And just to add, with reference to critiquing the quality of writing in Siege of Dragonspear, I shall repost an observation I made on another thread about my current no-reload run of BGEE. (I am now in the city itself, if anyone is interested, and going strong!)
In my current no-reload run of BGEE I broke into a womans house in the middle of the night by forcing the door open (I know, I'm not proud of my actions). The woman's immeadiate reaction was to tell me to keep the noise down. I then proceeded to ask the woman whether she had any information on the mines. Her response wasn't to call the guards, or scream at me to get out, or to beg for her life, but instead to tell this well armed bunch of adventurers and killers that men have been dissapearing from the mines, and that her husband works their but hasn't been home for weeks.
Now, I know its a game. I know its not real. But when confronted by a bunch of well armed burglars who have broken into my house in the middle of the night, I know what my first thought/reaction would be. And it wouldn't be to ask them to keep the nosie down, and then have a conversation about my husband/wife's workplace.
Is this an example of bad writing? Has the forum been inundated by posts over the last few days that this example of bad writing needs removing. That it needs to be rewritten. That it breaks people's immersion in the game? That it ruins their overall enjoyment of BGEE and warrants a score of 0 out of 10 for the whole game on so many game review sites?
Anyway, as I said when I posted this observation earlier, I didn't dwell on the incident, took the ring back and she was happy. Job done!
Actually, and what I didn't admit earlier, was that I had already cleared out the mines and had the ring in my possession, and I smashed down that poor woman's door to trigger the quest and then immeadiately give her the ring. It was still job done though!
Ed Greenwood doesn't even want to admit that the character is poorly written. This means that his hands are tied. He cannot say anything negative about any product related to his forgotten realms. This means that the opinion of our beloved creator Ed is invalid.
What the? Can you seriously not see the flaw in your logic here?
I would bother replying if you had bothered inserting an argument there.
Ed Greenwood doesn't even want to admit that the character is poorly written. This means that his hands are tied. He cannot say anything negative about any product related to his forgotten realms. This means that the opinion of our beloved creator Ed is invalid.
Actually his hands are not tied. He got booted from WOTC over a year ago. He has his own company now and will be introducing 16 new settings over the next few years.
Ed supports everyone, though. The guy is like Minsc. The most gentle and kind person you will ever meet. But he has zero say in the Forgotten Realms anymore.
It's considered a matter of courtesy to use this term in these types of discussions. It might seem silly but if you talk about trans people and normal people then the implicit connection is that trans people are abnormal, which isn't very nice.
That sword can cut both ways. From another thread, an angry trans poster was going on and on about "cis het white males" this, and "cis het white males" that.** Even without consulting the Urban Dictionary, it was clear that there was a negative subtext and thinly veiled hostility. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside, and super inclusive, when self-righteous people blame me for every evil ever committed throughout human history.
Ed Greenwood doesn't even want to admit that the character is poorly written. This means that his hands are tied. He cannot say anything negative about any product related to his forgotten realms. This means that the opinion of our beloved creator Ed is invalid.
Actually his hands are not tied. He got booted from WOTC over a year ago. He has his own company now and will be introducing 16 new settings over the next few years.
Ed supports everyone, though. The guy is like Minsc. The most gentle and kind person you will ever meet. But he has zero say in the Forgotten Realms anymore.
I wouldn't go that far. Wizards of the Coast does still consult him from time to time when they have questions about Realms lore. He may not work there anymore, but he is still the setting's author.
Gamergate bros spend days telling us transgender npc was shoehorned in for PC reasons and doesn't fit. Guy who created the Forgotten Realms tells us there has been gender bending in the setting for over 3 decades. Said bros decide the guy who created the world doesn't have the same credibility they do. What a shock. If Jesus Christ returns to Earth in a few hours and comes down on Beamdog's side, he'll be wrong too....
Ed Greenwood doesn't even want to admit that the character is poorly written. This means that his hands are tied. He cannot say anything negative about any product related to his forgotten realms. This means that the opinion of our beloved creator Ed is invalid.
Actually his hands are not tied. He got booted from WOTC over a year ago. He has his own company now and will be introducing 16 new settings over the next few years.
Ed supports everyone, though. The guy is like Minsc. The most gentle and kind person you will ever meet. But he has zero say in the Forgotten Realms anymore.
I wouldn't go that far. Wizards of the Coast does still consult him from time to time when they have questions about Realms lore. He may not work there anymore, but he is still the setting's author.
