This thread is for asking questions on D&D lore. To start off:
We all know that the Bhaalspawn are the children of Bhaal. Have any other gods or goddesses created mortal progeny before or since, and what were the results? Anyone know?
There is a legend that says that after having a premonition of her death by Helm during the Time of Troubles (around 1300 years before they began) Mystra possessed the body of the sorceress Elue Shandur. She then went on to marry and birth the Seven Sisters. The purpose of this was to give her successor access to the support of nearly immortal allies, as she had previously found that most humans could not contain the power of the chosen without becoming corrupted or destroying themselves (so her plan was to create offspring who could).
(You can read all about this in the History of the Chosen of Mystra book in-game)
Also Bane predicted that he would die and created a plan to use his half-demon son Iyachtu Xvim as a means of resurrection (and he succeeded in doing this).
I have one... Which is more valuable: Mithral or Adamantite? Which of these would make a more powerful golem? Are there any other unique properties I should know about these made up metals?
@mashedtaters I know very little about his adventures or exploits, but I do know that Elminster (and Volo) was created by Ed Greenwood, who created the FR setting. This makes him kinda important.
I understood that adamantite was the ultimate, making +5 armor, with mithril/mithral (I've seen both spellings) a close second, making +4 armor. Also, I think adamantite is associated primarily with dwarves, or is best worked by dwarven smiths, and mithril is associated more with elves. That's all that comes to mind offhand. Hope this helps at least a little...
No offense to @elminster intended... But I have no idea who Elminster is or why he is so important in the FR setting. Anyone care to enlighten me?
Elminster Aumar is a high-level mage, some 1300 years old mage. Once a prince from a long-forgotten realm, he's important for the Forgotten Realms mostly because he's one of the first Chosen of the Goddess of Magic, Mystra. Each deity has one or more Chosen, personalities with particular abilities that are tasked with promoting their god's portofolios and carrying out their agenda. As he himself states in Ed Greenwood's latest book (Spellstorm, which I higly recomend, to anyone interested in Lore of the Forgotten Realms), he is not the most powerful wizard of all: he himself states that Telamont Thantul, Larloch and the Shrinshee among others are his equals if not better in the Art. Nonetheless, following the Spellplague, Mystra entrusted Elminster with the Weave, making him more than a simple user of the Weave, something more akin to a Weave-Master as he says. He WAS in the Weave, and that gave him tremendous insight on how the Weave works and how to use it for Mystra's benefits. Only a being of great spirit and endurance could possibly have carried out the task of being the Weave Master while Mystra was silent (but not dead, as he points out to Manshoon). Apart from that, he's also behind protecting Cormyr and many other realms more times that he could remember against the ever-reaching grasp of the Cult of the Dragon, the Shades, the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards. He trained some of the seven sisters in the Art (Laeral, Alustriel and the Symbul if I am not mistaken) and at one point he also had Vangerdahast as his apprehentice. Hope this helps. I highly recommend reading Ed Greenwood's Elminster series to have a deeper insight on the Old Mage.
No offense to @elminster intended... But I have no idea who Elminster is or why he is so important in the FR setting. Anyone care to enlighten me?
He's one of the most powerful mages in the FR setting and is a Chosen of Mystra (this basically means that Mystra, the goddess of magic, gives him special powers).
No offense to @elminster intended... But I have no idea who Elminster is or why he is so important in the FR setting. Anyone care to enlighten me?
He's one of the most powerful mages in the FR setting and is a Chosen of Mystra (this basically means that Mystra, the goddess of magic, gives him special powers).
I'd like to add that Elminster is like a chess player on a board where evil powers are the opponent. While Red wizards and Zhentarim conspire to conquer and enslave, Elminster sends adventurers and gives them clues towards defeating such evils. I believe he is a force of Goodness who wishes the best for Faerun.
No offense to @elminster intended... But I have no idea who Elminster is or why he is so important in the FR setting. Anyone care to enlighten me?
He's one of the most powerful mages in the FR setting and is a Chosen of Mystra (this basically means that Mystra, the goddess of magic, gives him special powers).
I'd like to add that Elminster is like a chess player on a board where evil powers are the opponent. While Red wizards and Zhentarim conspire to conquer and enslave, Elminster sends adventurers and gives them clues towards defeating such evils. I believe he is a force of Goodness who wishes the best for Faerun.
