@abazigal5: Take your monk, cast Mirror Image via Ilbratha, and use Slayer Change. There's a weird trick that lets you stay in Slayer form indefinitely if you cast Mirror Image before using Slayer Change, and the Slayer's base 50 MR stacks with monk MR. It also works with the Ascension upgrades to Slayer Change.
I got perma-stuck in Slayer the other night. The bug hit when I first slayer changed but went offscreen when Minsc connected his Mace of Disruption against a certain vampire antagonist and the scripted event never took place. I played on for another hour or so in slayer form and nobody acting like it was a big deal before I got bored with the silliness and reloaded....
I had to think hard about this one, but here would be my five picks, in no particular order: Jaheira, Viconia, Edwin, Minsc, Mazzy
Jaheira is still effective in ToB and her spells are still useful but she's mostly best early on by being both an amazing tank and having some of the best summons early game. Those summons become less useful as the game goes on and she becomes solely a stoneskin tank with the occasional use of Insect Plague and such for utility- and her spellcasting ability at level 14 stops all the way to endgame.
Pure clerics just don't get much stronger in ToB. Unlike mages, clerics get an absolute ton of spell slots so getting one spell slot a level isn't a huge gain and most of their spells also don't benefit from levels outside of duration. Viconia's magic resistance is pretty much her only edge over Anomen or Aerie who actually have other abilities as well.
Edwin is just a one-trick pony that brings nothing outside of his extra spell slots. Nalia and Imoen at least have decent ranged weapons as a fallback, whereas Jan and Aerie have their secondary classes to make them more versatile. Edwin does bugger all in fights where his spells aren't as useful and he is also the squishiest character in the entire game.
Minsc - pureclass rangers just aren't good late game. His only advantage is having a versatile choice of weapons thanks to his free points in TWS while being able to wear heavy armor unlike Valygar.
Mazzy is a special case because her performance depends on how well you build her proficiencies. She can still be pretty good but I just don't like frontlines without stoneskin.
Cernd is a late game beast. Not being able to wear armor sucks, but he's a very competent spellcaster with more level 7 spell slots to fit HLAs into than Jaheira.
The only truly weak characters are raasad in baldurs gate 1
To be fair, though, Monks were not originally intended to be played at such low levels.
True. Monks at low levels are pretty bad, but I've played a level 40 monk. Care to see his stats?
AC -10 Immune to poison 78% magic resistance Also, I've seen him deal upwards of 50 damage with one critical. It all depends on what level you play them at.
Yep. Rasaad's ToB questline also means he can get access to Headband of the Devout, which among other things lets the monk use Righteous Magic once/day. Not only does it give a strength boost but it also means max damage each hit. Monks normally do 1d20 damage (+ whatever) at that level, but with that it means he always does max damage (which is a pretty big increase).
@Artemius_I , thank you for your analysis. I also have to balance their conflicts in the process of deciding 5 crappies too x_x. This conflict thing is quite challenging ^^ as i dont plan to edit it away.
Jaheira ... her spellcasting ability at level 14 stops all the way to endgame.
... is just plain false. Jaheira's spellcasting ability doesn't even become seriously good until level 15 (which is a huge leap in casting-power over level 14), and then goes on (more gradually) improving until she caps out at level 21.
Jaheira hits level 15 at 6 million total XP. She hits level 14 at 3 million total XP. You will acquire a lot of experience very quickly in Throne of Bhaal but I'd say its fair to say in a 6 person party it stops progressing until the endgame.
I'm sold that Wilson is the weakest (forgot about the bear!) and my own call was going to be Minsc. I also like Elminster's observation that no matter how redeeming 8M xp may be, Jaheira's progress is just too slow. I will also buy that Mazzy generally comes with a poor configuration that takes most of the game to fix - although low Str for a fighter will be fixed with kit.
That is a very direct front line, so I look for another character who is similarly front-line, and not obviously strong, and my call would be Valygar. This completes your lack of versatility, once committed to the first four. Admittedly, I have never been a great fan of Valygar, but I see him as anonymous in the middle of the pack for most parties, rather than a call out as 'worst'. However, with this party, I think he seals its fate.
We have no arcane, no our only divine is a part-time druid, and no thief. That is a lot of ground for the PC to cover single-handed. Note that the Wilson slot will have to cycle through a couple of other NPCs until the perquisites for the bear's recruitment are satisfied.