He is the author, yes. But he is not being consulted anymore.
Ed Greenwood doesn't even want to admit that the character is poorly written. This means that his hands are tied. He cannot say anything negative about any product related to his forgotten realms. This means that the opinion of our beloved creator Ed is invalid.
Actually his hands are not tied. He got booted from WOTC over a year ago. He has his own company now and will be introducing 16 new settings over the next few years.
Ed supports everyone, though. The guy is like Minsc. The most gentle and kind person you will ever meet. But he has zero say in the Forgotten Realms anymore.
I wouldn't go that far. Wizards of the Coast does still consult him from time to time when they have questions about Realms lore. He may not work there anymore, but he is still the setting's author.
He is the author, yes. But he is not being consulted anymore.
I've been present for conversations between him and Mike Mearls on more than one occasion, as recently as a few months ago. He may not be the driving force for the setting's growth and development, but "not being consulted anymore"? That's just plain untrue.
Gamergate bros spend days telling us transgender npc was shoehorned in for PC reasons and doesn't fit. Guy who created the Forgotten Realms tells us there has been gender bending in the setting for over 3 decades. Said bros decide the guy who created the world doesn't have the same credibility they do. What a shock. If Jesus Christ returns to Earth in a few hours and comes down on Beamdog's side, he'll be wrong too....
To be fair, Our Lord Jesus Christ never played Baldur's Gate to my knowledge so He should probably stay out of it. Of course if He is a fan, I'd love to hear His thoughts.
Ed Greenwood doesn't even want to admit that the character is poorly written. This means that his hands are tied. He cannot say anything negative about any product related to his forgotten realms. This means that the opinion of our beloved creator Ed is invalid.
Actually his hands are not tied. He got booted from WOTC over a year ago. He has his own company now and will be introducing 16 new settings over the next few years.
Ed supports everyone, though. The guy is like Minsc. The most gentle and kind person you will ever meet. But he has zero say in the Forgotten Realms anymore.
I wouldn't go that far. Wizards of the Coast does still consult him from time to time when they have questions about Realms lore. He may not work there anymore, but he is still the setting's author.
He is the author, yes. But he is not being consulted anymore.
I've been present for conversations between him and Mike Mearls on more than one occasion, as recently as a few months ago. He may not be the driving force for the setting's growth and development, but "not being consulted anymore"? That's just plain untrue.
Sent you a PM about it over at vroom vroom. Since it wasn't something that would add anything to this thread.
Seems to me like Ed Greenwood is scared of being crucified on public facebook if he ever dares say one, anti SJW comment.
He's a writer, lol, he probably sees both sides at face value. Go ahead, ask him about it. Like many of the others involved in the Realms, he is open to talking.
It's hard to write characters of varying creeds and not come out with an understanding of multiple sides to a lot of real world arguments. It's called empathy.
I'm sure the guy has his own opinion, too, and there isn't anything wrong with that.
Ed Greenwood doesn't even want to admit that the character is poorly written. This means that his hands are tied. He cannot say anything negative about any product related to his forgotten realms. This means that the opinion of our beloved creator Ed is invalid.
What the? Can you seriously not see the flaw in your logic here?
I would bother replying if you had bothered inserting an argument there.
Sorry I had to do something a while ago.
First, not every argument here has to start with openly admitting whether or not the writing is poor. There are other matters, arguments that can be presented even without openly admitting the poor writing, that's just one aspect of this whole thing. With that in mind, and secondly, there's no reasonable connection with admitting poor writing and hands being tied. That's just an assumption on your part; a wrong assumption for that matter. I'm no expert when it comes to D&D other than video games and I only know some bits I've read in wikis, but one thing I can tell you, his hands are not tied, and it's been for a long time already if I'm not mistaken. Third, that would make your conclusion a mere conjecture at best. Fourth, even granting his hands are tied, that would not disqualify him from having an input on the matter. Again, no logical connection. Even Beamdog can have a say on the matter. Should everything they say then be rendered invalid? No, of course not.
And that, right there is exactly why the Minsc line fell flat and upset people. It isn't a joke, it is actively being used to mock, deride and dismiss people with legitimate criticisms, I give up, I seriously do.
Well, a joke is a blunt edged thing sometimes, and it wasn't necessary aimed at you, but if you want to wear the mantle of injured martyrdom, then knock yourself out. You seemed to be making a modicum of sense, FWIW, but you were very much in a minority.