He is just pretending to be good. He owns shares in every weapons manufacturer in the realms, and he encourages sales to the bad guys. He then recruits adventurers to come in and beat the bad guys before they can destroy society. Then he invests in an up and coming bad guy, so they can get on their feet and buy from his businesses. Wash, rinse, repeat. Get personally involved only if your projects go too far.
@Tresset As far as Mithral and adamantium, they are different from each other. Mithral is mined from deep within the ground, and is as hard as or harder than and lighter than steel. Adamantium is from fallen stars, and is roughly the same weight as steel, but much harder than Mithral. They have different properties. Mithral, in 3.5 pnp, reduces weight to 25% of the original without reducing AC. Adamantium provides damage reduction. I have no idea about 4e, because I couldnt stand it. I haven't played dnd next yet. I don't know whether one is more valuable as in useful than another, but adamantium is more rare and more expensive. They just have different applications. Elves and dwarves both like Mithral. adamantite golems are more powerful than Mithral golems in 3.5.
Random Lore Question: So in 3e/3.5e and 5e Bards gain access to a selection of Arcane spells. Some of these are Bard specific spells while others are just enchantment/illusion spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list. They do, however get access to the cure x wounds line. If cure wounds can be cast as an arcane spell, therefore being powered by The Weave and such, couldn't a Wizard or Sorcerer learn to cast Cure x Wounds? This is of course throwing balance out the window and speaking from an in-universe standpoint.
@Vallmyr, I believe that all magic, including divine magic, is powered by the Weave. Certain spells, such as healing, were restricted to clerics by divine order of the gods, not because it was not theoretically possible for a wizard to cast a healing spell. Since Mystra controls the Weave, she would be able to enforce divine dictates about who can cast what spells and what they have to do to make them work.
@BelgarathMTH , I like your way of thinking, but I respectfully disagree with you. Rather, I think Arcane and Divine magic are two different entities and do not usually overlap. I see the fact that bards can cast cure spells similar to their ability to bolster morale through their music: the bard's "cure" spell is more akin to an "encouragement" not to give up, to hold on and continue their quest. That's in line with the fact that, equal levels, Bard's "cure" spells will always be lower than a cleric's (a lev 5 cleric can cure serious wounds, where a lev 5 bard is still stuck to curing Moderate wounds). Plus, a recent study published by Trust of Morandin and colleagues, reported in Flamerule's issue of the Journal of Pure and Applied Alchemy, shows that the placebo effect is higher in patients cured by bards' spells than patients treated by clerics.
That might be the problem. It sounds like the lore is changing and being retcon'd fairly often and I imagine not all authors keep as up to date as they should.
So I guess you're right. It appears that in FR lore, healing and all other exclusively divine powers are innate powers of certain gods, or of the Force/Balance of Nature, independent of the Weave, and gifted only to the devout by those gods, or by the discipline of druids (who in some 3rd edition lore, are required to worship a Nature god to access the powers of Nature).
Still doesn't explain about bards and healing, unless maybe Oghma, the God of Bards, is doing that. Actually, that idea makes a lot of sense to me.
Random Lore Question: So in 3e/3.5e and 5e Bards gain access to a selection of Arcane spells. Some of these are Bard specific spells while others are just enchantment/illusion spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer list. They do, however get access to the cure x wounds line. If cure wounds can be cast as an arcane spell, therefore being powered by The Weave and such, couldn't a Wizard or Sorcerer learn to cast Cure x Wounds? This is of course throwing balance out the window and speaking from an in-universe standpoint.
They had access to cure spells in 1e too. Bards in 1e were triple-classed Fighter->Thief->Druids. So, they had access to druidic spells, including cure spells. So, I guess odd Bards get cure spells?
Game-lore wise, bardic magic is different that wizard magic. In 3e, all bard spells require a verbal component (i.e., playing, singing, reciting poetry), so the spells are different than those cast by a wizard (even if the effect is the same as a particular wizard spell). A wizard could learn bardic magic, but that would require learning a new way of casting spells (i.e. multi-classing as a bard).