Also worth bearing in mind is that this is a sweetness and light party, I think Jaheira is the only neutral, and the bear should love her! So there are no party conflicts, it might even role-play quite well.
Druid level progression does not make Jaheira a weak character. The mistake is thinking of Jaheira as a druid with fighter levels instead of a fighter with druid levels. Losing out on all those spell slots for so long makes her class seem like a lost cause, but only because you're comparing her spellpower to that of a single-class druid, rather than comparing her overall power to that of a normal character. Those fighter levels count for a lot.
Wilson is top on the list x_x. Cernd, however, is far more useful compare to Jaheira IMO, i just tested him out ^^ beginning to love it. Now I am just wondering how a PURE "nature" party would fair agains Melissan ^^.
@sluckers can charisma keep them from killing each other or leaving party? Whats that thing about Sainthood? O_o
Well, I once tried recruiting Keldorn into a party that included Dorn. I had 19 Charisma, but within ten seconds Keldorn started going on about how we were planning to attack the radiant heart and that he would stop us.
I kept trying to tell him that we weren't planning to attack the radiant heart, and that we already had, but my grammatical corrections failed to impress him.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure some NPCs just won't work together, no matter what. I don't know if charisma is a factor.
The Sainthood is that warm sense of accomplishment you get at the end of the game when none of your partymates have killed each other... if such a thing is even possible.
It might help the 'fun' aspect if you stick with your first stat roll, no matter what, for charname (especially if you happen to get low wis/int and roleplay it to the hilt). Edit: By "sticking with your first stat roll" I mean not re-distributing the points.
@dunbar, oh yes it is very challenging to do so. If it is done in that manner, then for most part the charname definitely lean heavily to class/kir skills and whatever items obtainable ^^. Great idea. I guess in this case, Sorcerer or monk could be a better bet.
It might help the 'fun' aspect if you stick with your first stat roll, no matter what, for charname (especially if you happen to get low wis/int and roleplay it to the hilt). Edit: By "sticking with your first stat roll" I mean not re-distributing the points.
some of my favorite games have been played that way! It is definitely satisfying to do a play through with less than optimized characters. Even when I do redistribute, it's usually to match a character that was rolled for PnP. And those rolling and shifting rules are generally far stricter than BG.
It might help the 'fun' aspect if you stick with your first stat roll, no matter what, for charname (especially if you happen to get low wis/int and roleplay it to the hilt). Edit: By "sticking with your first stat roll" I mean not re-distributing the points.
The only times I've ever done that, I've rolled my stats outside of the game, then picked my class based on the roll.
I am curious to find out what you guys think are the top 5 crappiest NPC (hopelessly lousy) to have in a party.
Planning to start a new run with these NPCs.
Most NPCs are viable, but you might try:
Wilson Minsc Hexxat Haer'Dalis Cernd
CHARNAME is a human Thief (no kit), dualed to cleric at level 23. That's one level short of getting UAI, and six million Exp before you regain your thief abilities.
I did do a full run through and did find jaheira, aerie, and minsc lacking by TOB compared to my other "evil party" though not sure if I would call them the worst....haerdilis is pretty bad too as forgot him in my top three list
@brunardo, generally any melee NPCs that requires alot of buffing up before a fight is very tiring to play through. Haer Dalis (i always call him Had The Least ^^) is 1 such squishy NPC. They need so much micro-management ( it is terrible if they are caught unprepared).
@abazigal5: Take your monk, cast Mirror Image via Ilbratha, and use Slayer Change. There's a weird trick that lets you stay in Slayer form indefinitely if you cast Mirror Image before using Slayer Change, and the Slayer's base 50 MR stacks with monk MR. It also works with the Ascension upgrades to Slayer Change.
