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Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
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Beamdog's Official Statement (4-6-2016)

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Comments

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861



    Nope - you just don't like what they have to say, so you're insisting that they're horrible in some way (clickbait sites).

    We argue reasonably when this individual calls another a dick... Nuff said, no?

    rorikon
  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96

    Yeah, exactly. All she said was that her writing will have diverse characters, but people don't like that she also had words for those who didn't like it.

    They keep inflating what she said into this huge controversial thing that literally never happened.

    It's all about knee-jerk condemnation of "political correctness" and "social justice."

    True, but she was rather brusque in the way she said it. "If they don't like it, Too Bad.", It's prideful, but it's her work! I don't mind that, hell most people didn't mind it, and to use one sentence, likely one made at the end of a long interview, to intimate some grand hateful agenda is disingenuous. That being said, I can see how some (emphasis on some) people would be rubbed the wrong way by that, heck we've all met someone who gets offended by brusqueness I'm sure.

    BelleSorciereSids1188SeraphKrotos
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861



    It's all about knee-jerk condemnation of "political correctness" and "social justice."



    Stewart Lee - "Political correctness gone mad"

    If you do not have the stamina to stay unto end: clickety clickety "Richard Littlejohn." Click-click-clicety. "Truthful but harsh description."

    BelleSorciereAyiekieKrotos
  • skeptik_59skeptik_59 Member Posts: 38

    Yeah, exactly. All she said was that her writing will have diverse characters, but people don't like that she also had words for those who didn't like it.

    They keep inflating what she said into this huge controversial thing that literally never happened.

    It's all about knee-jerk condemnation of "political correctness" and "social justice."

    Yep, THIS. :) If I could upvote you multiple times, I would.

    I know exactly what I think of people [and I use the term loosely] who use SJW and PC as pejoratives... but I can't say it because it would be massively off-topic and, I expect, get me banned. >laffs< [and rightly so...]

    But I *am* giving you multiple virtual likes, a couple of agrees and some insightfuls, even if they don't show up here in the real world. ;)

    Sids1188SeraphKrotosBeetle
  • Zaphas86Zaphas86 Member Posts: 47
    Fantastic response, well done, I think you couldn't have made a better decision. Updating Mizrena with better writing...love it. She shouldn't feel like a token. Realizing you thought the Minsc joke wasn't that funny and insulted a group of fans that love your product, so you're nixing that line...even better!

    I totally appreciate the thought Beamdog and Mr. Oster put into this response, and I will buy SoD. Thank you!

  • SamySamy Member Posts: 51
    If this results in a bigger part for Mizhena I cannot see it as anything other than a good thing, whether it is because of "caving in" to GG or playing them just right.

  • bluntfeatherbluntfeather Member Posts: 61
    Aaezil said:

    So the gamergate crowd who is sooo against censorship has successfully censored a line out of a new game. Well done chaps. *sigh*

    Nah, if you look at where they congregate, many are against its removal.

    Also as mentioned earlier by Trent in this thread: "The line just doesn't make the game better, it doesn't add to Minsc and it does in fact, detract from him."

    This doesn't seem to be censorship, it's an edit. They could have tried to make it funnier, maybe put it somewhere else where it fit better, but at least for now it appears it's just been erased.

    DaggerXIV
  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96
    edited April 2016

    @TrentOster You screwed up. Shame on you.

    This decision is, at best, short sighted and, at worst, stupid. You have given into a bullying campaign and done so in a way that emboldens your opponents and alienates your allies. And you did while you were winning. Every argument the GG crowd was making was falling.

    1. The misogynists and transphobes -- who you prefer to refer to as 'fans' -- argued that trans people didn't belong in setting. The community gathered evidence to the contrary and then the creator of the setting himself weighed in say the transphobes were incorrect. This was the nail in the coffin and the smarter trolls abandoned it -- but they didn't give up.

    2. With this argument dead and buried the misogynists turned to their next argument: this character breaks the 4th wall. Before you turned to appeasement you made an excellent argument: this is a game that refers to the Bob Newheart Show. (and Ren and Stimpy and Loony Tunes and on and on . . .) We both know that the 4th wall is no longer standing in Baldur's Gate. Some 'fans' are still making this argument but they are looking increasingly silly.

    3. And so the most strategic of the GG crowd turned to their final argument. We don't dislike trans people -- we are just concerned that this one wasn't done very well. This was the most important of the arguments because, as you have surmised, the trolls are really after Amber Scott's job. The 'fans' were prepared to be 'offended' something she wrote.

