If the character was poorly written but cisgender, there wouldn't be nearly this kind of response, because it's not the writing quality that prompted it.
Precisely this. Is anyone complaining about all the cardboard-thin cis characters in the game? No. Therefore, it is not the writing quality that has worked bigots up.
No, I most certainly don't mean normal, because that implies trans people are abnormal, which is a line of thought that has intensified hatred toward them.
So, this has pretty much devolved into it has been from the start of the whole GG controversy... Extremists shouting at each other, and people who are trying to stay moderate and discuss the issues brought up (and attempt to find solutions) are lumped in with the extremists on both sides and dismissed as part of the opposing group... *sigh* very well, carry on...
The trans character is just poorly done and reeks of agenda due to how poorly she's written. Plenty of people dislike it for this reason, trans included.
Some people might just dislike her for being trans, yes, but from what I've seen, a good portion that don't like it and other writing is how it's actually written rather than the actual identities of the characters.
Breaking it down into simple bigotry is wrong, as for many, it's not that.
Except it is pure bigotry. Would the internet make such a shitfest if his answer to question about his name was: "I was born together with my twin sister. We did everything together. One day when we were 12 she drowned in a lake and I could not save her. My life became living hell after that and I wanted to kill myself more than once. But one day my parents made me see that life goes on and that we must continue living and fighting and that my sister would want that. We agreed I should honor her and the connection we had by changing my name. I made this name as combination of different languages so I can always remember her and feel that she is part of me."
Tell me truthfully, would there be such a shitfest? I bet people would even quote that and say what a touching story (well not this exactly because I am a shit writer )
Let me quote myself and say: I see people ignore this post of mine. Probably because they would need to lie to counter it. But also ignoring it means I am right.
He is right of course. But I'm afraid he is going to lose a lot of impact, because he is arguing under a false pretense of what the argument is.
No, he's not. You're shifting the goalpost, as I pointed out above. People started saying this after things really escalated but the majority of complaints I've seen have been about the inclusion of a transgender character in the game.
If the character was poorly written but cisgender, there wouldn't be nearly this kind of response, because it's not the writing quality that prompted it.
And if the character was properly included and was transgender, there wouldn't need to be this kind of response either. Thus the issue has always been "There is a transgender character that is poorly written." Not "There is a transgender." OR "There is a character that is poorly written."
And you are misusing "shifting the goal posts", it implies that when confronted on your initial argument, and find it wanting, you lessen the requirements on it to try and make it still valid, without changing the meaning of it.
But, I jumped onto the forums just before the first posts went up about this character. There was never once a comment of "Transgender people shouldn't be in the game." It was, from the start, the use of the character as being "cringe-worthy" (their words, not mine), and poorly handled. The second complaint that came up was the lack the options for handling it, where they wanted to know "If this person wants to be female, why can't we just go and get them the Sex-Change Girdle".
The argument has expanded since to cover Minsc, Jaheira, the Archer, Safana, etc. But the points on the transgender cleric have always remained the same.
There have been more posts than I can count that directly antagonize the LGBTQ community and argue that a trans character should *not exist* in the Forgotten Realms. Claiming this is about bad writing is using "shifting goalposts."
So, this has pretty much devolved into it has been from the start of the whole GG controversy... Extremists shouting at each other, and people who are trying to stay moderate and discuss the issues brought up (and attempt to find solutions) are lumped in with the extremists on both sides and dismissed as part of the opposing group... *sigh* very well, carry on...
This might be Beamdog's forum. The place that witnessed many constructive discussions, that, more often than not, were carried on in civil manner. But unfortunately, this is internet we are talking about. And many internauts haven't matured enough yet for topics like these. For now, they are children who argue against each other and blow things out of proportion.
He is right of course. But I'm afraid he is going to lose a lot of impact, because he is arguing under a false pretense of what the argument is.
No, he's not. You're shifting the goalpost, as I pointed out above. People started saying this after things really escalated but the majority of complaints I've seen have been about the inclusion of a transgender character in the game.
If the character was poorly written but cisgender, there wouldn't be nearly this kind of response, because it's not the writing quality that prompted it.
And if the character was properly included and was transgender, there wouldn't need to be this kind of response either. Thus the issue has always been "There is a transgender character that is poorly written." Not "There is a transgender." OR "There is a character that is poorly written."
And you are misusing "shifting the goal posts", it implies that when confronted on your initial argument, and find it wanting, you lessen the requirements on it to try and make it still valid, without changing the meaning of it.