yeah I know @Bubbles I let dorn and him go at it when Dorn went crazy under chaos spell one time and he chunked him on his first swing...didnt bother to reload as thought he was going to be chunked sooner or later but never thought it would be by someone in my own party during my last playthrough lol
Haer'Dalis -- what weapons should he use during ToB endgame? Being a rogue his main problem as a fighter is APR so I usualy send him in battle whith +APR weapons. Scarlet and belm or kundane, or the sword from hell trials and Scarlet, for 1 less apr but almost costant free 25 strenght & improoved haste. Whith the few enemies that require more than +3 Angurvadal and +1APR OH weapon or 2 strong weapons. Or ranged whith the +1APR bow. Don't know if is nerfed in EE, but whith micromanagement bards can sing HLA song and fight, they must sing when the round begin then, when you read the feedback of the activation of the song fot that round all the attacks and immediately sing again waiting for the next round to start. Whith ranged is easier because there are no fake attacks, you look on the main screen for the expected number of attaks ie 6 whith IH and that bow and you swich to song. you have to use high speed weapons. Whith mlee he benefits of 10 bonus AC on top of the benefits he gave to the party. A 6 APR Haer'Dalis whith 25 strenght, -10AC, making attacks that lower enemy AC, absorb enemy's health or poison and that give IBS benefits to the party is quite effective. But we all know, he sucks.....
Jaheira - any idea why during early and mid SoA, at AC -8 she still get hit very often? Being attacked mlee while she is ranged is a possible explanation, as ti has been told. Another possible reason is that usually players tend to use each character in the same way for all the battles, so is possible that she is always the one that is attacked by enemies, maybe cause is the faster to approach them, so she is also the one who is more hitted. The opposite has happened to me, I had characters that had the most killings even if they was not more powerfull of other frontliners, similar APR, THACO and teorical DPS, was just the role I gave them in the party. Inverting the roles was the other frontliner the hard hitter of the party. I don't see any other possible reason (if you don't factor in modificators against different weapon type of the different armour type.
I find Jaheira Haer'Dalis and Aerie quite powerfull, the fighter-druid from the start of bg2 to end ToB, and I agree that is better used so then as a druid-fighter, the other 2 need some time to gain power but then become very effective, the bard also need good equipment, blades rely to and benefit from the right items more of any other class. But the power of a class or an NPC is at least 50% related on how the player is good in playng that class. There are other classes and NPCs I know less and in my hands have only a fraction of the power they have in other hands.
So the 5 crappy are the 5 a player is not accustomed to and also the 5 that less conform to his personal style or he don't like much. Ever asked yourself why often CHARNAME has a huge % of the killings? Cause is powerrolled? No, some little better stats does not explain that BIG difference. Just because is BELOVED CHARNAME
@gorgonzola, if I have Mazzy in my party, she tends to do a lot of killings as well ^^. Frankly, I am a ranged kind of player, avoiding melee whenever possible or to hit the enemies as much as possible before they reach my frontliners. I tried whenever possible to use Charname as leader... but very often ending up having to put Charname in the midst of the entire party or the rear to avoid getting him/her killed (I don't feel good about this though, kind of like cowardly when the party is looking up to you as the leader). The feeling that the entire party exist just to protect Charname sucks, which is why, now I am looking into other ways of making the game more challenging from a different perspective(like using NPCs I don't like to use or not accustomed to).
Currently, running a party with the 5 NPCs from EE + me as Archer (that bear is fun till he TURNS or you party due to domination--it sucks if you fail to dispel him and you cant outrun him + you don't want to kill him since there is no cleric in party.. x_x but the challenge is fun).
@Bubbles, only in Starship Troopers, the book, the movie changed a lot of things, the leader fight and exposes himself to the same risk he exposes his solders, in real life the general is often in a safe place, as his function is to direct others, and he better do it safe and alive, not to deal damage, is not a matter of cowardy. But in history there are examples of leaders always in the front line and usually their charisma was something legendary. In BG2 only a mlee fighter type has to be so, a mage or a thief, that is much a skirmisher and backstabber would just be unwise.
I see the problem when a strong ranged attacker is dominated, it happened also to me. The best cure is prevention, fighting vampires and other foe that loves to cast domination, and also chaos is problematic. No clerics means also no chaotic commands, but there are few items that prevent from this. not only the helmet, another can be the talking sword, if he is able to swich to it in time as he see that the spell is cast at him. If he gets dominated or attacks you under chaos you can outrun him but not his arrows, but you can make the rest of your party invisible whith potions or the rings Ribald sells (that recharge each day). Usually whith domination AI tends to consider the dominated character as an alley and enemies don't attak him until the spell ends.
@gorgonzola, I don't think the helmet protects from domination or chaos (the description only say charm), I haven't use NI or DLTCEP to look at it yet though. Hmm maybe I should, in case the description is lacking.
@gorgonzola, which spear you mean? I can only read 3 out of the 5 immunities from the helm. They are - Charm, Dire Charm, Domination the other 1 of the other 2 i can't confirm seemed to have something to do with mind flayers (SPFLAYER or something like that while the other is SPwNCHRM or something I don't know what that means). Any idea?