    And you gave into this one. Way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Way to undermine your allies. Way to undermine your employees. And let's deal with last one that shall we?

    This is a lovely sentiment: "we stand behind all our developers 100%" It is also demonstrably false. Sure you don't have any plans to fire her but you are deleting one your employees lines and rewriting her character. If deleting and rewriting is your idea of 100% support I hope you never support me. What would 50% support look like?

    I know what you are telling yourself -- you don't get it killerrabbit we're expanding the role of the trans NPC so we are only giving the (*achem*) 'fans' a quarter of our lunch money while and sticking a finger in their eye. What part of expanding the role of the trans character don't you get?

    This is why that 'strategy' won't work:

    You are a) giving them a victory with the deleted comment and b) signing on to the 'poorly written' / shoehorned notion -- this prepares the ground for their next attack.

    I *promise* you that when you release the rewritten character the GG crowd will pan it. Bookmark this page -- if the trolls keep quiet I'll eat crow.

    How do I know this? Because I've been involved with activist campaigns and we activists have a saying: "How do you eat an elephant? ; One bite at a time" You just game your critics a bite of your elephant and they *will* come back for the rest.

    When the going got tough you gave in. Shame.

    So I'm a gamergater now because I had a problem with how blandly a trans character was written? I have always had an ulterior motive? You're being just as judgemental as the jerks who came storming on to this forum and tried to spread their hate on some very good discussion on how to improve, or leave alone something, by claiming some sort of "sjw" conspiracy against gamers everywhere. That being said, I do agree with you on the ethics joke, if you can't take a good-natured ribbing, what kind of person are you?

    bluntfeatherjanicKrotosrorikon
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861

    I <3 Stewart Lee.</p>

    Ooh, happy to know, as I do, Sorceress! :-)

    I'd still not myself go for "I understand your point of view, and let me minimize your displeasure by explanation." Those whom are biased against, just are. The others will not misquote.

    I would really hate it, if gaming developers would have to mind themselves, rather than be authentic, because minding a given minority is safer than being themselves. I do not want game developers gagged for that.

  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    Is there anyone I can contact about how Mizhena is going to be written in the update? I'd like to put myself forward as a trans consultant. Believe it or not I actually have credentials and stuff and could forward on my my past talks and articles to whoever.

    GenderNihilismGirdle
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Zaphas86 said:

    Realizing you thought the Minsc joke wasn't that funny and insulted a group of fans that love your product, so you're nixing that line...even better!

    I rather thought actual BG fans either would enjoy it, or get quickly over it. But at the very least not throw their toys from the pram for a single line of dialogue!

    Just my take. A fan too. One that was with the original release, and will remain so even now. :-)

    BillyH666rorikon
  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96
    Yeah, like I've said, Minsc's comment seems like a good-natured rib if anything. reaction to it was overkill.

    GenderNihilismGirdlerorikon
  • bluntfeatherbluntfeather Member Posts: 61
    marceror said:

    They aren't removing her, so no, the GG crowd didn't win.


    ...they were never asking for her removal. Just an fyi. Might have been a stray troll you mistook for someone belonging to GG, it's easy to do unfortunately.

    Kei
  • MiloMilo Member Posts: 59

    @TrentOster You screwed up. Shame on you.

    This decision is, at best, short sighted and, at worst, stupid. You have given into a bullying campaign and done so in a way that emboldens your opponents and alienates your allies. And you did so while you were winning. Every argument the GG crowd was making was falling.

    1. The misogynists and transphobes -- who you prefer to refer to as 'fans' -- argued that trans people didn't belong in setting. The community gathered evidence to the contrary and then the creator of the setting himself weighed in say the transphobes were incorrect. This was the nail in the coffin and the smarter trolls abandoned it -- but they didn't give up.

    2. With this argument dead and buried the misogynists turned to their next argument: this character breaks the 4th wall. Before you turned to appeasement you made an excellent argument: this is a game that refers to the Bob Newheart Show. (and Ren and Stimpy and Loony Tunes and on and on . . .) We both know that the 4th wall is no longer standing in Baldur's Gate. Some 'fans' are still making this argument but they are looking increasingly silly.

    3. And so the most strategic of the GG crowd turned to their final argument. We don't dislike trans people -- we are just concerned that this one wasn't done very well. This was the most important of the arguments because, as you have surmised, the trolls are really after Amber Scott's job. The 'fans' were prepared to be 'offended' something she wrote.

