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The creator of Forgotten Realms chimes in

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  • MaximvsMaximvs Member Posts: 94
    I'm not trolling. I'm interpreting your point of view ; you take things at face value.
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    edited April 2016
    gangler said:

    zealer said:

    It's nice to see him chiming in but nobody is complaining about the existence of the character, but how it was written, which from this line

    we generally don't rub the reader's nose in sex unless there's a good in-story reason for it.
    it seems like he would be against it. There is no good in-story reason for that character.
    They also don't rub your nose in it.

    Why do we need "good in story reasons" to have a trans character? Like this carry on from anti-SJWs is incredibly insulting. Do you go up to people in the street asking them WHY ARE YOU BLACK!?

    Nobody needs a reason to be straight or white or anything. It really bothers me that any sort of difference is treated as some sort of special commodity that needs to be tackled in a certain way, isn't that the sort of thing you claim results in tokenistic representations anyway? Like, absolutely put in trans characters just because. If they're shit we'll call you on it. But you don't need a "reason" for them to exist.

    I think what Daddy Greenwood was saying was that they don't dwell too much on details with regards sexual things(though I'm a little sceptical of this given Ed and his Festhalls) and I think that fits with what we've seen from Mizhena. I think people are once again quick to jump on the "but it's not the trans character!" thing and missing the point.

    What Ed was trying to say was that it doesn't break theme or lore to have a character that is transgender and open about it. This was one of the main concerns and he put it to bed. I just wish GG would too.
  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 878
    Uh huh ;) I see, so I'm playing dumb and now I'm taking things at face value eh? Fine. :D But next time will you be so kind as to substantiate your claims?

    Oh, you have to admit, the "can't write bad about sjw" argument is pretty illogical, right? I have to say, that's one clever trolling you did there. Silly me for falling for it. :D
  • SamySamy Member Posts: 51
    Maximvs said:

    I'm not trolling. I'm interpreting your point of view ; you take things at face value.

    Oh my god, how horrible, taking things people say at face value instead of seeing conspiracies everywhere.
  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 878
    If only I have the energy left to make an Ancient Aliens meme right now...
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    Korevac said:

    I stopped playing after talking to the tranny and the stoner character it was just too much.
    May as well have an npc talk about who he's following on twitter and who he thinks is going to win the European cup this year or how much he likes john oliver.

    Tranny is a slur. It's not your word to use. I can use it and I'll let close friends use it in private. I'm getting really sick of this "I'm not transphobic" nonsense when you're just defining transphobia in a way that never covers the crap you say.

    There's nothing fourth wall breaking about having a trans character there. It's not about "the writing" which was careful to avoid any specific contemporary language. Your problem here is that you don't want to see trans characters in fantasy games. Ed dealt with that issue. He is the creator of this world, and he was taking on exactly the "concern" you're expressing here.

    There's generally quite a bit of anarchronistic stuff in these games anyway. It gets boring if take themselves too seriously or pretend that settings like that would remain eternally purely pseudo-medieval, esp. with all the contact with other realms. It comes across as even more forced to think up new words for things like "racism". If we were to have an honest depiction of medieval English here, it wouldn't be modern English at all, but Middle English, which is quite a different language(more purely Germanic).

    There are tons of words equally out of place as racism or hell even transgender you don't bat an eyelid at. I can guarantee this. Using simple, modern language can help players connect with what's going on. Nobody said the characters are speaking english in the first place.

    And again, they went to SPECIFIC EFFORT not to use modern terminology and not a single critic has conceded this. It's really pissing me off.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Keep the discussion on topic, folks.
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    Korevac said:

    Inconnu said:

    Korevac said:

    I stopped playing after talking to the tranny and the stoner character it was just too much.
    May as well have an npc talk about who he's following on twitter and who he thinks is going to win the European cup this year or how much he likes john oliver.

    But all the fourth wall breaking out of character cameos and silly encounters in the originals were totally cool, right? A dude called Lord Foreshadow literally walks up to you and starts talking about Neverwinter Nights.
    Didn't really notice it in the originals because it was subtle and well written. SoD may as well have big rainbow neon signs everywhere That say ITS 2016 PEOPLE
    You didn't notice it in the original because it wasn't something you take issue with. You have double standards for content that covers "progressive" issues(and can we please stop pretending the existence of trans people is a modern thing? thanks) and other things. You flagged this because the character is trans. Because you see anti-SJWs putting constant scrutiny on social justice issues and inclusion/representation. CRPGs are FULL of corny writing. This barely registers.