@Grum, I think @AstroBryGuy hit on something important by reminding us that the original 1st edition "bard" was required to have druid levels. I'm not sure what Gygax was thinking with that, actually.
A bard is not required to worship Oghma. Many of them worship Oghma's "right hand" and "left hand" associated deities, Deneir and Milil, but many worship other deities, or are even Faithless. My guess is that Oghma makes it possible for all bards to cast healing and a few other divine spells through bardic skill, regardless of whether they are direct worshipers, because the welfare of all bards is one of the main duties of his portfolio. I base that idea on 3rd edition lore, not 1st or 2nd, although, as @AstroBryGuy says, 1st edition put the divine element of the bard's skills into the D&D lore system with that strange requirement of druid levels for the original class, which was presented in the appendices of the 1st edition AD&D Player's Handbook as an optional "prestige class".
I got one for you guys. What do we know about Alorgoth besides what is depicted in Rasaad questline? He must be quite important since you cannot kill him at anytime, much like other canon character, yet I can't find anything on him besides this: http://www.realmshelps.net/npc/alorgoth.shtml The items in his possession and the fact that he has a totally devoted shadow dragon servant makes me feel like he is more than the average level 19 monk (from his creature file). Is he some favored of Shar or something?
So are bards really just a different kind of cleric? With their songs/poetry/dancing being prayers to Oghma, who in turn grants them spells?
Except for 1st edition AD&D (well, not sure about 4E... ), Bards explicitly use arcane magic. In 2nd edition, it's basically dabbling in wizard spells. In 3rd edition, they have their own arcane tradition that is different that how wizards cast spells (hence always having to sing/play/recite poetry to cast spells and being able to cast in light armor without penalty).
PS - The bard did appear for OD&D in TSR's "The Strategic Review" - a predecessor to Dragon magazine. It was the "jack-of-all-trades" combination of fighter-thief-magic user with lore and song abilities we are familiar with. The 2nd edition Bard appears to be based on this bard rather than Gygax's 1E AD&D triple-class fighter->thief->druid. (Although the OD&D bard does have some clear Celtic/Norse flair)
I got one for you guys. What do we know about Alorgoth besides what is depicted in Rasaad questline? He must be quite important since you cannot kill him at anytime, much like other canon character, yet I can't find anything on him besides this: http://www.realmshelps.net/npc/alorgoth.shtml The items in his possession and the fact that he has a totally devoted shadow dragon servant makes me feel like he is more than the average level 19 monk (from his creature file). Is he some favored of Shar or something?
Yes. He is Shar's most trusted mortal servant.
See page 250 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting for 3rd Edition (NOT the Campaign *Guide*).
I got one for you guys. What do we know about Alorgoth besides what is depicted in Rasaad questline? He must be quite important since you cannot kill him at anytime, much like other canon character, yet I can't find anything on him besides this: http://www.realmshelps.net/npc/alorgoth.shtml The items in his possession and the fact that he has a totally devoted shadow dragon servant makes me feel like he is more than the average level 19 monk (from his creature file). Is he some favored of Shar or something?
Yes. He's Shar's most trusted mortal servant.
See page 250 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting for 3rd Edition (NOT the Campaign *Guide*).
Also 3.5 ed. sourcebook Champions of Ruin states him as a leader of a Dark Moon sect.
I am somewhat ashamed to admit that I've actually read most of the books about Elminster. The books doesn't really give you a very satisfying explanation about his level of power though, a lot is up to the reader. I was made to understand that when the weave is whole and Mystra is alive, aka business as usual. Then Elminster doesn't really cast normal spells, he just bends the weave itself to do his bidding more often than not. He even admits that it was a long time ago he had to cast spells the normal way once in the books.
He always has access to divine fire from Mystra, and that is a very very powerful spell that seems to go through most if not all spell protections. Also heals the caster.
Sometimes Mystra grants him extra power, at least in the books, not a reliable source of power perhaps, but nonetheless.