    And you gave into this one. Way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Way to undermine your allies. Way to undermine your employees. And let's deal with last one that shall we?

    This is a lovely sentiment: "we stand behind all our developers 100%" It is also demonstrably false. Sure you don't have any plans to fire her but you are deleting one your employees lines and rewriting her character. If deleting and rewriting is your idea of 100% support I hope you never support me. What would 50% support look like?

    I know what you are telling yourself -- you don't get it killerrabbit we're expanding the role of the trans NPC so we are only giving the (*achem*) 'fans' a quarter of our lunch money while and sticking a finger in their eye. What part of expanding the role of the trans character don't you get?

    This is why that 'strategy' won't work:

    You are a) giving them a victory with the deleted comment and b) signing on to the 'poorly written' / shoehorned notion -- this prepares the ground for their next attack.

    I *promise* you that when you release the rewritten character the GG crowd will pan it. Bookmark this page -- if the trolls keep quiet I'll eat crow.

    How do I know this? Because I've been involved with activist campaigns and we activists have a saying: "How do you eat an elephant? ; One bite at a time" You just gave your critics a bite of your elephant and they *will* come back for the rest.

    When the going got tough you gave in. Shame.

    Fantastic and completely on point. You deserve all the points.

    killerrabbit
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    marceror said:

    <
    Wow, way to overreact! Trent didn't give in. He's making reasonable adjustments based on reasonable feedback.

    The Minsc change is absolutely appropriate, and anyone with any sense of who Minsc is knows this.

    The improved writing for the transgender character is also a good thing. They aren't removing her, so no, the GG crowd didn't win.

    /realitycheck

    The problem with so called "culture warriors" on all sides is that no one ever wins until the other "team" is gone.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 1,739

    TStael said:


    I would really hate it, if gaming developers would have to mind themselves, rather than be authentic, because minding a given minority is safer than being themselves. I do not want game developers gagged for that.

    Ironically, is that not exactly what political correctness does?
    Political correctness is a thing invented by people who want to be able to be disrespectful and hateful to marginalized groups (and the members of those groups) with minimal to zero consequences. It only exists as a straw man.

    The impetus toward more respectful language about and treatment of marginalized people is a good thing, not an oppressive authoritarian bugbear that needs to be stopped at all costs.

    killerrabbitAyiekiecraymond727
  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96

    marceror said:

    <
    Wow, way to overreact! Trent didn't give in. He's making reasonable adjustments based on reasonable feedback.

    The Minsc change is absolutely appropriate, and anyone with any sense of who Minsc is knows this.

    The improved writing for the transgender character is also a good thing. They aren't removing her, so no, the GG crowd didn't win.

    /realitycheck

    The problem with so called "culture warriors" on all sides is that no one ever wins until the other "team" is gone.
    Afraid not, it doesn't matter who loses "GG" or "Anti-GG" the surviving side will just pick another targer, that's the internet for you.

    booinyoureyes
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162

    TStael said:


    I would really hate it, if gaming developers would have to mind themselves, rather than be authentic, because minding a given minority is safer than being themselves. I do not want game developers gagged for that.

    Ironically, is that not exactly what political correctness does?
    Political correctness is a thing invented by people who want to be able to be disrespectful and hateful to marginalized groups (and the members of those groups) with minimal to zero consequences. It only exists as a straw man.

    The impetus toward more respectful language about and treatment of marginalized people is a good thing, not an oppressive authoritarian bugbear that needs to be stopped at all costs.
    I think respectful language is a good thing, but it is occasionally taken to far. My point there was that the people railing against political correctness in Siege of Dragonspear did exactly the same thing that they are supposedly opposed to.

    rorikonFoggy
  • LeokostaLeokosta Member Posts: 73
    iasson said:

    I appreciate your decision to expand Mizhena and i personally think it is one of the major requirements of SoD.

    Future petitions:
    - Captain Corwin, tweak the dialog slightly so it doesn't imply mansplaining her.
    - Refugees dialog, add another dialog option that isn't biased towards them
    - Restore Safana to her teasing nature

    Safana´s change of personality bothered me the most. The simple way to make a statement about feminis is to do it on a new character, not destroying an existing one. That would not anger me at all. Anyway, I´d like to thank all Beamdog´s team for making this expansion, and all the hard work. As a big fan of BG series, though I felt disrspected by Minc´s and Safana´s change of personality, I really appreciate have more of BG to play, and hearing that Beamdog are listening to feedback is very nice. Sorry for the bad english and all good to all.