    The reason it does is because some people act like it's a moral sin for a character to be blatantly and unapologetically trans.
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    My view-point:

    Reactive hetero-normative gamers that jump out of their little barrel, nostrils flared when they sniff out an opinion or view-point that differs, in order to descend a rain of troll-snot to drown those out... It's a minority really. A loud one maybe, but a minority.

    (this is amiably critical banter, btw - the very anti-trans / anti-metareference campaign has been a demonstration of a sadly limited capability for self-irony and self-awareness, IMO)

    :-D
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    Osigold said:

    Pop culture references are a positive thing, in my view, because they're a unifying force. The developers take something that they think their fans might appreciate and also enjoy on the basis that they like the game, and throw it a nod. If you get it, then it's a cool little moment and if you don't, then it's a little mystery or something you can enjoy on a replay or point out to a friend. I didn't understand Bub Snikt the first times I played Baldur's Gate, so when I revisited the gamer later and got to be "in" on the joke, that was awesome for me.

    Inserting obvious and specific modernity into a game that's set in a setting like the Realms isn't a pop culture reference. Having a character sound like they just came from Tumblr does not make you go "Oh cool, Tumblr, I use that to talk about my headmates!" because it's not even a pop reference culture to Tumblr. It's just glaringly out of place.

    Trans people are not a modern invention and the language used is not in any way the "tumblr" standard for this. They don't use words like trans, cis, etc. they speak blatantly in generalised and ambiguous terms. IT's no more specific than the awful joke in Pillars of Eternity, which of course none of the anti-SJW/GG types had issue with, and were aggressively trying to shut down those that did.

    Again - people are fine with the presence of trans themes as long as they're a joke. This is because, honestly, the majority of people in this thread consider on some level trans people to be a joke, to be disposable. I know from experience that you people don't really look at me as a full human.

    Also the fact that you consider pop culture references "unifying" but the very presence of trans people divisive is telling. Depicting trans people in a hateful or disgusting like(Like in Pillars of Eternity) is fine and not something to get offended over. But having a trans person explain their backstory... that's worth a boycott. One issue here actually matters which is why people took action against it. And even then they weren't as utterly childish about it as GG has been. These are people that have seen humour like that put them in very dangerous positions. They've had friends in situations like in that rhyme and been fucking killed. GGers really need to get some perspective.
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    To continue:

    I dare wager most gaming fans just get on enjoying SoD, because they love BG universe, and are happy that this gaming joy has been extended.

    It does not mean being cool about bugs, loving all writing choices and characters, or suspending critical faculties. Mostly it means, meanwhile, getting on with the gaming, and respecting some aspects of the game are there to bring immersion to our fellow gamers, even we do not favor them.

    I am - we are? - rather perplexed, and appalled, that self-styled gamingfans would try and deny 30 hours of enjoyable gaming from others because they don't like it.

    It's a failed project though. I do not like others projecting their dislikes to try and dictate what I should think about games. I also cannot for a moment imagine that gaming immersion and joy is something that fragile, those individuals must be plausibly faking it.

    I like SoD, and seemingly so do many others, and I am grateful to Beamdog for having delivered me more BG gameplay, after all hope was gone. This genuine thankfulness is also the rationale I have wanted to chime in, besides just gaming away.

    Thank you Beamdog! :-)
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    Korevac said:

    Cis isnt a real word i think you mean normal, it sounds ridiculous

    Oh my god. You are transphobic. You are really really transphobic. Can we please just stop and have everyone acknowledge that people like this are a problem if nothing else? Like they can bitch about "safe spaces" but we shouldn't have to have this discussion where people are making remarks like this. Trans people are not inherently "abnormal", oh my god. And no the problem isn't that I'm " triggered". The problem is that you are transphobic. It is a word, it also means something. There are situations when it applies. Impling trans people are inherently abnormal is hateful. Hate, phobia, transphobic.

