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Beamdog's Official Statement (4-6-2016)

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Comments

  • prem0nitionprem0nition Member Posts: 65
    Dorcus said:

    take the source audio of that one line, make sure it exists on only one hard drive in the entire world, take it out deep into the Canadian woods under the darkness of a new moon, burn it as an offering to Bhaal, and salt the earth to that nothing there grows ever again

    lol!

    Seriously though, while I hate the line with a passion, it does exist. I hope that modders extract it while it's still available and create a mod to put it back in for those who were fine with it, just like what happened with Pillars of Eternity "joke" tombstone that was removed.

    SilmarilNaroKrotosronaldoJuliusBorisov
  • SilmarilNaroSilmarilNaro Member Posts: 17


    Seriously though, while I hate the line with a passion, it does exist. I hope that modders extract it while it's still available and create a mod to put it back in for those who were fine with it, just like what happened with Pillars of Eternity "joke" tombstone that was removed.

    I agree. It exists, and for those of us who only ever got the very edges of GG, it's amusing in it's own way. Bring on the restoration mods!

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Dorcus said:

    take the source audio of that one line, make sure it exists on only one hard drive in the entire world, take it out deep into the Canadian woods under the darkness of a new moon, burn it as an offering to Bhaal, and salt the earth to that nothing there grows ever again

    Oh, I like yer style and sense of humour Dorcus! I rather chuckled reading this...

    And if the person overseeing that ritual is female, let them cut their wrists and dance under that moonlight - maybe we'll get grand enchanter Orsino unto scene, and Bhaal can devour his essence! (I love DA2 that's why)

  • KrotosKrotos Member Posts: 156
    Well done, Mr Trent. Well done indeed.

  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    Well played. My respect has gone up for Trent and Beamdog. Im against censorship but i think the Minsc decision was probably the right call. It was out of character and tbh it would be a constant reminder of this debacle. Hopefully as things settle we'll start to see an honest score emerge. It sounds like the game is great aside from some bugs. Im looking forward to finishing my EE run through.

    Buttercheese
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 792
    Mixed feelings. Honestly, "Actually, it's about ethics in X" is the domain of pop culture at this point and it is absurd to call its inclusion some sort of "attack" on anyone. I also feel far too many fans of these games forget that the originals were absolutely riddled with pop culture jokes, anachronistic and fourth-wall breaking dialogue, and other such silliness. OTOH, I don't know the context of the line, so if Trent and the Beamdog team feels it wasn't appropriate for Minsc, I'll take them at their word.

    Beamdog has nothing - absolutely nothing - to apologise for with the inclusion of Mizhena. Edwin tells you about his highly illegal and immoral plans the first time you lay eyes on him and he's a revered character. How you respond to lots of people is constrained as well - look at all the responses you and your journal are obligated into at Candlekeep (hope you weren't roleplaying a character who takes things seriously!). Nonsensical infodumps are par for the course both in the game and the genre; Mizhena's infodump was relatively restrained since it at least involves an inquiry first.

    I'm happy it sounds like the character (or another trans character?) is being expanded. I am not overly thrilled about why this is so. But ultimately it's not my livelihood that is affected by appeasing the steaming bowels of the internet, so I'm not going to judge Beamdog for compromising in the face of an organised hate campaign. Ultimately, I bought Siege of Dragonspear in support for Beamdog's stance here (and in the past, e.g., Hexxat and the predictable storm of outrage over that); I'd probably have gotten it eventually anyways but haven't played BG in a few years and thus it wasn't really on my radar at the moment (as an aside note, boy have you guys really reworked the UI - good job!). Given their track record, I'm still trusting Beamdog to do the best they can.

    cmk24Illustair
  • skeptik_59skeptik_59 Member Posts: 38
    While I personally see the deletion of Minsc's line as an example of pandering to one section of one's potential audience, it was BD's decision to make to put the line in, and it is their decision to make to take the line out. Since it isn't my decision to make, I'll say no more on that topic.

    I fully support the other decisions described in the original post. I especially look forward to seeing a well-rounded, more fully developed Trans character in SoD. BD has an opportunity to create something here that will fully justify "going there" in the first place. While I'd like to see a party-joinable NPC come out of this, any improvement will be welcome, to me.

    Thanks for the update.

  • Ciaran_LavalCiaran_Laval Member Posts: 2
    Really good statement that addresses the major talking points in a very civil tone. Thank you very much and hopefully we can now all get on with adventuring and being constructive. Magic is impressive but now Minsc leads. Swords for everyone!

