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ToB Dorn's Blade gone wrong

I finished Dorn's questline and got him to stay with Uth Goroth to get the nice Mask but later dismissed him because I wanted Keldorn. Oh and before I dissmissed him I took his blade which does +damage to demons. Lo and behold when I summon him through fate spirit in ToB he came with another Abyssal blade that does extra damage to Devils, which is the opposite choice I made in SoA for him. Am I screwed? Is the his questline going to be messed up? Please no spoilers this is my first time with playing this ToB quest.

Comments

  • biffyclangerbiffyclanger Member Posts: 207
    Ahhh just summoned Rasaad and he also has a duplicate of all his and personal items which i dropped when i told him to look after the twofold trust. This lacking in continuity is really really annoying.

    Mortianna
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,304
    I think it has to do with the fact that those NPCs who are in your party at the end of SoA, go into ToB "as are" - exactly how you have developed them and exactly with items you carry.

    But those who are not in your party at the end of SoA, and whom you summon in ToB, appear to be pre-mage, game versions of those NPCs, and the fact you had them once in your SoA party doesn't matter, The game doesn't remember NPCs you left in SoA and bring you their standard versions.

  • biffyclangerbiffyclanger Member Posts: 207
    Ok thx for the reply. I mean it can't be that hard to code for surely. I mean when I pick up party members again in SoA the game remembers their equipment when they left right? So the game does remember that info anyway. Plus for someone like Dorn how his quest turned out is imbued in the sword that he carries, its pretty lazy for the developer to not code a few extra lines to make him line up to the choices I made in SoA especially in EE where ToB is no longer an expansion. Very disappointing and immersion breaking...

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    Ok thx for the reply. I mean it can't be that hard to code for surely. I mean when I pick up party members again in SoA the game remembers their equipment when they left right? So the game does remember that info anyway. Plus for someone like Dorn how his quest turned out is imbued in the sword that he carries, its pretty lazy for the developer to not code a few extra lines to make him line up to the choices I made in SoA especially in EE where ToB is no longer an expansion. Very disappointing and immersion breaking...

    There are twenty-one different NPCs you could potentially pick up during SoA. Asking the game to track the exact conditions of each of them after leaving your party may not be impossible, but it would probably add a lot of unwieldy variables onto an engine that's not exactly optimized for that sort of thing.

    semiticgod
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Yeah, Dorn doesn't carry over your choices if you ditch him, I believe I raised this in the bug forum, but Dorn not only musses up his weapon choice, if you choose to take down both of them, he'll be a blackguard again in ToB and mention both names of his patrons in his ToB quests (and do something that doesn't make sense if he doesn't have a patron).

    It won't stop you finishing the quest, it will look silly or strange in places.

    bob_veng
  • biffyclangerbiffyclanger Member Posts: 207
    shawne said:

    Ok thx for the reply. I mean it can't be that hard to code for surely. I mean when I pick up party members again in SoA the game remembers their equipment when they left right? So the game does remember that info anyway. Plus for someone like Dorn how his quest turned out is imbued in the sword that he carries, its pretty lazy for the developer to not code a few extra lines to make him line up to the choices I made in SoA especially in EE where ToB is no longer an expansion. Very disappointing and immersion breaking...

    There are twenty-one different NPCs you could potentially pick up during SoA. Asking the game to track the exact conditions of each of them after leaving your party may not be impossible, but it would probably add a lot of unwieldy variables onto an engine that's not exactly optimized for that sort of thing.
    But EE only has to track 4... the others don't get personal quests in ToB.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    But notEENPCs get personal equipement and a lot of other things, like spell learning, proficiences chosen, that are as much relevant. Also if the game would remember there could be some problems.
    Imagine that a charname FT right out from Irenicus's Prison recruits Jan, to take his special thief stuff for when he will have UAI, and immediately dismiss him. Then in ToB he recruits Jan again, whith the gama that remember he will have an early SoA level Jan.....
    There are sound reasons why the original developers choosed to use defoult ToB level NPCs for the toons not in the party, and why EE ones followed their steps.
    And you are nor screwed at all. You can easily edit proficiences and skills, learn again spells.
    For ToB EE NPCs quests you can continue them with the defoult choices of their ToB toons or edit their variables to simulate different SoA choices.

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,346
    It is handwaved in the game that when you abandon a npc in soa, and then summon him/her via spirit gate in tob, his/her reality and fate is altered slightly, hence the changes in levels/spells/equipments and everything.

