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Bringing Tieflings (adding other Planetouched Races later) to BG1/2 & IWD1 (WIP)

rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
edited April 2016 in General Modding
Note: This thread is mainly a planning and tracking thread.

I always really enjoyed Tieflings, and I always had fun with characters like Haer'Dalis or the mod-created thief Amber or characters like Neeshka (NWN2 rogue). I greatly enjoyed playing a Tiefling in NWN2, and I look forward to playing one in Sword Coast Legends. I also like to play Tieflings in P&P D&D games.

One thing I was always disappointed in, however, was that one cannot play a Tiefling in BG1/2 or IWD1/2. Of course, it makes sense that Tieflings would be rather rare in the Sword Coast. Also, iirc, Tieflings were not really available as a race until D&D3.5. That said, I think it actually could work to roleplay a tiefling in either of the sagas. A Tiefling Bhaalspawn is not too far-fetched (no more far-fetched than your character being a Bhaalspawn in the 1st place). If we assume that your dead mother was a warlock or sorceress of some kind, it makes it even more possible in my mind.
It's a little more hazy bringing a Tiefling into the frozen north, but it could be done with proper care towards roleplay. Maybe a tiefling would be fleeing from Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate or Westgate. If we assume such, a Tiefling might come to Ten Towns after hearing the call for mercenaries.

I would also like to add other Planetouched races, such as Aasimar, Air Genasi, Earth Genasi, Fire Genasi, and Water Genasi.


Here's the races I will be adding. All ability adjustments and bonuses are based on the 2E rules and balanced for BGEE. Thanks to Kamigoroshi and subtledoctor for helping with descriptions.

* Tieflings:
  • +1 INT, +1 CHR, -1 STR, -1 WIS; +1 CON, -1DEX*
  • Infravision
  • 10% Resistance to cold, electricity, and fire
  • +2 to saves vs. Death/Poison and Wands
  • +2 Melee weapon damage Bonus**
  • Thief skill adjustments:
    PP	OL	FT	 MS     HS      DI   ST
    		+5% 	 +10%  +10%         +5%
    
*Because the game treats Tieflings as renamed Elves, and Elves have +1DEX/-1CON, adjustments are made to bring them back to the human baseline before adjusting their other stats.
**This is meant to help out Tiefling fighters. Because Tiefling fighters will never have greater than 17 Strength (this is Canon in the Planeswalker Handbook), a +2 to melee weapon damage will help them out.


* Aasimar
  • +1 STR, -2 CON, +1 WIS
  • Infravision
  • +2 saves vs. spells
  • 10% magic resistance
  • Thief skill adjustments:
    PP	OL	FT	 MS     HS      DI   ST
    	       +10%	+5%	+10%	     +5%
    

* Air Genasi
List coming soon

* Earth Genasi
List coming soon

* Fire Genasi
List coming soon

* Water Genasi
List coming soon

This mod will be expanded to SoD, BG2EE, & IWDEE later.



Y'all have any thoughts or suggestions?
Post edited by rapsam2003 on
ButtercheeseillathidSwifty_Magee
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Comments

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    lomion.de/cmm/tiefling.php
    Here is the AD&D second edition entry of the Tiefling race. They have been around since 1994. ;)
    illathidrapsam2003
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2016
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
    Kamigoroshiillathidrapsam2003
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Also, Icewind Dale II already has Tieflings as a playable human subrace. The same goes for Aasimar as well.
    DreadKhan
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited March 2016
    lomion.de/cmm/tiefling.php
    Here is the AD&D second edition entry of the Tiefling race. They have been around since 1994. ;)
    Thank you. I actually could never find this when downloading the old AD&D2 PHB stuff.

    Also, Icewind Dale II already has Tieflings as a playable human subrace. The same goes for Aasimar as well.
    True, but we don't really have them in the other games.
    Why not go to the source? Tieflings were canon in 2E as well (in the Planescape setting, at least).
    Tiefling characters gain a +1 bonus on Intelligence and Charisma scores, but suffer a -1 penalty to Strength and Wisdom. Tieflings can be of any alignment save lawful good. They also gain a number of special abilities, based on their mysterious heritage: They possess infravision to a range of 60 feet and have the ability to create darkness, 15-foot radius once per day. Tieflings suffer only half damage from cold-based attacks, and they gain a +2 bonus to all saving throws vs. fire, electricity, or poison.