    Also I know a bit about linguistics. Cis is a real world. In fact - it's a very old word that has it's roots in the exact same PIE word that "she" and "him" are descended from. It has a distinct etymology going back something like 6,000 years if not longer. The problem is that it's a word you don't like since it gets in the way of subjugating trans people via othering them.
  • MaximvsMaximvs Member Posts: 94
    edited April 2016
    Illustair said:

    Uh huh ;) I see, so I'm playing dumb and now I'm taking things at face value eh? Fine. :D But next time will you be so kind as to substantiate your claims?

    Oh, you have to admit, the "can't write bad about sjw" argument is pretty illogical, right? I have to say, that's one clever trolling you did there. Silly me for falling for it. :D

    Samy said:

    Maximvs said:

    I'm not trolling. I'm interpreting your point of view ; you take things at face value.

    Oh my god, how horrible, taking things people say at face value instead of seeing conspiracies everywhere.
    This isn't an alien conspiracy. I'm not saying that lizard people are within our government ; all I'm saying is that Ed Greenwood is a name, like a brand, even, and like every company, their public statement must be as politically correct as possible to avoid trouble and or loss of revenue. I'm just digging one step between the lines, and anyone with enough life experience knows that what I say about corporations is true.

    People that does not want to grant me this single step of "conjecture" are indeed taking things at face value. A very innocent opinion, even.
  • SamySamy Member Posts: 51
    Yeah, I'll rather take what Ed Greenwood says at face value than be convinced by a random online stranger that there's some hidden meaning to his words. And I feel pretty good about that.
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101

    "Actually, it's about quality of writing in a fantasy game..."

    And that, right there is exactly why the Minsc line fell flat and upset people. It isn't a joke, it is actively being used to mock, deride and dismiss people with legitimate criticisms, people who are offering suggestions to try and make things better and lump them in with the extremists doing stupid things.

    Seriously. I just... Ugh, what's the point? You're not going to listen, you've made up your mind that everyone who criticises the writing is evil and horrible, no matter their actual motivation. I give up, I seriously do.
    I don't understand why we're suddenly expected to take GG seriously. A majority of people don't think Gamergate has legitimate criticisms. A lot of people have suffered first hand at the hands Gamergate and GG-adjacent mobs. You can't keep pushing SJW as a monolith while claiming no responsibility for people who actually do operate under the same moniker(SJW is a slur that was pushed on us).

    There are absolutely people who engage in hateful behaviour under the GG Moniker, and people who lampshade it with the "actually it's about ethics" line. It's an actual, real issue, and it is something that people should take a jab at, because it is silly.

    I don't think GG should be treated as a marginalised group with valid concerns. I think it's actually really hateful towards the people they've d0xed and bullied to near suicide with their "ethical" concerns. People that gather around figures like Milo who calls Trump "daddy". These are crappy people. Getting offended at me saying that is ridiculous. Saying "not all GGers!" doesn't change the fact that most people still have the same sort of views that give rise to this behaviour.

    How did this became an argument over Gamergate's legitimacy? No. Gamergate are not legitimate. We should not accept them as a movement. Since when has it become "un-PC" to tell GG to get lost?
  • prem0nitionprem0nition Member Posts: 65
    Thank you for making my point for me. I will not engage you any further.
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    Maximvs said:

    Seems to me like Ed Greenwood is scared of being crucified on public facebook if he ever dares say one, anti SJW comment.

    This is ridiculous, given the devs are being crucified for being pro-trans, after a sense anyway. I really wish GG would knock off the "we're oppressed!" angle while being actively complicit in mocking the oppression of actual marginalised groups.

    Freedom of speech etc. doesn't mean freedom of consequence. If people have decided that BEING TRANSPHOBIC IS BAD then that's a good thing. Maybe you don't agree what exactly constitutes transphobia but it's not really your argument in the first place.