    Krotos
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Mikey205 said:

    Well played. My respect has gone up for Trent and Beamdog. Im against censorship but i think the Minsc decision was probably the right call. It was out of character and tbh it would be a constant reminder of this debacle. Hopefully as things settle we'll start to see an honest score emerge. It sounds like the game is great aside from some bugs. Im looking forward to finishing my EE run through.

    I am genuinely curious: how exactly is it out of character? I never really got that point, so why do you perso think so?

    Since I enjoy SoD and find this sort of outrage detracting from the gaming enjoyment and actual quality of this expansion - which is the purpose surely - I am also supportive of Beamdog removing it even if this would not have been necessary from my perspective. I've already gotten on with it, but if it helps anyone else, I'm all for it.

  • MushroomKingMushroomKing Member Posts: 3
    As a huge BG fan that has bough all the EE up until now, I am very pleased.

    I had refunded my copy after reading up on all the stuff and the initial responses from beamdog.

    I think the Trans character was poorly handled and shoehorned in to the game to tick off a diversity box, if the character gets written in a way that is actually meaningful, maybe add a quest with a specific item *wink wink* that would be fantastic if the MC could actually help her.

    Minsc line was an antagonizing reference towards a group of people, many of which are rpg fans and a bunch of those are BG fans. I think it's good it got removed. I don't have problems with clever eastereggs and references, but insulting a group will always draw negative attention and Minsc really doesn't need that, does he?

    While I believe the writers motives will always taint her work, as she believes in forcing diversity in to all her games no matter what, I can totally understand why beamdog would defend its employees.

    And most importantly, yes please fix the MP cause playing the game with a few friends is amazing and without that the game loses a lot of its replay value.

    Thanks that you listed to the community(part of it), I'll buy the game again.

    XKalTakisMegasCharanthirDK
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    I'm sort of upset that you guys decided to gave to GG on the pun. I mean even if it was out of place, it sends the message that GG are a protected group you can't criticise while they simultaneously argue for the right to be mean to a trans woman. It's a joke.

    AyiekieGenderNihilismGirdleJuliusBorisovdickerj
  • nlyhnlyh Member Posts: 18
    I knew something like this would come out eventually. I see it as a good move.

    The issues mentioned by Trent were something I did not like in the game, however the game was otherwise great and I reviewed it as so on Steam. It's just a shame that so many felt the need to trash attack the game, company and developers rather than provide the constructive feedback that the DEV team would be listening too.

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Ayiekie said:

    Mixed feelings. Honestly, "Actually, it's about ethics in X" is the domain of pop culture at this point and it is absurd to call its inclusion some sort of "attack" on anyone.

    Or at least: if you mete out attacks of varying viciousness yourself, it seems just a tad hypocritical to cry foul on a rather good-humored line at your own expense. This makes you a hypocrite without sense of humour or self-irony in my books.

    I agree with you though - meta references are a BW classic! But if Beamdog wishes to preempt in this manner, I will be no less their fan.

    Ayiekiesubtledoctor
  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    Main prob with Minsc line was that it was out of character. They should replace it with that classic line "Ahh we are all heroes, you and boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere rejoice". Brings everyone together.

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Mikey205 said:

    Main prob with Minsc line was that it was out of character. They should replace it with that classic line "Ahh we are all heroes, you and boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere rejoice". Brings everyone together.

    But: Minsc is fundamentally strongly ethics driven character. And if he can manage words like "miniature" and "righteousness" - "ethics" fits in just fine. (IMO)

    Remember: in BG2, when Minsc sees a slavers mobbing a victim to imprison and abuse him, he goes beserk without asking your leave.

    If Minsc saw a bunch of anonymous hate-peddlers attack a lone victim - where do you think his butt-kicking would be directed?

    I actually find Minsc to be a lovable, ethical, empathetic character - and therefore have no doubt where Minsc would stand there. As to Minsc being too simple-minded to be so clever - why do you assume he knows he was being clever?

    He clearly was VERY innocent about it, in view of the reaction generated.

    subtledoctormashedtatersGrummf2112
  • Ciaran_LavalCiaran_Laval Member Posts: 2
    This forum could do with a "thanks" option too, but that's an aside.

    JuliusBorisov
  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    TStael said:

    Mikey205 said:

    Main prob with Minsc line was that it was out of character. They should replace it with that classic line "Ahh we are all heroes, you and boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere rejoice". Brings everyone together.

    But: Minsc is fundamentally strongly ethics driven character. And if he can manage words like "miniature" and "righteousness" - "ethics" fits in just fine. (IMO)

    Remember: in BG2, when Minsc sees a slavers mobbing a victim to imprison and abuse him, he goes beserk without asking your leave.