    Tieflings can be fighters, rangers, wizards (including specialist mages), priests, thieves, or bards. They may also pursue multiclass options, including fighter/ wizard, fighter/priest, fighter/thief, wizard/thief, and priest/thief.

    Tiefling thieves make the following racial adjustments to their thief abilities:
    PP  OL  F/RT   MS   HS   DT  CW  RL
            +5%   +10% +10%         +5%
    
    For BG, I would make this something like:
    ... +1 INT
    ... +1 CHA
    ... -1 STR
    ... -1 WIS
    ... 50% cold resistance
    ... +2 to saves vs. Death/Poison and Wands
    This stuff is great. Thanks!
  • Abdel_AdrianAbdel_Adrian Member Posts: 430
    I made a tiefling kit that was based in part on the 2e book and part Haerdalis, just like when I made a drow that's part based on the handbook and part Viconia. Sometimes PnP rules aren't balanced for the game, or not easy to mod, but this is totally doable. Good luck.
  • IchigoRXCIchigoRXC Member Posts: 1,001
    Also, Icewind Dale II already has Tieflings as a playable human subrace. The same goes for Aasimar as well.

    Yeah but IWD2 was based on third edition wasn't it?
    Kamigoroshi
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited March 2016
    So far, I have done the following: edited the ABRACEAD.2da, ABRACEQ.2da, added several K_*_*.2da files for kits; added all the K_*_* values to KITTABLE.2da; edited RACE.ids, RACECOLOR.2da*, RACETHAC.2da, and racetext.2da. Making progress.

    *Using the same colors as human; does that matter?



    It won't be too long before I package this up as a WeiDU install. :)
    IchigoRXC wrote: »
    Also, Icewind Dale II already has Tieflings as a playable human subrace. The same goes for Aasimar as well.

    Yeah but IWD2 was based on third edition wasn't it?
    I believe it was. Also, it's interesting because IWDEE is kind of a "v2.3-ish", because they gave you the options to use some things from 3.0.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    rapsam2003 wrote: »
    *Using the same colors as human; does that matter?
    Not anymore. Thanks to BG:EE's and BG2:EE's upcoming patch tomorrow. :)
    Tresset wrote: »
    ALL the colors! Selectable IN GAME!!! :mrgreen::heart:
    31719dc9d7b1b8e1e2581ed159e04e.jpg

    IWD:EE will receive such fanciness as well. But probably at a later date.
    rapsam2003
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited March 2016
    rapsam2003 wrote: »
    *Using the same colors as human; does that matter?
    Not anymore. Thanks to BG:EE's and BG2:EE's upcoming patch tomorrow. :)
    Tresset wrote: »
    ALL the colors! Selectable IN GAME!!! :mrgreen::heart:
    [/img][snip][/img]

    IWD:EE will receive such fanciness as well. But probably at a later date.
    TIME TO CELEBRATE!

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,416
    Cool idea. Any chance you could include other semicommon races like aasimar, drow and duergar?
  • Sids1188Sids1188 Member Posts: 165
    rapsam2003 wrote: »
    Tiefling characters gain a +1 bonus on Intelligence and Charisma scores, but suffer a -1 penalty to Strength and Wisdom.
    rapsam2003 wrote: »
    Ability adjustments and bonuses, based on the 2E rules and accounting for balance in BGEE:
    • +1 INT
    • +1 CHA
    • -1 STR
    • + 1 WIS
    • 50% cold resistance
    • +2 to saves vs. Death/Poison and Wands
    Presumably, you meant -1 Wis
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    edited March 2016
    I would enjoy a selection of more races and especially subraces in EE in general.
    Also, more hybrids than just half-elves and half-orcs (maybe make a mix and match thing where you just select "Hybrid" as race and then pick two of the standard races). Aasimar and Genasi, too.
    Though I guess making a mod like that would be a lot of work :X

    Not to mention that the NPC companions would have to be redone as well (i.e Xan > moon elf, Alora > lightfoot halfling, Yeslik > shield dwarf, etc.)