All in all I would put him slightly above the rest of the contenders for the title "most powerful archmage" in the FR setting. He might not act like it though. Most of the others have more often than not lots of powerful underlings that makes them even more dangerous. Larloch and Tanthul are both mentioned in the books more than a few times, read for yourself what happens. The Srinshee is way more ancient than Elminster and complicated, I'll leave it at that. Szass Tam is no slouch either, and the ruler of a powerful nation as well, also imho a contender. Elminster seems to have a knack for making people dislike him, thus more often than not he is alone or part of a small group. Might be due to a low charisma score because of the very statheavy dualclasses he has, he is a fighter/thief/cleric/wizard after all.
As far as bards are concerned, I was under the impression that because they are Jack-of-all-Trades, they dabble in both arcane and divine magic. That even though they don't necessarily worship a particular deity, they have seen enough clerical magic to have sort of picked up how to do their most basic spells. Kind of like how a non-believer will pray to any god he thinks will hear him. Same goes for their arcane magic, fighting skills, and thieving skills. They aren't particularly specialized in anything, but can do a little bit of everything. Kind of like calling the handyman instead of the plumber or the electrician.
The bard's most useful asset rests in his ability to convince you that he is a very useful asset. That is done through his charisma, but also by showing off to each class the things that they aren't specifically good at.
A wizard might say, "Well, that guy doesn't really know that much about the arcane, but he's pretty good with a lockpick and a few heal spells."
Meanwhile, the thief is thinking, "Good with a lockpick! Are you crazy?? Well at least he got that ogre off my back...maybe we should keep him around."
Then the cleric says, "My good Elminster-wannabe, you are certainly right about the lockpicking, but his healing skills leave much to be desired. I am the man you should come to whenever you are in DIRE straights."
Then the dwarf fighter pipes up, "Well he ain't much for fightin'. But he did blast them guys with his magic missiles. I say we keep him around."
And the whole time the bard is just dreaming of his chance to one day be the new lead singer for Nirvana.
Also, I did not see you guys mention that bards are artists. They're dancers, actors, poets, jugglers, illusionists.... and pretty much like artists, they have different motivations for doing what they do. Not all bards can heal, not all bards are sneaky and not all bards fight. Some may have religious tendencies , thus developing a taste for divine magic , others may be warlike and develop spells that enhance moral and combat skills, while others may be skilled in deception and use illusions and charms.
If you think about the bard as if he were a strategist, then you're doing it the wrong way - a bard is much more likely to cast a fantastic color spray rather than blindness, for example.
Should the title be "Forgotten Realms Lore Questions"? Not D&D Lore Questions? It just sounded like all the questions are about Forgotten Realms and not D&D, since D&D lore differs a lot from Forgotten Realms.
@Zanso : I feel the title of the thread is accurate because with D&D 5th edition, the FR became the primary campaign setting, which means that very likely in the future any changes to either one will influence the other. As for the bard, I feel like some spells make little sense for a bard to have. As @DJKajuru pointed out, it is in the usually flamboyant nature of the bard itself to use certain spells rather than others. I really do not see bards as healers really, they should probably consider removing the "cure" spells from the bards' list altogether and add some "inspire toughness" or something like that to make up for those lost spells. I'm thinking rather than curing lost HPs, the bard's presence would actually inspire other PCs to clench their teeth and continue fighting through the pain (with no penalties at negative HPs, or something similar).
You're missing the role of Celtic bards and Norse skalds as historians, rather than just itinerant minstrels and entertainers. Bards and skalds were chroniclers of oral history. They composed epic poems not only to amuse an audience, but to create a living memory of their people. This is the reasoning for the "bardic lore" ability. There's really no logical reason for an itinerant juggler to have such lore abilities, but there is for a trained chronicler.
Also, I don't see why "a bard is much more likely to cast a fantastic color spray rather than blindness". Not every bard is going to be in the mold of a court jester or entertaining illusionist, i.e., uses primarily flashy spells. Some bards will be flashy, but others would have a more subdued take on their profession, i.e. preferring stirring oration to smokepowder antics. Celtic bards and Norse skalds would have great knowledge of history and warfare, which could make them keenly aware of good vs poor battle tactics.
As for the spells, both are useful, depending on the situation. It is true that color spray can affect more enemies, but it is a short-range spell. It would be useful for disabling a group of melee foes, but it does require the bard get up on the front lines to maximize effectiveness (which, under 2E rules, probably means not wearing armor unless the bard is so lucky as to own elven chain mail). Also, its range may not reach the enemies' back line. Blindness only affects a single enemy, but it has a longer range, so it is useful for disabling a major back-line threat, like an enemy mage.