    If Minsc saw a bunch of anonymous hate-peddlers attack a lone victim - where do you think his butt-kicking would be directed?

    I actually find Minsc to be a lovable, ethical, empathetic character - and therefore have no doubt where Minsc would stand there. As to Minsc being too simple-minded to be so clever - why do you assume he knows he was being clever?

    He clearly was VERY innocent about it, in view of the reaction generated.
    Minsc is a character that is very black and white. Adventuring to him is about kicking evil. He doesnt think about whats good and evil as abstract ideas and philosophies but more by instinct and intuition. It didnt sound right from him at all to me. It seems more khalid or jaheira or dynaheir. The reaction generated was absolutely out of proportion though.

  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101

    As a huge BG fan that has bough all the EE up until now, I am very pleased.

    I had refunded my copy after reading up on all the stuff and the initial responses from beamdog.

    I think the Trans character was poorly handled and shoehorned in to the game to tick off a diversity box, if the character gets written in a way that is actually meaningful, maybe add a quest with a specific item *wink wink* that would be fantastic if the MC could actually help her.

    Minsc line was an antagonizing reference towards a group of people, many of which are rpg fans and a bunch of those are BG fans. I think it's good it got removed. I don't have problems with clever eastereggs and references, but insulting a group will always draw negative attention and Minsc really doesn't need that, does he?

    While I believe the writers motives will always taint her work, as she believes in forcing diversity in to all her games no matter what, I can totally understand why beamdog would defend its employees.

    And most importantly, yes please fix the MP cause playing the game with a few friends is amazing and without that the game loses a lot of its replay value.

    Thanks that you listed to the community(part of it), I'll buy the game again.

    Why do you assume the trans character needs "help" though? and I'm a bit worried as to what this specific item would be.

  • rojayrojay Member Posts: 20
    edited April 2016
    I suspect the decision to change the game was painful. I hope that there wasn't too much internal strife over it. Ultimately, it's a good move for Beamdog, and I trust that the support Mr. Oster expressed for all of the developers, including those who wrote the "offending" content, is real, and not just window dressing. I would be happy to see a more thoughtful approach to Mizhana (sp?).

    That said, I've enjoyed the game from the start, and I'm still enjoying it. I've read estimates of 25 hours for the game, and I guess I'm just slow, because I'm pretty sure I'm already about 20 hours in, and I can't be more than about halfway through. My experience has also been almost bug-free, and the few I have experienced were resolved with a reload.

    SoD has been well worth the money already, and I expect I'll play through it again at least a couple of times in the next year or two. Hopefully we'll get an announcement in the near future that additional Baldur's Gate content (or even just Forgotten Realms + Infinity Engine content) is in the works from Beamdog. I'll pre-order anything of the sort, that's for sure.

    SoD brought me back to playing the original series, and I'm anxious for more.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,238
    janic said:

    Moreover, I think/hope I speak for most people in the critical camp that we would prefer everyone to stay civil in their criticism.

    Really? The lies published on Metacritic are hardly "civil."

    TStaelmf2112
  • marcerormarceror Member Posts: 577

    I'm sure the critics will be *thrilled* to have further expansion on a minority character. This was, after all, their sincere desire and it has paid off in full.

    It's a good thing. Beamdog will get to keep their artistic vision, which in no way seems to be out of alignment with the Forgotten Realms. And, the players will (presumably) receive a more well written version of a character who seemingly deserves to be better written.

    And, Minsc will continue to be the guy who has nothing bad to say about anyone, except for those Boo reveals to be in league with evil!

  • jankieljankiel Member Posts: 127
    These are good choices. Hope we can move forward and concentrate on how awesome this game is.

    JuliusBorisov
  • XKalXKal Member Posts: 58
    edited April 2016
    Thanks for the update, Trent. I'm looking forward to the bugs being squashed. To be honest, much of the writing in SoD is not my cup of tea, so I think I'll be more judicious in the future with regards to purchasing beamdog games (even if they are in the baldur's gate franchise). Regardless, I appreciate your post and even-handed response to the issues raised.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,954
    edited April 2016
    gangler said:



    Ha! Yeah. Was thinking about this with Pokemon a while ago. It's inconvenient how periodically I'll boot up Pokemon and it'll ask me to patch, but at the same time those early Pokemon games were buggy messes

    Which is kind of funny since MissingNo's are one of my strongest memories of the original games. :)

    That and the grinding. So much time spent grinding for gyms.

    booinyoureyesButtercheesejustfeelinathome
  • RhelnaRhelna Member Posts: 17
    Good on you Trent. Well handled. You forever have my respect.

    JuliusBorisov
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