    *Sigh*
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2016
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    illathidrapsam2003
  • Abdel_AdrianAbdel_Adrian Member Posts: 430
    I basically tried what you're talking about @subtledoctor , but the day/night and indoors/outdoors tricked me a bit - I settled for an effect that worked based on time of day.
    The other issue was balance with Viconia and Haer'dalis. MR changing above vs below ground is pnp, but not what Viconia does so even if I could do it, I'd feel like I had to change her too.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Abdel_Adrian
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited March 2016

    I would enjoy a selection of more races and especially subraces in EE in general.

    Well, if I can get this to work, I may add other 2E races from the PlaneswalkerHandbook that make sense. For example, I could see Aasimar. Githyanki/Githzerai are iffy, but could…maybe work. Gensai are also ify, but less iffy than Gith races.

    See here for the PlaneswalkerHandbook for 2E: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kzyqo06h4jryzun/PlanewalkersHandbook_2E.pdf?dl=0

    There's no way in hell I'm adding Bariaur or Rogue Modrons (both are listed in the PlaneswalkerHandook). Adventures set in the Sword Coast region have no reason to have those as race choices.

    Also, more hybrids than just half-elves and half-orcs (maybe make a mix and match thing where you just select "Hybrid" as race and then pick two of the standard races). Aasimar and Genasi, too.

    Though I guess making a mod like that would be a lot of work :X

    No, it’s more that…there aren’t really any PLAYER races in the PlayerHandbook that are hybrids besides Half-Elf and Half-Orc. There are hybrids in the monster manual. Example: Ogrillions, iirc, are half-ogres. But why would a player play an Ogrillion? None of the armor would work. Most weapons would be like sticks for such a character. An Ogrillion would walk into town (unless we’re talking the ONE exception: Sigil, City of Doors), and everyone would either flee or try to rally the guard. In terms of “making sense”, a lot of hybrids are just not going to work.
    See the PlayersHandbook for 2E here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v034u7t8c7dn3s7/PlayersHandbook_2E.PDF?dl=0
    Warning: The cover of the 2E PHB is NSFW.

    As I said before, I may add Aasimar, Githyanki/Githzerai (undecided on these 2), and Gensai.

    Not to mention that the NPC companions would have to be redone as well (i.e Xan > moon elf, Alora > lightfoot halfling, Yeslik > shield dwarf, etc.)

    According to 2E rules, a Moon Elf is acknowledged as a specific kind of elf. Elven subraces were NOT a thing in 2E. Even Drow were just “elves”. All elves, regardless of subrace, got the same stat adjustments, racials, etc. It was up to *the player* to roleplay their character in such a way that your elf was a Moon Elf or Drow or Wood Elf, etc. -- and the caveat to that was whether the DM even let you choose to be anything besides a "High Elf", which was considered the most common type of elf in 2E.

    Similarly, Dwarves were just "Dwarves". There wasn't "Gold Dwarf" or "Shield Dwarf" or "Duergar" (dark dwarf).

    Does the new update allow adding more races? I believe this was always one of the most stubbornly hard-coded parts of the game and we are not likely to see it changed. But, I've been wrong before.

    If it does become possible to add races with a relatively simple Weidu installation method, you can bet your bottom dollar mods will start springing from the woodwork.

    If it *is* now possible, and someone *does* start working on this kind of thing, I humbly request they do it in a *reasonable* and 2E-friendly way.

    Technically, it *is* now possible, BUT there are some caveats. I’m working through the issues for those now. The biggest issue I’m working through (and I’m unsure if I can overcome this, because it may be hardcoded) is allowing the player to select these races on the character selection screen. I really, really would hate to tell folks, “Use EEKeeper and change your race to Tiefling”. But we’ll see what happens.