But seriously, if you really think that this hoo-hah is about people expressing "legitimate criticisms", whatever they are, and whoever gets to decide what is and isn't legitimate, you must have been reading different threads to me. All I see is a lot of nerdrage over a couple of lines of dialogue and a humorous reference to a recent controversy that some people seem to be taking waaaaaay too seriously.
Seems to me like Ed Greenwood is scared of being crucified on public facebook if he ever dares say one, anti SJW comment.
So are you one of those people that asks someone what is their favorite ice scream flavor and if they don't say chocolate you always follow with "I am sure you are just saying that" ?
if the man says one thing, who are you to claim he means something else? I am waiting for your to tell me what special powers you have that give you that ability?
there's no reasonable connection with admitting poor writing and hands being tied. That's just an assumption on your part; a wrong assumption for that matter.
Usually, people that likes roleplaying games have a good amount of empathy. Picture yourself in Ed Greenwood's shoes. You are a writer. All of your previous work was liberal enough, and thus most of your fan base is liberal. A good deal of them are extreme now, though. They are fifth edition, social justice warriors. They will crucify you on the public square if you dare say anything "bad", even if it's logical. Not to mention you will create controversy and, by extension, make less $ as well as lose fans. What do you say?
See, his position is like any other company. A company usually avoids saying anything negative, under any circumstances, good or bad. Call it conjecture if you want.
Ed Greenwood is scared of all the Social Justice Warriors, and he's not the only one.
P.S. I left my review on the other sites; based off of the Beamdog staff's reaction and comments, they are well-deserving of their poor ratings, and I pray this is their last work in the Baldur's Gate world. Beamdog has utterly annihilated the Baldur's Gate spirit not necessarily in their product but in their attitude.
And sadly this is the essence of the GGers crusade. Plane and simple - thanks for honesty, btw.
Punishing GAME - the work of many, judging the GAME not by it's quality but according to interview with ONE writer and be proud of that action - this is what is wrong with GG.
The Forgotten Realms have always been inclusive of any sexuality or gender. Ed Greenwood is saying it as it is. There are even several spells in the game that lets you alter your sex.
I think he is a bit off when he thinks all the criticism for the game is bigotry, though.
there's no reasonable connection with admitting poor writing and hands being tied. That's just an assumption on your part; a wrong assumption for that matter.
Usually, people that likes roleplaying games have a good amount of empathy. Picture yourself in Ed Greenwood's shoes. You are a writer. All of your previous work was liberal enough, and thus most of your fan base is liberal. A good deal of them are extreme now, though. They are fifth edition, social justice warriors. They will crucify you on the public square if you dare say anything "bad", even if it's logical. Not to mention you will create controversy and, by extension, make less $ as well as lose fans. What do you say?
See, his position is like any other company. A company usually avoids saying anything negative, under any circumstances, good or bad. Call it conjecture if you want.
Ed Greenwood is scared of all the Social Justice Warriors, and he's not the only one.
First off, there's a reasonable presumption that it is just what it appears to be - that that's his take on it, nothing more. Second, you are the one alleging and has the burden of proving your allegations and yet your basis is a mere conjecture and speculation at best? Not good. Be that as it may, I'll play your game.
So third, you say that there's a fear of backlash, but would it not work both ways? If he is truly materially interested as you claim him to be, would he rather not keep quiet? By him speaking and by going on your line of argument and that's according to you not me, he could still potentially lose money. That is so even if many of D&D fans are now sjw (acc to you); surely you're not saying all are sjw, right?
Fourth, you say that he allegedly cannot say anything bad about sjw. Even assuming that is true, so what? Are you telling me that because he is afraid to write something bad about sjw, then he would be compelled to write favorable to "sjw"? Is it just me and that it's 3am here already, or is that completely illogical?
Can we not just settle that he said it because he just wants to say it, not because of fear of anyone, or of fear of losing money or fans?
Lastly, most of what he said is very much factual, why are we even talking about this? Why bring this up?
As I said, call it conjecture if you will. If you really do not want to get any hints and read anything at all between the lines, it's your right. Play dumb if it's your angle.
Wth man, I even played by your game; meaning, I did not dismiss your argument by simply calling it conjecture then just stopped there. I went on. Did you even bother reading my post? I did not in any way play dumb, I painstakingly wrote my counterargument, despite being so damn sleepy already.
