along in case i messed up Cernd)
3. Cernd

So 3 more slots to fill ...
Welcome all opinions and suggestions...

Gallowglass

semiticgod said:

I wonder who the first D&D monk was.

Good question. Answers, anyone?

semiticgod said:

Who thought it was a good idea to fight without weapons or armor?

Some ancient Chinese monks, probably ... as transmitted to the devs of D&D by kung fu movies.

semiticgod said:

And how on earth did he or she survive when they ran into a fighter with a real weapon?

When they first tried it, it probably went very badly.

Nevertheless, those of my friends who know about such things tell me that, if you're quick and know exactly what you're doing, then it is indeed quite feasible for an unarmed guy to win against a guy with a melee weapon, because wielding a weapon makes him slower. A friend of mine (who is serving military) demonstrated this point on another friend of mine one evening a couple of years ago, in the sitting-room of my home. It was actually a rather impressive demonstration ... but unfortunately my other half wasn't impressed with what they did to the furniture .

Yelocessej

Monks, sorcerors, and barbarians are third edition classes that were bastardized adapted for BGII... Honestly they don't really work, but that's just my not so humble opinion...

Yelocessej

Also, when I think of monks, I think of Dragon Quest III. There's a game for "roll" players and "powergamers" right there...

atcDave

Yelocessej said:

Monks, sorcerors, and barbarians are third edition classes that were bastardized adapted for BGII... Honestly they don't really work, but that's just my not so humble opinion...

Barbarians were originally a 2E KIT! Not a class at all. They make much more sense to me as a type of fighter than as a class all their own.
Funny thing about Sorcerers, the modified magic system I use in my own PnP game is somewhere in between Mage and sorcerer. But I don't really like it as an alternative. I prefer the idea that magic works in a certain way in a certain setting. One or the other please! The "choice" feels gamey, not "real".
Monk just isn't my thing. No biggie, just not for me.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Bubbles

I think i can appreciate Cernd better that Jaheira, personality wise (in the terms of banter and voice)
I an quite annoyed by Jaheira's personality (and the voice too ^^, kind of too old for her).

abazigal5

Kilivitz said:

Grum said:

The only truly weak characters are raasad in baldurs gate 1

To be fair, though, Monks were not originally intended to be played at such low levels.

True. Monks at low levels are pretty bad, but I've played a level 40 monk. Care to see his stats?

AC -10
Immune to poison
78% magic resistance
Also, I've seen him deal upwards of 50 damage with one critical. It all depends on what level you play them at.

semiticgoddess

@abazigal5: Take your monk, cast Mirror Image via Ilbratha, and use Slayer Change. There's a weird trick that lets you stay in Slayer form indefinitely if you cast Mirror Image before using Slayer Change, and the Slayer's base 50 MR stacks with monk MR. It also works with the Ascension upgrades to Slayer Change.