    - Tielflings are not half-fiend. They are "plane-touched," with some minute, unmeasurable amount of fiendish ancestry in their distant past. They get 50% resistance to cold damage, which is probably the least-used damage type in the game. IMO this should be about the strongest bonus for any subrace. For resistances to more common damage types, it should probably be 25% or lower.

    Yes, half-fiends are another thing, folks. Curious folks see:
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Half-fiend
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cambion
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alu-fiend

    Several other races have planetouched hybrids too.
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Fey'ri
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Draegloth
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tanarukk
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Maeluth
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wispling

    Technically, the PlaneswalkerHandbook says tieflings can have multiple bonuses or disadvantages or even multiple “demonic features”. However, I have decided (mostly due to simplicity) that just giving tieflings 50% cold resistance is what’s happening. Even doing this is a pain.
    Basically, I'm just adding a permanent spell "behind the scenes" for all Tieflings that gives the bonus. It's similar to how equipping a helmet protects the character from critical hits, except obviously you'll never lose the bonus. But there's several thing that I'm doing to link the hidden spell to each class (because spells aren't really linkable to race in the EE engine, as far I know).


    - So, similarly, I'd like to see genasi presented not as some kind of crazy half-elemental ridiculousness who get healed by fire, but as basically humans who have slightly different characteristics pointing to their lineage.
    The vanilla races are a great example of how far you need to go to distinguish them.

    If I can add tieflings in the way that I want, then I will add gensai presented as they are in the PlaneswalkerHandbook. The handbook never presented them as some kind of crazy half-elementals. They’re just another race of half-humans with lineage characeristics.


    And for heaven's sake I would love to see someone code Drow correctly. The EE engine now supports all kinds of cool stuff, like checking for day/night and indoors/outdoors. Drow should have:
    - a permanent effect that gives penalties for poor vision firing the daytime
    - NO magic resistance on the surface
    - set a local variable at the start of the game
    - append a script; the underdark area script that checks for the local variable and adds MR/eliminates the light blindness penalty
    - figure the MR lasts for a while after exiting the underdark, so you get to keep it through the first Irenicus fight. (Cool end-game bonus!) Then add a script to the transition to hell that removes the MR. (Added challenge for the climactic battle!)

    I can kind of get behind this in a general way. However…
    • As I mentioned, elven subraces weren’t a thing in 2E. I could still see Drow as being implemented as a "subrace" though.
    • the poor vision thing was generally presented as -1 to hit in most versions of D&D, iirc (which translates to adding +1 THACO in 2E, I think)
    • Why would Drow be any different than other elves in terms of magic resistance?
      See the 2E player’s handbook. I could see them having “reduced” magic resistance on the surface, but…that sounds like a pain. Also, considering how “stock” Elves currently are, it kind of doesn’t make sense to me.


    tl;dr Racial lineage should be more about flavor than powergaming. Your class/kit, and your accomplishments, and your loot, should be about powergaming.

    Agreed!

    I basically tried what you're talking about @subtledoctor , but the day/night and indoors/outdoors tricked me a bit - I settled for an effect that worked based on time of day.

    This seems sensible to me. How did you handle dungeons then? In a dark dungeon, it doesn’t matter if it’s high noon or midnight; everyone still needs torches or darkvision (“infravision” in 2E).

    Sidenote: Is your mod available somewhere? I’d really like to use it.
    Post edited by rapsam2003 on
    Buttercheese
  • Abdel_AdrianAbdel_Adrian Member Posts: 430

    MR changing above vs below ground is pnp, but not what Viconia does so even if I could do it, I'd feel like I had to change her too.

    Yes - and she *should* be changed. It's s mod after all. If people want "more and more realistic subraces" they can play with a somewhat nerfed version of Viconia. Like I say, it'll make for cooler mid-/end-game gameplay.

    Or offer alternative subcomponents: "hardcore PnP drow" and "unrestricted MR drow." I can help you with the Weidu for the subcomponents.
    I'd love any help you could offer. I think I get subcomponents, I used them in Eldritch Magic, it's mostly checking for AR code for Underdark and day/night I don't understand - short of time of day which functions indoors regardless of brightness. I just released my drow and tiefling kits (better late than never), but I wouldn't mind getting a little closer to pnp.