    In game engine terms, every npc has a default tob character file and unless they are in the party at the start of tob, they will be summoned in their default tob forms, unless they were permanently killed in soa.

    gorgonzolaJuliusBorisov
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    You explained very well what i intended as "defoult ToB level NPCs"

  • biffyclangerbiffyclanger Member Posts: 207
    I sorry I don't buy this at all. Cromwell checks all ur items to see if you have component so why can't SoA - ToB check which Equipment you have and record them its a 1 or 0? I don't code but even I can see its not that difficult to set up.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    Cromwell checks YOUR inventory.
    To remember everything for every NPC (proficency choices, banter progression, spells learned, skills, romance, level, lev drain or other effects like blindness not already cured, and on and over) a lot of variables have to be cecked for every NPC.

    Not that the modern computers can't handle this, but is quite a bit of human work to implement it. and that, as I told, can lead to negative situations like having the NPCs at early or mid SoA level.

    I can't tell if is a developer's choice, if they tink that like now is the better tradeoff between pros and cons, if is just lazyness or they have invested their time in something more usefull, like fixing bugs or developing new features.

    But as you can fix everithing in 5 min using EEkeeper I don't see it as a big problem.

  • biffyclangerbiffyclanger Member Posts: 207
    That's exactly my problem, all they need is the check in my inventory if I have Dorn's blade and which one it is... if it can be fixed so easily why not do it in game?

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087

    That's exactly my problem, all they need is the check in my inventory if I have Dorn's blade and which one it is... if it can be fixed so easily why not do it in game?

    What if you threw the weapon away? Nothing to check, yet still potentially immersion-breaking when you summon Dorn and he has the wrong weapon, or even the one you got rid off.

    In the end, it's just a matter of prioritization. It's not impossible to do, but doing it takes time. Time is a resource in game development that is very finite. Decisions have to be made as to what needs more attention to detail, and what can be written off as a relatively minor suspension of disbelief and immersion. Obviously the game can't be perfectly adherent to all aspects and details of RP, so compromise is the only option.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    "the check in my inventory if I have Dorn's blade"

    Maybe obtained with EEkeeper.....
    A player is not supposed to steal NPCs equipement. In real life they do it, cheat in equipement that will be availlable a lot later in the game, give to the whole party boots of speed,give charname immunities, illegal or unrealistic stats and more APR. But are developers supposed to deal with this, to change the game to favour such things?

    I know, steal NPCs items is not a cheat, and if charname have certain alignments can even have a RP reason.
    But from a RP poin of wiew do you think that Dorn would be so happy to give you his sword? At least take it and then kill him in a fair (or unfair) duel, to simulate that you have looted it.
    And in ToB "look, there is that nice charname, the one who has stolen my sword. Yes, I am really happy to meet him, and wish he have a place for me in his party".
    Dorn??? His very special sword???
    I bet he will eat your ears if he meet you again......

    If it can be fixed so easily why not do script him to attack you and feed himself with your ears and sacrificate your precious Bhalspawn blood on the altar of his Demon Master. That is the Dorn that everybody know and love (or hate).

  • biffyclangerbiffyclanger Member Posts: 207

    That's exactly my problem, all they need is the check in my inventory if I have Dorn's blade and which one it is... if it can be fixed so easily why not do it in game?

    What if you threw the weapon away? Nothing to check, yet still potentially immersion-breaking when you summon Dorn and he has the wrong weapon, or even the one you got rid off.

    In the end, it's just a matter of prioritization. It's not impossible to do, but doing it takes time. Time is a resource in game development that is very finite. Decisions have to be made as to what needs more attention to detail, and what can be written off as a relatively minor suspension of disbelief and immersion. Obviously the game can't be perfectly adherent to all aspects and details of RP, so compromise is the only option.
    I am sorry no just no. It doesn't even need to check my inventory only remember which choice I made at the end of Dorn's quest!!!! How hard is that! The game already remembers Romances from SoA to ToB by a value called JaheiraRomance Active "value". Don't tell me Dorn's decision can't be 'remembered" by the game in a similar manner, this is ridiculous. So weather I kept the weapon is actually irrelevant. You guys are really grasping at straws here.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    edited January 2016
    I'm not sure what part of my saying "it's not impossible to do" could be construed as me telling you you it "can't be remembered". I literally said it CAN, it's just something that needs work put in to code etc. Work that costs time, which isn't available ad infinitum.