    SharGuidesMyHand
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 6,659

    @TrentOster You screwed up. Shame on you.

    This decision is, at best, short sighted and, at worst, stupid. You have given into a bullying campaign and done so in a way that emboldens your opponents and alienates your allies. And you did so while you were winning. Every argument the GG crowd was making was falling.

    1. The misogynists and transphobes -- who you prefer to refer to as 'fans' -- argued that trans people didn't belong in setting. The community gathered evidence to the contrary and then the creator of the setting himself weighed in say the transphobes were incorrect. This was the nail in the coffin and the smarter trolls abandoned it -- but they didn't give up.

    2. With this argument dead and buried the misogynists turned to their next argument: this character breaks the 4th wall. Before you turned to appeasement you made an excellent argument: this is a game that refers to the Bob Newheart Show. (and Ren and Stimpy and Loony Tunes and on and on . . .) We both know that the 4th wall is no longer standing in Baldur's Gate. Some 'fans' are still making this argument but they are looking increasingly silly.

    3. And so the most strategic of the GG crowd turned to their final argument. We don't dislike trans people -- we are just concerned that this one wasn't done very well. This was the most important of the arguments because, as you have surmised, the trolls are really after Amber Scott's job. The 'fans' were prepared to be 'offended' by something she wrote.

    And you gave into this one. Way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Way to undermine your allies. Way to undermine your employees. And let's deal with last one that shall we?

    This is a lovely sentiment: "we stand behind all our developers 100%" It is also demonstrably false. Sure you don't have any plans to fire her but you are deleting one your employee's lines and rewriting her character. If deleting and rewriting is your idea of 100% support I hope you never support me. What would 50% support look like?

    I know what you are telling yourself -- you don't get it killerrabbit we're expanding the role of the trans NPC so we are only giving the (*achem*) 'fans' a quarter of our lunch money while and sticking a finger in their eye. What part of expanding the role of the trans character don't you get?

    This is why that 'strategy' won't work:

    You are a) giving them a victory with the deleted comment and b) signing on to the 'poorly written' / shoehorned notion -- this prepares the ground for their next attack.

    I *promise* you that when you release the rewritten character the GG crowd will pan it. Bookmark this page -- if the trolls keep quiet I'll eat crow.

    How do I know this? Because I've been involved with activist campaigns and we activists have a saying: "How do you eat an elephant? ; One bite at a time" You just gave your critics a bite of your elephant and they *will* come back for the rest.

    When the going got tough you gave in. Shame.

    This is essentially what I've been thinking and didn't want to come out and say, simply because I've been around here too long. But the GG crowd has already moved the goalposts 3 or 4 times since this started over the weekend. The moment the concessions were announced, people who were on the side of having the Minsc line removed were already petitioning for MORE changes that they might want to make in the future, as if this was a crowd-funded, community effort and not a finished product that has already been released. I mean hell, if this was the mid-90s the game would be what it is. There wouldn't be patches, and the only way the mob could express their supposed victimization would be through a letter-writing campaign, which they would be too lazy to do.

    I especially agree with your comments about the 4th wall. Not just Baldur's Gate does this, not just most RPGs do this, almost all GAMES IN GENERAL do this at one time or another.

    skeptik_59killerrabbitKrotos
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 6,659
    edited April 2016

    TStael said:


    I would really hate it, if gaming developers would have to mind themselves, rather than be authentic, because minding a given minority is safer than being themselves. I do not want game developers gagged for that.

    Ironically, is that not exactly what political correctness does?
    Political correctness is a thing invented by people who want to be able to be disrespectful and hateful to marginalized groups (and the members of those groups) with minimal to zero consequences. It only exists as a straw man.

    The impetus toward more respectful language about and treatment of marginalized people is a good thing, not an oppressive authoritarian bugbear that needs to be stopped at all costs.
    110% accurate and something I repeat whenever possible. This is ALL political correctness is. The pervasiveness of it affects their lives in no tangible way whatsoever, other than pissing them off mentally.

    killerrabbit
  • marcerormarceror Member Posts: 577

    marceror said:

    They aren't removing her, so no, the GG crowd didn't win.


    ...they were never asking for her removal. Just an fyi. Might have been a stray troll you mistook for someone belonging to GG, it's easy to do unfortunately.
    Even so, Beamdog is going to improve her writing, so that's a good thing all around. It should make anyone who genuinely wants to see the game improved happy.

    bluntfeatherKeiKrotos
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