    People live in very real fear of Gamergate and general online hate-mobs, bullying. This is a very real thing.
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    Maximvs said:

    Yeah, I red your post, and as they say in the Matrix, you took the blue pill.

    the Matrix was written by 2 trans women btw and they've encouraged people to rewatch it keeping this in mind. Must suck to be alt-right now.
  • DLiteDLite Member Posts: 53
  • MaximvsMaximvs Member Posts: 94
    Roseweave said:

    Maximvs said:

    Yeah, I red your post, and as they say in the Matrix, you took the blue pill.

    the Matrix was written by 2 trans women btw and they've encouraged people to rewatch it keeping this in mind. Must suck to be alt-right now.
    And? What's your point? I don't hate transgender people. I'm just saying that when you invite a transgender person at a DnD table, they usually create a character with the sex they've always wanted to be, and thus creating a transgender NPC is to please the social justice warriors, not the transgender people themselves. And it's true.
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Maximvs said:

    Roseweave said:

    Maximvs said:

    Yeah, I red your post, and as they say in the Matrix, you took the blue pill.

    the Matrix was written by 2 trans women btw and they've encouraged people to rewatch it keeping this in mind. Must suck to be alt-right now.
    And? What's your point? I don't hate transgender people. I'm just saying that when you invite a transgender person at a DnD table, they usually create a character with the sex they've always wanted to be, and thus creating a transgender NPC is to please the social justice warriors, not the transgender people themselves. And it's true.
    You are assuming this friend, it is not a fact.
  • SamySamy Member Posts: 51
    edited April 2016
    I'm just saying that when you invite a transgender person at a DnD table, they usually create a character with the sex they've always wanted to be, and thus creating a transgender NPC is to please the social justice warriors, not the transgender people themselves.
    You sound like you think that trans people only care about the sex of their PC, and not about the public atmosphere. I believe that most trans people would be happy to see the existence of trans people to become accepted as more normal. Regardless of the sex of their PC.
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    Maximvs said:

    Roseweave said:

    Maximvs said:

    Yeah, I red your post, and as they say in the Matrix, you took the blue pill.

    the Matrix was written by 2 trans women btw and they've encouraged people to rewatch it keeping this in mind. Must suck to be alt-right now.
    And? What's your point? I don't hate transgender people. I'm just saying that when you invite a transgender person at a DnD table, they usually create a character with the sex they've always wanted to be, and thus creating a transgender NPC is to please the social justice warriors, not the transgender people themselves. And it's true.
    If you have to keep qualifying you don't hate trans people then we have a problem tbh.

    I play a cis character in D&D but if I wanted to play a trans character that's my own business. In fact it was really interesting for me writing Confessions of a Glamrock Fairy Princess where my PC character in her backstory encounters a trans courtesan for the first time(a "harlot with a hog" as her less politically correct friend Astrid calls it) and how she was actually pretty inappropriate in some ways. Navigating that space was really interesting for me.

    Creating a trans NPC isn't just to appeal to the "social justice warriors". It's there so trans people can feel like they actually exist in a world like this, for once. You're making the mistake that trans identity isn't a thing that exists, but for many or most of us it is. You act like we're inherently being dramatic for making trans be a thing at all(but no problem with wider society making being trans FUCKING AWFUL), when we're constantly shoved and pushed down for trying to be "cis". There's nothing wrong with taking pride in a trans identity.

    In a more ideal world, hell, maybe I'd even like being trans. Maybe I'd like the experiences it gives me even if there are some bumps in the road. Even now I don't know I'd take a do-over as a cis woman. Even if being trans is awful, it's still important we exist.
  • MaximvsMaximvs Member Posts: 94
    Samy said:


    You sound like you think that trans people only care about the sex of their PC, and not about the public atmosphere. I believe that most trans people would be happy to see the existence of trans people to become accepted as more normal. Regardless of the sex of their PC.

    Aaaaaaaand here we go back full circle. As the complaint originally stated, this isn't about DUNGEONS and DRAGONS, this is about a social statement. Thank you.

  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    edited April 2016
    Also as stated when I was playing Baldur's Gate EE I noticed the Dynaheir portrait looked like Laverne Cox so I literally called my character Laverne and made a Laverne Druid and tweeted it to Laverne Cox. I just find the discussion kind of amusing for that reason, since my PC was based off a trans person.


  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101

    Sorry, but it is a stawman. There's been plenty of posts on this forum where people have criticised the writing, and offered suggestions to improve things, such as an expanded dialogue tree, upgrading the character to full recruitable status, and creating quests to assist that character in their end goal. That isn't shifting the goalposts, that is people campaigning to change what is essentially a throwaway, token character into something more meaningful, and more useful in challenging the perspectives of the bigots out there.