But, I jumped onto the forums just before the first posts went up about this character. There was never once a comment of "Transgender people shouldn't be in the game." It was, from the start, the use of the character as being "cringe-worthy" (their words, not mine), and poorly handled. The second complaint that came up was the lack the options for handling it, where they wanted to know "If this person wants to be female, why can't we just go and get them the Sex-Change Girdle".
The argument has expanded since to cover Minsc, Jaheira, the Archer, Safana, etc. But the points on the transgender cleric have always remained the same.
There have been more posts than I can count that directly antagonize the LGBTQ community and argue that a trans character should *not exist* in the Forgotten Realms. Claiming this is about bad writing is using "shifting goalposts."
Hey friends. I noticed some discussion about this previously and would like to inform some of you that "cis" is a perfectly valid term. It comes from the Latin derived prefix cis which means "on this side of", and is the antonym of trans meaning "across from" or "on the other side of". It is used in the cis–trans distinction in chemistry, the cis–trans or complementation test in genetics and in the ancient Roman term Cisalpine Gaul (Gaul on this side of the Alps, as opposed to Transalpine Gaul).
It's considered a matter of courtesy to use this term in these types of discussions. It might seem silly but if you talk about trans people and normal people then the implicit connection is that trans people are abnormal, which isn't very nice.
The trans character is just poorly done and reeks of agenda due to how poorly she's written. Plenty of people dislike it for this reason, trans included.
Some people might just dislike her for being trans, yes, but from what I've seen, a good portion that don't like it and other writing is how it's actually written rather than the actual identities of the characters.
Breaking it down into simple bigotry is wrong, as for many, it's not that.
Except it is pure bigotry. Would the internet make such a shitfest if his answer to question about his name was: "I was born together with my twin sister. We did everything together. One day when we were 12 she drowned in a lake and I could not save her. My life became living hell after that and I wanted to kill myself more than once. But one day my parents made me see that life goes on and that we must continue living and fighting and that my sister would want that. We agreed I should honor her and the connection we had by changing my name. I made this name as combination of different languages so I can always remember her and feel that she is part of me."
Tell me truthfully, would there be such a shitfest? I bet people would even quote that and say what a touching story (well not this exactly because I am a shit writer )
Let me quote myself and say: I see people ignore this post of mine. Probably because they would need to lie to counter it. But also ignoring it means I am right.
Honestly, I would go "urgh, that is a horrible piece of writing" and move on. But we're not dealing with the rights of twins, or the need to grieve a close one's death in their own way, we're dealing a wrongful belief that Transgender'ism is "weird, bad and corrupting our youth" that is quite widely held, out of ignorance more than actual bigotry.
Transgender'ism is pretty much in the same place as homosexuality was a few decades back, where it isn't widely understood and accepted by the unwashed masses (and unfortunately, it still isn't in some places of the world), so care and attention needs to be taken when introducing it to people. I can virtually guarantee you that the acceptance of homosexuality we have now came out of the carefully created, sympathetic and humanizing characters that have been in mass media, and not the "I'm gay *clicks fingers* deal with it" stereotype.
Hey friends. I noticed some discussion about this previously and would like to inform some of you that "cis" is a perfectly valid term. It comes from the Latin derived prefix cis which means "on this side of", and is the antonym of trans meaning "across from" or "on the other side of". It is used in the cis–trans distinction in chemistry, the cis–trans or complementation test in genetics and in the ancient Roman term Cisalpine Gaul (Gaul on this side of the Alps, as opposed to Transalpine Gaul).
It's considered a matter of courtesy to use this term in these types of discussions. It might seem silly but if you talk about trans people and normal people then the implicit connection is that trans people are abnormal, which isn't very nice.
Thank you for reading.
Careful, I think you just shoved "PC SJW" politics down someone's "throat." They may need some time to recover.
The trans character is just poorly done and reeks of agenda due to how poorly she's written. Plenty of people dislike it for this reason, trans included.
Some people might just dislike her for being trans, yes, but from what I've seen, a good portion that don't like it and other writing is how it's actually written rather than the actual identities of the characters.
Breaking it down into simple bigotry is wrong, as for many, it's not that.
Except it is pure bigotry. Would the internet make such a shitfest if his answer to question about his name was: "I was born together with my twin sister. We did everything together. One day when we were 12 she drowned in a lake and I could not save her. My life became living hell after that and I wanted to kill myself more than once. But one day my parents made me see that life goes on and that we must continue living and fighting and that my sister would want that. We agreed I should honor her and the connection we had by changing my name. I made this name as combination of different languages so I can always remember her and feel that she is part of me."