    It probably won't work with SoD, but my kits can be found here:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/49591/mod-eldritch-magic-bgee-bg2ee-iwdee#latest
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited March 2016
    It seems like a lot of mods won't initially work for sod. That said, it doesn't seem to be too bad of a fix. I think the .tpa files just need to be changed.

    So, you created the Drow race as part of Viconia's "kit"? Interesting.
  • Abdel_AdrianAbdel_Adrian Member Posts: 430

    It seems like a lot of mods won't initially work for sod. That said, it doesn't seem to be too bad of a fix. I think the .tpa files just need to be changed.

    So, you created the Drow race as part of Viconia's "kit"? Interesting.

    Yeah it shouldn't be long before we have a fix for SoD mods. I created an elf-only kit that "converts" you into a drow the same way Viconia is considered one, but it really has nothing to do with her.
    It's actually a Priestess of Lolth kit, and Vicky worships Shar, but I mention her bc she's the only drow character, but she defies PnP, so rather than change her, I simply modeled mine a little after her. PnP drow have all sorts of abilities in Underdark and penalties both above ground and in bright light anywhere, so it's a bit more complicated than changing sex, skin color, and magic resistance - which is mostly what I did.
    rapsam2003
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    Slightly off-topic, but that site with the Teiflings had this I found amusing: http://www.lomion.de/cmm/hamsgisp.php


    Also I remember from my Core Rules 2nd Edition DM cd, that Half-Ogres were a playable race alongside Half-Orcs. Granted they were a bit limited, but I imagine BG2 would be more fair, plus, ya know, Shaman class.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Dazzu said:

    Also I remember from my Core Rules 2nd Edition DM cd, that Half-Ogres were a playable race alongside Half-Orcs. Granted they were a bit limited, but I imagine BG2 would be more fair, plus, ya know, Shaman class.

    Well, the question still remains...are half-ogres even sensible? I argue no. As such, someone else can feel free to create a mod for half-ogres.

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    Half-Ogres Less sensible than a plane touched/semi-demonic child being given access to a peaceful library filled with monks or a race of the most hated elves ever? I dunno...
  • Abdel_AdrianAbdel_Adrian Member Posts: 430
    "Half-Ogres as NPCs or PCs
    Half-ogres may be NPCs or even PCs, with DM's consent. If so, they have statistics determined in the
    following fashion. Strength is ld6 +13, with a roll of 6 being treated as 18(00) strength. Characters with a
    Strength roll of 5 (18 strength) should roll normally for extraordinary strength. Dexterity is 3d4.
    Constitution is ld6 +13, with a roll of 6 being treated as an 18. Intelligence is 3d4. Wisdom is 2d6.
    Charisma is 2d4, doubled for effective Charisma with respect to ogres, half-ogres, orcs, orogs, and other
    humanoids. Half-ogres reared outside of the tribes do not gain the languages mentioned earlier. Player
    character half-ogres may not be exclusively priests, but may practice any other class allowed half-ogres.
    Starting Hit Dice are doubled at 1st level, progressing normally at 2nd level and above.
    As NPCs, shaman half-ogres are fighter/priests. Also possible are half-ogres that function solely as
    priests, rising to 8th level, and rarely seen fighter/thieves (3+9 Hit Dice with the skills of 1st- or 2ndlevel
    thieves). Half-ogre thieves are always self-taught, and accept the following racial adjustments: Pick
    Pockets -20%, Open Locks +5%, Find/Remove Traps +0%, Move Silently -5%, Hide in Shadows +5%,
    Detect Noise +0%, Climb Walls -30%, Read Languages -25%."
    http://orkerhulen.dk/DnD 5th/TSR 2140B Monstrous Manual.pdf
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited March 2016
    Ok, I was wrong. In any case, this mod is about tieflings and may be expanded to include other extraplanar races. Half-ogres aren't in the bill. /shrug

    Sidenote: Also, that wasn't in the PlayerHandbook, but rather a monster manual. In essence, Half-ogre PCs aren't considered canon, whereas Tieflings are considered cannon in the PlanescapeHandbook.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    rapsam2003
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,416

    See the PlayersHandbook for 2E here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v034u7t8c7dn3s7/PlayersHandbook_2E.PDF?dl=0
    Warning: The cover of the 2E PHB is NSFW.