@Zanso : I feel the title of the thread is accurate because with D&D 5th edition, the FR became the primary campaign setting, which means that very likely in the future any changes to either one will influence the other. As for the bard, I feel like some spells make little sense for a bard to have. As @DJKajuru pointed out, it is in the usually flamboyant nature of the bard itself to use certain spells rather than others. I really do not see bards as healers really, they should probably consider removing the "cure" spells from the bards' list altogether and add some "inspire toughness" or something like that to make up for those lost spells. I'm thinking rather than curing lost HPs, the bard's presence would actually inspire other PCs to clench their teeth and continue fighting through the pain (with no penalties at negative HPs, or something similar).
This is the reason why I feel that every race should have bards. From dwarves whose job it is to chant out ancient grudges (and sometimes tales of how vengeance was attained) to orcs whose purpose in life is to watch the battlefields to report on especially ferocious combatants. Having bards be relegated to just humans and half elves was a crime.
Comments
(You can read all about this in the History of the Chosen of Mystra book in-game)
@mashedtaters I know very little about his adventures or exploits, but I do know that Elminster (and Volo) was created by Ed Greenwood, who created the FR setting. This makes him kinda important.
Apart from that, he's also behind protecting Cormyr and many other realms more times that he could remember against the ever-reaching grasp of the Cult of the Dragon, the Shades, the Zhentarim and the Red Wizards. He trained some of the seven sisters in the Art (Laeral, Alustriel and the Symbul if I am not mistaken) and at one point he also had Vangerdahast as his apprehentice.
Hope this helps. I highly recommend reading Ed Greenwood's Elminster series to have a deeper insight on the Old Mage.
Elminster...he must be stopped!
As far as Mithral and adamantium, they are different from each other. Mithral is mined from deep within the ground, and is as hard as or harder than and lighter than steel. Adamantium is from fallen stars, and is roughly the same weight as steel, but much harder than Mithral. They have different properties. Mithral, in 3.5 pnp, reduces weight to 25% of the original without reducing AC. Adamantium provides damage reduction. I have no idea about 4e, because I couldnt stand it. I haven't played dnd next yet. I don't know whether one is more valuable as in useful than another, but adamantium is more rare and more expensive. They just have different applications. Elves and dwarves both like Mithral. adamantite golems are more powerful than Mithral golems in 3.5.
@Moradin
Thanks! That was very insightful.
Plus, a recent study published by Trust of Morandin and colleagues, reported in Flamerule's issue of the Journal of Pure and Applied Alchemy, shows that the placebo effect is higher in patients cured by bards' spells than patients treated by clerics.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Magic
So I guess you're right. It appears that in FR lore, healing and all other exclusively divine powers are innate powers of certain gods, or of the Force/Balance of Nature, independent of the Weave, and gifted only to the devout by those gods, or by the discipline of druids (who in some 3rd edition lore, are required to worship a Nature god to access the powers of Nature).
Still doesn't explain about bards and healing, unless maybe Oghma, the God of Bards, is doing that. Actually, that idea makes a lot of sense to me.
Game-lore wise, bardic magic is different that wizard magic. In 3e, all bard spells require a verbal component (i.e., playing, singing, reciting poetry), so the spells are different than those cast by a wizard (even if the effect is the same as a particular wizard spell). A wizard could learn bardic magic, but that would require learning a new way of casting spells (i.e. multi-classing as a bard).
A bard is not required to worship Oghma. Many of them worship Oghma's "right hand" and "left hand" associated deities, Deneir and Milil, but many worship other deities, or are even Faithless. My guess is that Oghma makes it possible for all bards to cast healing and a few other divine spells through bardic skill, regardless of whether they are direct worshipers, because the welfare of all bards is one of the main duties of his portfolio. I base that idea on 3rd edition lore, not 1st or 2nd, although, as @AstroBryGuy says, 1st edition put the divine element of the bard's skills into the D&D lore system with that strange requirement of druid levels for the original class, which was presented in the appendices of the 1st edition AD&D Player's Handbook as an optional "prestige class".
What do we know about Alorgoth besides what is depicted in Rasaad questline?