Tell me truthfully, would there be such a shitfest? I bet people would even quote that and say what a touching story (well not this exactly because I am a shit writer )
Let me quote myself and say: I see people ignore this post of mine. Probably because they would need to lie to counter it. But also ignoring it means I am right.
I have also made the same point several times... People will say, "oh, its not because the character is trans, but because she's poorly written." I then said that a different character in a different situation wouldn't have had near the same reaction, giving an example.. No one replied.
They are the very definiton of abnormal a crocodile that thinks its a chicken is not a normal croc
So someone feels it is perfectly acceptable to declare in a public forum dedicated to a video game that transgender people are abnormal.
That view has absolutely nothing to do with Siege of Dragonspear, and some might argue everything to do with the concerted campaign to discredit, undermine and weaken Siege of Dragonspear.
The trans character is just poorly done and reeks of agenda due to how poorly she's written. Plenty of people dislike it for this reason, trans included.
Some people might just dislike her for being trans, yes, but from what I've seen, a good portion that don't like it and other writing is how it's actually written rather than the actual identities of the characters.
Breaking it down into simple bigotry is wrong, as for many, it's not that.
Except it is pure bigotry. Would the internet make such a shitfest if his answer to question about his name was: "I was born together with my twin sister. We did everything together. One day when we were 12 she drowned in a lake and I could not save her. My life became living hell after that and I wanted to kill myself more than once. But one day my parents made me see that life goes on and that we must continue living and fighting and that my sister would want that. We agreed I should honor her and the connection we had by changing my name. I made this name as combination of different languages so I can always remember her and feel that she is part of me."
Tell me truthfully, would there be such a shitfest? I bet people would even quote that and say what a touching story (well not this exactly because I am a shit writer )
Let me quote myself and say: I see people ignore this post of mine. Probably because they would need to lie to counter it. But also ignoring it means I am right.
Honestly, I would go "urgh, that is a horrible piece of writing" and move on. But we're not dealing with the rights of twins, or the need to grieve a close one's death in their own way, we're dealing a wrongful belief that Transgender'ism is "weird, bad and corrupting our youth" that is quite widely held, out of ignorance more than actual bigotry.
Transgender'ism is pretty much in the same place as homosexuality was a few decades back, where it isn't widely understood and accepted by the unwashed masses (and unfortunately, it still isn't in some places of the world), so care and attention needs to be taken when introducing it to people. I can virtually guarantee you that the acceptance of homosexuality we have now came out of the carefully created, sympathetic and humanizing characters that have been in mass media, and not the "I'm gay *clicks fingers* deal with it" stereotype.
My point is that claims the anger is about "bad" writing is nonsensical. Would you then go online and start spamming forums, reddit, twitter, review sites and give 0/10 scores because of this one "horrible piece of writing"?
He is right of course. But I'm afraid he is going to lose a lot of impact, because he is arguing under a false pretense of what the argument is.
No, he's not. You're shifting the goalpost, as I pointed out above. People started saying this after things really escalated but the majority of complaints I've seen have been about the inclusion of a transgender character in the game.
If the character was poorly written but cisgender, there wouldn't be nearly this kind of response, because it's not the writing quality that prompted it.
Speak for yourself; if you want to act like you know my problems more than I do, then you can take your self-righteous behind and get out.
I think Mizhena is a disaster, but as she is so minor, I will forgive that; I cannot however forgive the absolutely hate-filled attitude the Beamdog staff, Amber Scott especially, expressed for their customers with differing moral values.
I feel unwelcome and unwanted. I've mentioned I won't buy this game, but Amber is probably okay with that because I wouldn't be surprised to hear her say she doesn't want my disgusting money.
Amber among others have acted lower than those they accuse of hate; they are prime examples of why the LGBT crowd is not making as much progress as they want. I own both BGEE games, so I obviously don't have a problem with LGBT characters (or have we forgotten about Dorn?); but Amber has made it very clear, whether it was her intention or not, that if you don't agree with her, get out.
Perhaps Dragonspear is a decent game, but I'll never know because Amber is acting like a despicable human being.
Folks saying "But it was never about the trans character" as if we didn't have people on this very forum arguing that trans people should not exist in Forgotten Realms.
He is right of course. But I'm afraid he is going to lose a lot of impact, because he is arguing under a false pretense of what the argument is.