    That is not the cover that I remember! :p

    Anyhow, I've dusted off my monster manual, and browsing through it, I can find various subraces for both elf and dwarf. Of course, it begs the question if there is really a need between, say, a hill dwarf and a mountain dwarf. Also note that the core books aren't set in Faerun, so technically you'd have to look in the Campaign setting, but I'm not sure those campaign settings actually had any stats, or if they just gave some descriptions. Even in 3rd edition, it's pretty tricky to find the right stats for Faerun races.

    Anyhow, I'd go with races that makes sense and are possible to implement. Something to keep in mind is that you're probably not planning to create new graphics for the races. Aasimar and Tieflings could look like humans with different colors, Drow and Duergar could look like dwarves and elves with different colors, Orcs could look like half-orcs. Genasi could look like humans or elves or perhaps a different race for each element (Dwarf-Earth, Human-Water, Elf-Air, Halfling-Fire?), again with different skin colors.

    Races like Drider and Aquatic Elf are obviously out. Half-Ogre... I guess you could use human or half-orc looks for them. They would obviously still be able to wear humansized gear. In most of the newer editions, half-ogres are large, though, which provides all kinds of benefits and disadvantages that are impossible to implement.

    So for any new races, you'd have to wonder "Does this actually need to be a new race, or is it so close to the original race, that it's basically the same thing?"

    You're already implementing Tieflings.
    Aasimar would be the next logical step as they are the counter to Tieflings.
    Genasi could be interesting, get the whole planetouched set complete.
    Drow sorta make sense, considering there's already 2 drow in the game.
    If you implement Drow, then Duergar are closely tied.
    Since Half-Orcs are already in, implementing Orcs should be pretty easy as well.

    I see no logical other race to consider, and you may consider some of those races rather pointless to implement.

    Anyhow, you mentioned that the biggest obstacle is the ability to choose the race during character creation. 2.0 should allow more UI customization than before, so who knows.

    I guess checking to see if you can implement the Tiefling properly, and allowing players to pick it during character creation is the most logical to focus on. Once one race is implemented properly, other races should be relatively easy (except of course for special features such as light blindness).
  • Abdel_AdrianAbdel_Adrian Member Posts: 430

    Ok, I was wrong. In any case, this mod is about tieflings and may be expanded to include other extraplanar races. Half-ogres aren't in the bill. /shrug

    Sidenote: Also, that wasn't in the PlayerHandbook, but rather a monster manual. In essence, Half-ogre PCs aren't considered canon, whereas Tieflings are considered cannon in the PlanescapeHandbook.

    I don't know how you can consider Planescape canon but not a Monster Manual. Don't get me wrong, I love Planescape - that's why I made an Abyssal Warrior kit that forces you to be a tiefling, but the "canon" books are typically the DMG, PHB, and the Monster Manual. I wouldn't really consider the Planescape book *more* canon than any of those 3, and those 3 core books don't allow for tiefling PCs but do mention both drow and half-ogre. I only argue that completely moot point because virtually of these races are still impossible to implement, drow and tiefling are the best candidates though because of current NPCs.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited March 2016
    Thels said:

    See the PlayersHandbook for 2E here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/v034u7t8c7dn3s7/PlayersHandbook_2E.PDF?dl=0
    Warning: The cover of the 2E PHB is NSFW.

    That is not the cover that I remember! :p
    IT’S THE COVER I WAS GIVEN… :'(
    (I don't know. That handbook is actually a compilation of several D&D2E handbooks. I'm only using the PHB as source material for this mod.)
    Thels said:

    Anyhow, I've dusted off my monster manual, and browsing through it, I can find various subraces for both elf and dwarf. Also note that the core books aren't set in Faerun, so technically you'd have to look in the Campaign setting, but I'm not sure those campaign settings actually had any stats, or if they just gave some descriptions. Even in 3rd edition, it's pretty tricky to find the right stats for Faerun races.