    This isn't about should it be done or could it be done, it's about how important is it in the grand scheme of things. And the answer was apparently "not important enough".

    People tend to underestimate just how much stuff needs to be done during the development of a title. Even things that are fairly minor, such as this issue, take some time to fix. And in the end it was apparently decided it's just not a high enough priority problem. That's all there's to it.

    semiticgod
  • biffyclangerbiffyclanger Member Posts: 207
    I don't know why it wasn't already in the game and need a 'fix'. BG2EE is shipped with SoA and ToB in one package. I would totally understand your point back in the days when SoA and ToB where separate entities. Yeah ok I get it. Summoning characters with pre-made choices would have been much less time consuming to track across 2 separate games. Since BG2EE is now 1 game package that has new character content for both SoA and ToB and now with 1 install location to argue that it would time consuming is simply ridiculous. Just add 1 more global variable... 1 more line of code to read the said variable in ToB. 1hr maximum spent by an intern probably can do it. Come on Beamdog you can do better than that. If it were a nightmarish puzzle with multiple variable then yeah I agree with you, time and cost would have been an issue. But nope there is only 3 possible outcomes for Dorn, no excuses come on.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087

    1 more line of code to read the said variable in ToB. 1hr maximum spent by an intern probably can do it.

    If you think this is an accurate depiction of this sort of work, you are mistaken. A game like BG is massive, and even the smallest changes have to go through instance upon instance of implementation, checking, re-checking, QA, etc. It's a significant investment of time and work, and that always means it has to be very carefully evaluated beforehand as to whether it's worth doing or not. Evidently it was decided that it is not worth the effort, and given how minor of an impact this particular issue has on the VAST majority of the playerbase, I can't say I disagree.

    Getting lost trying to fix all the small details is how games end up delayed for shipping, or ship with other problems unfixed. It's just a reality of game design, and (usually) not ill will, negligence, or sloppiness.

    semiticgodgorgonzola
  • biffyclangerbiffyclanger Member Posts: 207
    Its even more abhorrent in this case. The decision to say that important choices made by your own NPCs are not worth the time to keep consistent so players can have an immersive experience. Sheesh.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    I hope you realize just how many such small details there are in this game, and that not everyone actually cares about every little inconsistency. In fact, many players aren't all that focused on RP to a point where they'd even notice. It's not an IDEAL situation, but you have to draw lines somewhere. Time is a finite resource. If you add at one end you have to take away at another. The only thing that the developers can do is decide how to shift things around, but in the end SOMETHING will end up a bit short by someone's measure.

    semiticgodgorgonzola
  • biffyclangerbiffyclanger Member Posts: 207
    Maybe my expectation going into EE content was a bit too high. All their characters sounds so great on paper...

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 10,709
    To add to @Lord_Tansheron's point, if the devs spent X number of hours fixing one bug, they'd be spending X number of hours not fixing a completely different bug.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    I agree with @Lord_Tansheron and @semiticgod.
    There are a lot of other bugs and inconsistencies like the clerics that every time you take them beyond a certain level have a brand new clerical ring if you have taken the previous, I don't know if EE fixed it.
    The original developers implemented the calling of NPCs in ToB mainly to give the chance to have a party for people starting a new game there, and optimized them for that purpose. And the EE ones followed that route, because it work well, even with inconsistencies, and had to focus on other things.
    Implementing an alternate treatment of dropped NPCs for the ones who continue from SoA, giving a continuity, is a massive work. And there are issues of lack of continuity far more important then the Dorn choice. One over all the level of NPCs, I mentioned other before. Why to give Dorn a special treatment, and only for the quest choice and not other relevant things?

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,172
    there could be a check to see which items the character should spawn with. if you already have the same item in the inventory, it's duplicate won't appear on the character. at least that's not hard, right?

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    edited January 2016
    This can introduce further bugs. Take as example the clerical ring bug, the game can not easily detect if you have or had another cleric or you stole the ring you have in inventory from the cleric that join again. The easiest and logic way is to assume that the player don't cheat, is clear that it was granted to that cleric for his good service to the church and his God and not intended to power up your F/T with UAI. If you don't cheat just throw away the second ring, if you cheat.... enjoy.
    For some unique named items or NPC items there is less risk, but still some testing is involved, a lot of work more then the simple writing few code lines.

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