@gorgonzola, the 1 shield I trust a lot is the Shield of Harmony (which do most of the job except Psionics mind blasts which stuns only 1 necklace that is charge based has a temporary block against that + 1 2-handed sword). Even so those flayers could still flay the brains out with such high success rate .. 4 APR ...I hate mind flayers big time !! Skeles has been nerfed against those mind flayers they used to be mowers against those folks.. ).
Comments
Jaheira is still effective in ToB and her spells are still useful but she's mostly best early on by being both an amazing tank and having some of the best summons early game. Those summons become less useful as the game goes on and she becomes solely a stoneskin tank with the occasional use of Insect Plague and such for utility- and her spellcasting ability at level 14 stops all the way to endgame.
Pure clerics just don't get much stronger in ToB. Unlike mages, clerics get an absolute ton of spell slots so getting one spell slot a level isn't a huge gain and most of their spells also don't benefit from levels outside of duration. Viconia's magic resistance is pretty much her only edge over Anomen or Aerie who actually have other abilities as well.
Edwin is just a one-trick pony that brings nothing outside of his extra spell slots. Nalia and Imoen at least have decent ranged weapons as a fallback, whereas Jan and Aerie have their secondary classes to make them more versatile. Edwin does bugger all in fights where his spells aren't as useful and he is also the squishiest character in the entire game.
Minsc - pureclass rangers just aren't good late game. His only advantage is having a versatile choice of weapons thanks to his free points in TWS while being able to wear heavy armor unlike Valygar.
Mazzy is a special case because her performance depends on how well you build her proficiencies. She can still be pretty good but I just don't like frontlines without stoneskin.
Cernd is a late game beast. Not being able to wear armor sucks, but he's a very competent spellcaster with more level 7 spell slots to fit HLAs into than Jaheira.
I also have to balance their conflicts in the process of deciding 5 crappies too x_x.
This conflict thing is quite challenging ^^ as i dont plan to edit it away.
That is a very direct front line, so I look for another character who is similarly front-line, and not obviously strong, and my call would be Valygar. This completes your lack of versatility, once committed to the first four. Admittedly, I have never been a great fan of Valygar, but I see him as anonymous in the middle of the pack for most parties, rather than a call out as 'worst'. However, with this party, I think he seals its fate.
We have no arcane, no our only divine is a part-time druid, and no thief. That is a lot of ground for the PC to cover single-handed. Note that the Wilson slot will have to cycle through a couple of other NPCs until the perquisites for the bear's recruitment are satisfied.
Also worth bearing in mind is that this is a sweetness and light party, I think Jaheira is the only neutral, and the bear should love her! So there are no party conflicts, it might even role-play quite well.
Bonus points to your charisma if you can keep them in line all the way to Melissan. If you do it, the game rewards you with Sainthood.
Whats that thing about Sainthood? O_o
Cernd, however, is far more useful compare to Jaheira IMO, i just tested him out ^^ beginning to love it.
Now I am just wondering how a PURE "nature" party would fair agains Melissan ^^.
1x Archer
1x Ranger
1x Stalker
1x F/D
1x Druid
1x Wilson
this is gonna be tough ^^
I kept trying to tell him that we weren't planning to attack the radiant heart, and that we already had, but my grammatical corrections failed to impress him.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure some NPCs just won't work together, no matter what. I don't know if charisma is a factor.
The Sainthood is that warm sense of accomplishment you get at the end of the game when none of your partymates have killed each other... if such a thing is even possible.
Edit: By "sticking with your first stat roll" I mean not re-distributing the points.
If it is done in that manner, then for most part the charname definitely lean heavily to class/kir skills and whatever items obtainable ^^.
Great idea.
I guess in this case, Sorcerer or monk could be a better bet.
Even when I do redistribute, it's usually to match a character that was rolled for PnP. And those rolling and shifting rules are generally far stricter than BG.
Wilson
Minsc
Hexxat
Haer'Dalis
Cernd
CHARNAME is a human Thief (no kit), dualed to cleric at level 23. That's one level short of getting UAI, and six million Exp before you regain your thief abilities.
Just started a female sorcerer name Squishie ^^
Str 14
Dex 19
Con 11
Int 12
Wis 7
Cha 13
^^ she is feeling rather insecure at the moment xD.