    Yeah, but the monster manual is not the same as the player handbook. The player handbook intends that, without DM approval, you play an elf as a “High Elf” in D&D2E. And all elves have the same stats. If someone wants to have mods with subraces like moon elf or whatnot, then there are mods for that. No idea if they work, but they do exist.
    Iirc, the 2E PHB had the Forgotten Realms as the setting. The Sword Coast (part of Faerun) is included within the planet Abeir-Toril. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms#Advanced_Dungeons_.26_Dragons_2nd_edition
    Thels said:

    Anyhow, I'd go with races that makes sense and are possible to implement. Something to keep in mind is that you're probably not planning to create new graphics for the races. Aasimar and Tieflings could look like humans with different colors, Drow and Duergar could look like dwarves and elves with different colors, Orcs could look like half-orcs. Genasi could look like humans or elves or perhaps a different race for each element (Dwarf-Earth, Human-Water, Elf-Air, Halfling-Fire?), again with different skin colors.

    Yup, planned to do it this way.
    Thels said:

    Races like Drider and Aquatic Elf are obviously out.

    Bingo.
    Thels said:

    Half-Ogre... I guess you could use human or half-orc looks for them.

    Not adding them.
    Thels said:

    So for any new races, you'd have to wonder "Does this actually need to be a new race, or is it so close to the original race, that it's basically the same thing?"

    I would argue that one also needs to consider whether such a race is so rare that it would make no sense. For instance, the Fey’ri are so rare that ForgottenRealmsWiki mentions how they were basically hunted down to extinction.
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Fey'ri
    Thels said:


    You're already implementing Tieflings.
    Aasimar would be the next logical step as they are the counter to Tieflings.
    Genasi could be interesting, get the whole planetouched set complete.
    Drow sorta make sense, considering there's already 2 drow in the game.
    If you implement Drow, then Duergar are closely tied.
    Since Half-Orcs are already in, implementing Orcs should be pretty easy as well.

    Races like tieflings and Aasimar are mentioned as having populations in several lands at the same site, being especially common in Mulhorand and Unther:
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tieflings#Homelands
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aasimar#Homelands

    Genasi were also mentioned as having populations in a few lands, specifically Calimshan and the continent of Zakhara. Hell, the below URL even mentions how when the Spellplague occurred (in 4E), that the populations of Genasi were so numerous in Calimshan that a civil war between them turn Calimshan into a wartorn waste. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Genasi#Homelands

    Not doing Duergar or Orcs.

    I may decide, at some point to implement the idea of changing the text for Drow on the character sheet. In other words, the stats would all be the same, but Viconia’s character sheet would show “Drow” in place of “Elf”. Similarly, Xan’s character sheet might be edited; undecided on that, since it’s not mentioned as huge thing. By contrast, Viconia’s race IS mentioned as a huge thing.
    Thels said:

    Anyhow, you mentioned that the biggest obstacle is the ability to choose the race during character creation. 2.0 should allow more UI customization than before, so who knows?

    Who knows, like you say…
    If I cannot add them to player cc, then there is a way to make it work. Apparently, back in 2013, someone created a “subrace mod” for BGEE. The way they got around the fact that you could not add new races to the selection screen was that they created an NPC who “explored your origins” in Candlekeep. I have not examined their code yet. But I would assume that their mod just made it such that if you selected to be a kind of “subrace”, the origins NPC’s dialogue fired off a script that changed everything for that subrace. So, choosing a tiefling did the following:


    Tiefling - Infernal
    Bonuses:
    15% Cold Resistance
    15% Electricity Resistance
    15% Fire Resistance
    10% Hide in Shadow
    Infravision
    1/day May cast "Blindness" (70% chance to blind target)
    (Change skin color to Brown)

    Penalties:
    -1 Reputation
    -10% XP



    I don’t like this implementation, as it’s kind of overpowered and not canon, imho. Plus, tieflings could actually have any skin color. Tieflings were varied in appearance and mannerism, in the same way that humans are.
    Thels said:

    I guess checking to see if you can implement the Tiefling properly, and allowing players to pick it during character creation is the most logical to focus on. Once one race is implemented properly, other races should be relatively easy (except of course for special features such as light blindness).