I should have known that you're a troll, I wouldn't have bothered. Then again, I may still have. I enjoyed the conversation nonetheless. Good night [morning]
Comments
In my current no-reload run of BGEE I broke into a womans house in the middle of the night by forcing the door open (I know, I'm not proud of my actions). The woman's immeadiate reaction was to tell me to keep the noise down. I then proceeded to ask the woman whether she had any information on the mines. Her response wasn't to call the guards, or scream at me to get out, or to beg for her life, but instead to tell this well armed bunch of adventurers and killers that men have been dissapearing from the mines, and that her husband works their but hasn't been home for weeks.
Now, I know its a game. I know its not real. But when confronted by a bunch of well armed burglars who have broken into my house in the middle of the night, I know what my first thought/reaction would be. And it wouldn't be to ask them to keep the nosie down, and then have a conversation about my husband/wife's workplace.
Is this an example of bad writing? Has the forum been inundated by posts over the last few days that this example of bad writing needs removing. That it needs to be rewritten. That it breaks people's immersion in the game? That it ruins their overall enjoyment of BGEE and warrants a score of 0 out of 10 for the whole game on so many game review sites?
Anyway, as I said when I posted this observation earlier, I didn't dwell on the incident, took the ring back and she was happy. Job done!
Actually, and what I didn't admit earlier, was that I had already cleared out the mines and had the ring in my possession, and I smashed down that poor woman's door to trigger the quest and then immeadiately give her the ring. It was still job done though!
Ed supports everyone, though. The guy is like Minsc. The most gentle and kind person you will ever meet. But he has zero say in the Forgotten Realms anymore.
**I assure you that I ain't no cissy.
It's hard to write characters of varying creeds and not come out with an understanding of multiple sides to a lot of real world arguments. It's called empathy.
I'm sure the guy has his own opinion, too, and there isn't anything wrong with that.
TL;DR so the f**k what?
First, not every argument here has to start with openly admitting whether or not the writing is poor. There are other matters, arguments that can be presented even without openly admitting the poor writing, that's just one aspect of this whole thing. With that in mind, and secondly, there's no reasonable connection with admitting poor writing and hands being tied. That's just an assumption on your part; a wrong assumption for that matter. I'm no expert when it comes to D&D other than video games and I only know some bits I've read in wikis, but one thing I can tell you, his hands are not tied, and it's been for a long time already if I'm not mistaken. Third, that would make your conclusion a mere conjecture at best. Fourth, even granting his hands are tied, that would not disqualify him from having an input on the matter. Again, no logical connection. Even Beamdog can have a say on the matter. Should everything they say then be rendered invalid? No, of course not.
But seriously, if you really think that this hoo-hah is about people expressing "legitimate criticisms", whatever they are, and whoever gets to decide what is and isn't legitimate, you must have been reading different threads to me. All I see is a lot of nerdrage over a couple of lines of dialogue and a humorous reference to a recent controversy that some people seem to be taking waaaaaay too seriously.
if the man says one thing, who are you to claim he means something else? I am waiting for your to tell me what special powers you have that give you that ability?
See, his position is like any other company. A company usually avoids saying anything negative, under any circumstances, good or bad. Call it conjecture if you want.
Ed Greenwood is scared of all the Social Justice Warriors, and he's not the only one.
Do you not notice that this sounds like something a paranoid conspiracy theorist would say?
Punishing GAME - the work of many, judging the GAME not by it's quality but according to interview with ONE writer and be proud of that action - this is what is wrong with GG.
I think he is a bit off when he thinks all the criticism for the game is bigotry, though.
So third, you say that there's a fear of backlash, but would it not work both ways? If he is truly materially interested as you claim him to be, would he rather not keep quiet? By him speaking and by going on your line of argument and that's according to you not me, he could still potentially lose money. That is so even if many of D&D fans are now sjw (acc to you); surely you're not saying all are sjw, right?
Fourth, you say that he allegedly cannot say anything bad about sjw. Even assuming that is true, so what? Are you telling me that because he is afraid to write something bad about sjw, then he would be compelled to write favorable to "sjw"? Is it just me and that it's 3am here already, or is that completely illogical?
Can we not just settle that he said it because he just wants to say it, not because of fear of anyone, or of fear of losing money or fans?
Lastly, most of what he said is very much factual, why are we even talking about this? Why bring this up?