He must be quite important since you cannot kill him at anytime, much like other canon character, yet I can't find anything on him besides this:
http://www.realmshelps.net/npc/alorgoth.shtml
The items in his possession and the fact that he has a totally devoted shadow dragon servant makes me feel like he is more than the average level 19 monk (from his creature file).
Is he some favored of Shar or something?
PS - The bard did appear for OD&D in TSR's "The Strategic Review" - a predecessor to Dragon magazine. It was the "jack-of-all-trades" combination of fighter-thief-magic user with lore and song abilities we are familiar with. The 2nd edition Bard appears to be based on this bard rather than Gygax's 1E AD&D triple-class fighter->thief->druid. (Although the OD&D bard does have some clear Celtic/Norse flair)
http://annarchive.com/files/Strv201.pdf
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1513
See page 250 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting for 3rd Edition (NOT the Campaign *Guide*).
He always has access to divine fire from Mystra, and that is a very very powerful spell that seems to go through most if not all spell protections. Also heals the caster.
Sometimes Mystra grants him extra power, at least in the books, not a reliable source of power perhaps, but nonetheless.
All in all I would put him slightly above the rest of the contenders for the title "most powerful archmage" in the FR setting. He might not act like it though. Most of the others have more often than not lots of powerful underlings that makes them even more dangerous. Larloch and Tanthul are both mentioned in the books more than a few times, read for yourself what happens. The Srinshee is way more ancient than Elminster and complicated, I'll leave it at that. Szass Tam is no slouch either, and the ruler of a powerful nation as well, also imho a contender. Elminster seems to have a knack for making people dislike him, thus more often than not he is alone or part of a small group. Might be due to a low charisma score because of the very statheavy dualclasses he has, he is a fighter/thief/cleric/wizard after all.
The bard's most useful asset rests in his ability to convince you that he is a very useful asset. That is done through his charisma, but also by showing off to each class the things that they aren't specifically good at.
A wizard might say, "Well, that guy doesn't really know that much about the arcane, but he's pretty good with a lockpick and a few heal spells."
Meanwhile, the thief is thinking, "Good with a lockpick! Are you crazy?? Well at least he got that ogre off my back...maybe we should keep him around."
Then the cleric says, "My good Elminster-wannabe, you are certainly right about the lockpicking, but his healing skills leave much to be desired. I am the man you should come to whenever you are in DIRE straights."
Then the dwarf fighter pipes up, "Well he ain't much for fightin'. But he did blast them guys with his magic missiles. I say we keep him around."
And the whole time the bard is just dreaming of his chance to one day be the new lead singer for Nirvana.
If you think about the bard as if he were a strategist, then you're doing it the wrong way - a bard is much more likely to cast a fantastic color spray rather than blindness, for example.
As for the bard, I feel like some spells make little sense for a bard to have. As @DJKajuru pointed out, it is in the usually flamboyant nature of the bard itself to use certain spells rather than others. I really do not see bards as healers really, they should probably consider removing the "cure" spells from the bards' list altogether and add some "inspire toughness" or something like that to make up for those lost spells. I'm thinking rather than curing lost HPs, the bard's presence would actually inspire other PCs to clench their teeth and continue fighting through the pain (with no penalties at negative HPs, or something similar).
Also, I don't see why "a bard is much more likely to cast a fantastic color spray rather than blindness". Not every bard is going to be in the mold of a court jester or entertaining illusionist, i.e., uses primarily flashy spells. Some bards will be flashy, but others would have a more subdued take on their profession, i.e. preferring stirring oration to smokepowder antics. Celtic bards and Norse skalds would have great knowledge of history and warfare, which could make them keenly aware of good vs poor battle tactics.
As for the spells, both are useful, depending on the situation. It is true that color spray can affect more enemies, but it is a short-range spell. It would be useful for disabling a group of melee foes, but it does require the bard get up on the front lines to maximize effectiveness (which, under 2E rules, probably means not wearing armor unless the bard is so lucky as to own elven chain mail). Also, its range may not reach the enemies' back line. Blindness only affects a single enemy, but it has a longer range, so it is useful for disabling a major back-line threat, like an enemy mage.
EDIT: I misread the point of DJKajuru's post.