    Since you seem kind of knowledgeable on this, any thoughts on tieflings? As I said in the OP, looking for suggestions.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited March 2016

    Ok, I was wrong. In any case, this mod is about tieflings and may be expanded to include other extraplanar races. Half-ogres aren't in the bill. /shrug

    Sidenote: Also, that wasn't in the PlayerHandbook, but rather a monster manual. In essence, Half-ogre PCs aren't considered canon, whereas Tieflings are considered cannon in the PlanescapeHandbook.

    I don't know how you can consider Planescape canon but not a Monster Manual. Don't get me wrong, I love Planescape - that's why I made an Abyssal Warrior kit that forces you to be a tiefling, but the "canon" books are typically the DMG, PHB, and the Monster Manual. I wouldn't really consider the Planescape book *more* canon than any of those 3, and those 3 core books don't allow for tiefling PCs but do mention both drow and half-ogre. I only argue that completely moot point because virtually of these races are still impossible to implement, drow and tiefling are the best candidates though because of current NPCs.
    I bolded the important part in my original statement. The monster manuals are certainly canon. But Half-Ogre PLAYER CHARACTERS are not, which is why you need DM approval to play as a Half-Ogre. (If you want a setting where Half-Ogres are canon, may I introduce you to Arcanum?... :smiley: ) Also, it is mentioned in the PHB that you can play as an elven subrace (including Dark Elf, aka "Drow") with DM approval. It seems to me that playing as a Dark Elf is generally more intended than playing as a Half-Ogre, since the PHB mentions them as well as them being mentioned in the MM.

    I can justify the idea of tieflings based on what's known about the Forgotten Realms:

    Races like tieflings and Aasimar are mentioned as having populations in several lands at the same site, being especially common in Mulhorand and Unther:
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tieflings#Homelands
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aasimar#Homelands

    Furthermore:

    Yeah, but the monster manual is not the same as the player handbook. The player handbook intends that, without DM approval, you play an elf as a “High Elf” in D&D2E. And all elves have the same stats. If someone wants to have mods with subraces like moon elf or whatnot, then there are mods for that. No idea if they work, but they do exist.

    This idea also applies to Half-Ogres. Without DM approval, you CANNOT be a Half-Ogre in D&D2E. I see no reason to make Half-Ogres available as a player character race choice.
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,416

    I may decide, at some point to implement the idea of changing the text for Drow on the character sheet. In other words, the stats would all be the same, but Viconia’s character sheet would show “Drow” in place of “Elf”. Similarly, Xan’s character sheet might be edited; undecided on that, since it’s not mentioned as huge thing. By contrast, Viconia’s race IS mentioned as a huge thing.

    Since you seem kind of knowledgeable on this, any thoughts on tieflings? As I said in the OP, looking for suggestions.

    With the 2nd elf, I actually meant Baeloth. The Elves are called Elves, not High Elves, so there's really no need to give Xan it's own subrace. Drow are the odd ones out, as they hate the other elves, a mostly mutual feeling.

    As for knowledgeable, I haven't really ever tried modding BG, so really can't help you there.

    Unless you mean background knowledge... I've switched to 3rd the moment it came out, and honestly, looking through the 2nd edition books, there's really little information as to what stats these races have. It's really a lot of "You should play one of the 6 base races. If you want to play a different race, you need your DMs approval, as well as ask your DM what racial abilities to use."

    I'd probably use the 3rd edition rules as a base for ideas (BG uses plenty of 3rd edition stuff already):

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm

    That said, I have no idea what is and is not possible. Stuff like ability score modifiers should be easy, IF you can add them to the UI, but if you need a workaround, like talking to an NPC, it could mean that the racial modifiers would make you no longer meet the requirements of your current race. Then what?
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