They need so much micro-management ( it is terrible if they are caught unprepared).
Being a rogue his main problem as a fighter is APR so I usualy send him in battle whith +APR weapons.
Scarlet and belm or kundane, or the sword from hell trials and Scarlet, for 1 less apr but almost costant free 25 strenght & improoved haste. Whith the few enemies that require more than +3 Angurvadal and +1APR OH weapon or 2 strong weapons.
Or ranged whith the +1APR bow.
Don't know if is nerfed in EE, but whith micromanagement bards can sing HLA song and fight, they must sing when the round begin then, when you read the feedback of the activation of the song fot that round all the attacks and immediately sing again waiting for the next round to start. Whith ranged is easier because there are no fake attacks, you look on the main screen for the expected number of attaks ie 6 whith IH and that bow and you swich to song. you have to use high speed weapons. Whith mlee he benefits of 10 bonus AC on top of the benefits he gave to the party.
A 6 APR Haer'Dalis whith 25 strenght, -10AC, making attacks that lower enemy AC, absorb enemy's health or poison and that give IBS benefits to the party is quite effective.
But we all know, he sucks.....
Jaheira - any idea why during early and mid SoA, at AC -8 she still get hit very often?
Being attacked mlee while she is ranged is a possible explanation, as ti has been told.
Another possible reason is that usually players tend to use each character in the same way for all the battles, so is possible that she is always the one that is attacked by enemies, maybe cause is the faster to approach them, so she is also the one who is more hitted. The opposite has happened to me, I had characters that had the most killings even if they was not more powerfull of other frontliners, similar APR, THACO and teorical DPS, was just the role I gave them in the party. Inverting the roles was the other frontliner the hard hitter of the party.
I don't see any other possible reason (if you don't factor in modificators against different weapon type of the different armour type.
I find Jaheira Haer'Dalis and Aerie quite powerfull, the fighter-druid from the start of bg2 to end ToB, and I agree that is better used so then as a druid-fighter, the other 2 need some time to gain power but then become very effective, the bard also need good equipment, blades rely to and benefit from the right items more of any other class.
But the power of a class or an NPC is at least 50% related on how the player is good in playng that class. There are other classes and NPCs I know less and in my hands have only a fraction of the power they have in other hands.
So the 5 crappy are the 5 a player is not accustomed to and also the 5 that less conform to his personal style or he don't like much.
Ever asked yourself why often CHARNAME has a huge % of the killings?
Cause is powerrolled? No, some little better stats does not explain that BIG difference.
Just because is BELOVED CHARNAME
Frankly, I am a ranged kind of player, avoiding melee whenever possible or to hit the enemies as much as possible before they reach my frontliners.
I tried whenever possible to use Charname as leader... but very often ending up having to put Charname in the midst of the entire party or the rear to avoid getting him/her killed (I don't feel good about this though, kind of like cowardly when the party is looking up to you as the leader).
The feeling that the entire party exist just to protect Charname sucks, which is why, now I am looking into other ways of making the game more challenging from a different perspective(like using NPCs I don't like to use or not accustomed to).
Currently, running a party with the 5 NPCs from EE + me as Archer (that bear is fun till he TURNS or you party due to domination--it sucks if you fail to dispel him and you cant outrun him + you don't want to kill him since there is no cleric in party.. x_x but the challenge is fun).
But in history there are examples of leaders always in the front line and usually their charisma was something legendary.
In BG2 only a mlee fighter type has to be so, a mage or a thief, that is much a skirmisher and backstabber would just be unwise.
I see the problem when a strong ranged attacker is dominated, it happened also to me.
The best cure is prevention, fighting vampires and other foe that loves to cast domination, and also chaos is problematic. No clerics means also no chaotic commands, but there are few items that prevent from this.
not only the helmet, another can be the talking sword, if he is able to swich to it in time as he see that the spell is cast at him.
If he gets dominated or attacks you under chaos you can outrun him but not his arrows, but you can make the rest of your party invisible whith potions or the rings Ribald sells (that recharge each day). Usually whith domination AI tends to consider the dominated character as an alley and enemies don't attak him until the spell ends.
I can only read 3 out of the 5 immunities from the helm.
They are - Charm, Dire Charm, Domination
the other 1 of the other 2 i can't confirm seemed to have something to do with mind flayers (SPFLAYER or something like that while the other is SPwNCHRM or something