    I'm sure you've all heard of the "boiling the frog" metaphor... If not, short version. Stick a frog in a pot of boiling water and it'll jump out, but if you put it in a pot of cold water and raise the heat slowly enough, the frog will cook before it realises that the water is too hot.

    The transgender character in this case is very much like throwing the frog into the hot water and immediately jacking up the heat to full. The frog has jumped out. While my suggestion is to turn up the heat slowly. Bigot recruits the character, plays with them for a few hours, finds them smart, witty and funny, finds them a useful group member, and then slowly and carefully the character comes to their PC and admits that they're transgender. Suddenly the bigot is faced with a quandary.

    "this character is transgendered? I hate transgendered people..! But I like this character, they're funny and useful..." Etc. You challenge their viewpoints, make them think. Give them an option to reject the character if they so choose so their gaming experience can continue with as little sour taste in their mouth if they so choose, but if they decide to stick with it...

    "Oh look, a quest that allows me to change that person magically into the gender they want! Let's do that!" They go through the quest and complete it, suddenly they're not thinking of that character as transgendered, but as a full member of their chosen gender. You have normalised transgender'ism for one bigot through a game, and hopefully it is a lesson that they take into the real world.

    Of course you are going to get those who will still go "OMG a Tranny!!! *rage* #ruinedforever" but those are the ones who can't/won't be changed, but there's plenty of people out there who might just do so if their viewpoints were challenged correctly.

    Again Tranny is not your word to use. Please don't use it. Please stop acting like you're not transphobic if you're still at the point where you casually refer to us with a slur.

    People like you are still actively avoiding taking on the actual dialogue of the NPC. You're asking for a level of discourse here that a lot of games don't really go into with their NPCs. It's easy to feel that what you're saying is disingenous. Just because you claim it's really about something else, doesn't mean we have to believe you. We've seen this pattern before. And again, several people have outright acted like trans people are inherently 'tumblr' and just as out of place as direct references to john oliver. I don't understand how GG keeps doing this. Even if you don't personally agree with this person you must agree they are a presence here and that is the most alarming thing that Ed decided to tackle.
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    Maximvs said:

    Illustair said:

    Uh huh ;) I see, so I'm playing dumb and now I'm taking things at face value eh? Fine. :D But next time will you be so kind as to substantiate your claims?

    Oh, you have to admit, the "can't write bad about sjw" argument is pretty illogical, right? I have to say, that's one clever trolling you did there. Silly me for falling for it. :D

    Samy said:

    Maximvs said:

    I'm not trolling. I'm interpreting your point of view ; you take things at face value.

    Oh my god, how horrible, taking things people say at face value instead of seeing conspiracies everywhere.
    This isn't an alien conspiracy. I'm not saying that lizard people are within our government ; all I'm saying is that Ed Greenwood is a name, like a brand, even, and like every company, their public statement must be as politically correct as possible to avoid trouble and or loss of revenue. I'm just digging one step between the lines, and anyone with enough life experience knows that what I say about corporations is true.

    People that does not want to grant me this single step of "conjecture" are indeed taking things at face value. A very innocent opinion, even.
    Here's the problem - you say this - but then when we try to explain to you the systems that are in place that stand in the way of LGBT representation etc. you dismiss THAT as some conspiracy. Like, there are reasons why people don't chance it with trans characters and after this you should see why.
  • laeknirlaeknir Member Posts: 58
    Roseweave said:

    Tranny is a slur. It's not your word to use. I can use it and I'll let close friends use it in private. I'm getting really sick of this "I'm not transphobic" nonsense when you're just defining transphobia in a way that never covers the crap you say.

    This is simply not true. I am a therapist who works with people in the LGBTQ community, and "tranny" is absolutely not a slur.

    It is a term that has fallen out of favor. Some trans people prefer to use the term for self-description (including some trans authors), and others dislike and object to it. But inherently, the term is not a slur.

    At this moment in time, GLAAD has suggested that reporters and others let the term fall into disuse so that it isn't misunderstood, but make no mistake there are trans people who claim the term and proudly use it - and they don't mind when others use it.

  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    There are also many who find it offensive friends, so it is better to err on the side of caution.
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