No, he's not. You're shifting the goalpost, as I pointed out above. People started saying this after things really escalated but the majority of complaints I've seen have been about the inclusion of a transgender character in the game.
If the character was poorly written but cisgender, there wouldn't be nearly this kind of response, because it's not the writing quality that prompted it.
Speak for yourself; if you want to act like you know my problems more than I do, then you can take your self-righteous behind and get out.
I think Mizhena is a disaster, but as she is so minor, I will forgive that; I cannot however forgive the absolutely hate-filled attitude the Beamdog staff, Amber Scott especially, expressed for their customers with differing moral values.
I feel unwelcome and unwanted. I've mentioned I won't buy this game, but Amber is probably okay with that because I wouldn't be surprised to hear her say she doesn't want my disgusting money.
Amber among others have acted lower than those they accuse of hate; they are prime examples of why the LGBT crowd is not making as much progress as they want. I own both BGEE games, so I obviously don't have a problem with LGBT characters (or have we forgotten about Dorn?); but Amber has made it very clear, whether it was her intention or not, that if you don't agree with her, get out.
Perhaps Dragonspear is a decent game, but I'll never know because Amber is acting like a despicable human being.
Whatthe above post actually says....
I think beamdog have a hate filled attitude. I am going to mention one particular member of Beamdog staff 5 times. I am going to pretend this isn't harrasment or bullying of any kind. I am going to attach to said member of staff views and attitudes she may or may not have, but which I think/want her to have. Namely that she has a hateful attitude towards people with different moral values. That she thinks my money is disgusting. That she accuses other people of hate but that she is far worse. That she is is a good example (and thereby partly responsible) for the lack of progress the LGBTcrowd has made (whatever that means). And that finally, for good measure, this employee is acting like a despicable human being.
The above post is harassment and bullying pure and simple.
It has nothing to do with Siege of Dragonspear, and some might argue everything to do with the concerted campaign to discredit, undermine and weaken Siege of Dragonspear.
He is right of course. But I'm afraid he is going to lose a lot of impact, because he is arguing under a false pretense of what the argument is.
No, he's not. You're shifting the goalpost, as I pointed out above. People started saying this after things really escalated but the majority of complaints I've seen have been about the inclusion of a transgender character in the game.
If the character was poorly written but cisgender, there wouldn't be nearly this kind of response, because it's not the writing quality that prompted it.
Speak for yourself; if you want to act like you know my problems more than I do, then you can take your self-righteous behind and get out.
I think Mizhena is a disaster, but as she is so minor, I will forgive that; I cannot however forgive the absolutely hate-filled attitude the Beamdog staff, Amber Scott especially, expressed for their customers with differing moral values.
I feel unwelcome and unwanted. I've mentioned I won't buy this game, but Amber is probably okay with that because I wouldn't be surprised to hear her say she doesn't want my disgusting money.
Amber among others have acted lower than those they accuse of hate; they are prime examples of why the LGBT crowd is not making as much progress as they want. I own both BGEE games, so I obviously don't have a problem with LGBT characters (or have we forgotten about Dorn?); but Amber has made it very clear, whether it was her intention or not, that if you don't agree with her, get out.
Perhaps Dragonspear is a decent game, but I'll never know because Amber is acting like a despicable human being.
Wth! Talking about having her interview taken out of context. Taken to another material plane level.
Ed Greenwood doesn't even want to admit that the character is poorly written. This means that his hands are tied. He cannot say anything negative about any product related to his forgotten realms. This means that the opinion of our beloved creator Ed is invalid.
"Actually, it's about quality of writing in a fantasy game..."
And that, right there is exactly why the Minsc line fell flat and upset people. It isn't a joke, it is actively being used to mock, deride and dismiss people with legitimate criticisms, people who are offering suggestions to try and make things better and lump them in with the extremists doing stupid things.
Seriously. I just... Ugh, what's the point? You're not going to listen, you've made up your mind that everyone who criticises the writing is evil and horrible, no matter their actual motivation. I give up, I seriously do.
Hello friends. I am wondering how many of you played through the original game recently, as I have. A lot of the characters are silly or pointless or even not written as well as they could have. We all still seem to love Baldur's Gate though because there were other character that were well written and the combat was fun or the sense of exploration was intriguing. Perhaps we can carry this feeling over to the expansion as well.
"Actually, it's about quality of writing in a fantasy game..."
And that, right there is exactly why the Minsc line fell flat and upset people. It isn't a joke, it is actively being used to mock, deride and dismiss people with legitimate criticisms, people who are offering suggestions to try and make things better and lump them in with the extremists doing stupid things.
Seriously. I just... Ugh, what's the point? You're not going to listen, you've made up your mind that everyone who criticises the writing is evil and horrible, no matter their actual motivation. I give up, I seriously do.
I have absolutely no problem with people discussing, criticising, and perhaps even condemning the quality of writing in Siege of Dragonspear.
But the bile being spewed out, often under the guise of wanting to critique 'the quality of writing', is simply appalling.
Just today I have seen some terrible insults and abuse. I have seen posts insulting all transgender people. I have seen posts claiming that LGBT content shouldn't be put into mainstream video games. I have just now seen posts that are little more than veiled harassment and bullying of one particular beamdog employee.
None of this relates to Siege of Dragonspear and the quality (or otherwise) of its writing.
Ed Greenwood doesn't even want to admit that the character is poorly written. This means that his hands are tied. He cannot say anything negative about any product related to his forgotten realms. This means that the opinion of our beloved creator Ed is invalid.
What the? Can you seriously not see the flaw in your logic here?
Comments
That is incorrect I'm afraid. I have read several posts over the last few days that said precisely that.
There was a post just this morning that stated: It si (sic) the reason, why game developers should avoid LGBT content in mainstream games.
I see people ignore this post of mine. Probably because they would need to lie to counter it.
But also ignoring it means I am right.
It's considered a matter of courtesy to use this term in these types of discussions. It might seem silly but if you talk about trans people and normal people then the implicit connection is that trans people are abnormal, which isn't very nice.
Thank you for reading.
Transgender'ism is pretty much in the same place as homosexuality was a few decades back, where it isn't widely understood and accepted by the unwashed masses (and unfortunately, it still isn't in some places of the world), so care and attention needs to be taken when introducing it to people. I can virtually guarantee you that the acceptance of homosexuality we have now came out of the carefully created, sympathetic and humanizing characters that have been in mass media, and not the "I'm gay *clicks fingers* deal with it" stereotype.
That view has absolutely nothing to do with Siege of Dragonspear, and some might argue everything to do with the concerted campaign to discredit, undermine and weaken Siege of Dragonspear.
I think Mizhena is a disaster, but as she is so minor, I will forgive that; I cannot however forgive the absolutely hate-filled attitude the Beamdog staff, Amber Scott especially, expressed for their customers with differing moral values.
I feel unwelcome and unwanted. I've mentioned I won't buy this game, but Amber is probably okay with that because I wouldn't be surprised to hear her say she doesn't want my disgusting money.
Amber among others have acted lower than those they accuse of hate; they are prime examples of why the LGBT crowd is not making as much progress as they want. I own both BGEE games, so I obviously don't have a problem with LGBT characters (or have we forgotten about Dorn?); but Amber has made it very clear, whether it was her intention or not, that if you don't agree with her, get out.
Perhaps Dragonspear is a decent game, but I'll never know because Amber is acting like a despicable human being.
I think beamdog have a hate filled attitude. I am going to mention one particular member of Beamdog staff 5 times. I am going to pretend this isn't harrasment or bullying of any kind. I am going to attach to said member of staff views and attitudes she may or may not have, but which I think/want her to have. Namely that she has a hateful attitude towards people with different moral values. That she thinks my money is disgusting. That she accuses other people of hate but that she is far worse. That she is is a good example (and thereby partly responsible) for the lack of progress the LGBTcrowd has made (whatever that means). And that finally, for good measure, this employee is acting like a despicable human being.
The above post is harassment and bullying pure and simple.
It has nothing to do with Siege of Dragonspear, and some might argue everything to do with the concerted campaign to discredit, undermine and weaken Siege of Dragonspear.
Seriously. I just... Ugh, what's the point? You're not going to listen, you've made up your mind that everyone who criticises the writing is evil and horrible, no matter their actual motivation. I give up, I seriously do.
But the bile being spewed out, often under the guise of wanting to critique 'the quality of writing', is simply appalling.
Just today I have seen some terrible insults and abuse. I have seen posts insulting all transgender people. I have seen posts claiming that LGBT content shouldn't be put into mainstream video games. I have just now seen posts that are little more than veiled harassment and bullying of one particular beamdog employee.
None of this relates to Siege of Dragonspear and the quality (or otherwise) of its writing.