It's good to know they'll be improving / expanding the trans character.
It's also great that Boo will helping Minsc learn self-editing. I avoided the GamerGate stuff almost entirely, but it's important (especially for our beloved Minsc) that he learns never to poke grumpy cornugons.
I have yet to run into any noticeable bugs, but I will report any that I come across.
I have found Beamdog's restrained conduct dignified, in view that this mobbing has been self-serving, ad hominem and unkind.
I have said on a few occasion that writing has to start from somewhere. It might not be perfect first.
Sir Ano has been panned as not a great romance, those wanting to romance a male have lamented lack of suitor choice - but the fact of having that romance option was to me the most important fact of it. (I have myself grown fond of Ano over years)
Backlash like this suggests it would have been better not to have any romanceable male at all, applied to this very canon content. If you cannot do it perfect, how dare you try new areas of writing!
I do not agree. Ano signaled, at the time, that girl gamers were taken at par. From there, for those whom like romances, great stuff has evolved from that seminal first timer. I actually laughed out loud when I first time read the word "pansexual" in context of Iron Bull, of DA:I. I thought it was charming!
But in this evolution, somewhere, there was Ano, a first for many.
So next time: let's look for a more involved trans-CHAR, and all power to you Beamdog! I believe you can evolve, as BW did. Not to mention that meta-references are another BW classic.
For the actual fans, I do not think this "I don't like it, you should not either" woe-is-me distracts that SoD is a lovely expansion. It feels like BG, and to me it has been like meeting an old friend one thought lost forever.
We have a stickied post (somewhere...) that tells people how they can best format their bug reports on Redmine to get them in to the development team. It's the best way to get bugs fixed efficiently (especially if you have a saved game where you can reliably reproduce the issue), but it's not compulsory.
Someone asked what our next update will be addressing. I know multiplayer's on the hit-list, as is the difficulty issue that's been reported by a lot of people. Beyond that, I don't know for sure; but when you go to support.baldursgate.com you can view our public Roadmap for each of the projects, which shows you which bugs we're currently working on.
Best outcome we could hope for. Glad Mizhena is getting an expanded role, at any rate, and hopefully this will lead to the game not getting bombed with so many unfair reviews. Suppose the GG's will have to go whine about some other triviality now.
they'd been regularly posting telling people how to properly report bugs. There's still a stickied thread about it.
For beta testers?
*Cough* Temple of Elemental Evil *Cough*. Speaking of which, that game would be a GREAT one for Beamdog to tackle. I'd throw my money at that.
Anyway, I digress. Well stated release. I've been lurking all over the place for the last few days, largely hoping that things would get back to a state of 'normal' where the game itself became more of the topic at hand, instead of the discussion that the release is in response to. I think the release will do a great deal of moving that forward, where the game discussion becomes the main topic in this section of the forums. That's good for all of us, in my opinion.
Silly question, but what would be the most appropriate board or thread to post my idea?
That depends.
If it's a fully formed idea that you want to pitch to Beamdog for us to maybe think about implementing, I would craft a well-organized "Feature" ticket in Redmine. (You can also just post it in the Feature Requests forum if that's easier for you, or if you want people to offer suggestions and feedback.)
If it's a story that you just want to share with the community, I would post it in Fan Creations.
If it's something that you want to see implemented and are interested in working with modders to make it happen, I would post something in the Modding forums to ask for help.
Silly question, but what would be the most appropriate board or thread to post my idea?
My view is: general discussion, as it would be for the eventual BG3 or whatever is the next full lenght game from Beamdog.
I would not want to reduce it to silly GG-style bickering, because inclusiveness of immersion - or richness or solidarity, however one wants to put it - is a topic I find of universal importance. If the world had stuck to pre-Ano romance era, I probably would not love gaming as I do.
If you are going to announce that you are changing the game, it is essential that you announce that this will be the *only* change. Some will be content with this, many others who believe the "whole game" is pushing an agenda will want much more. I would seriously consider making that addendum.
Silly question, but what would be the most appropriate board or thread to post my idea?
My view is: general discussion, as it would be for the eventual BG3 or whatever is the next full lenght game from Beamdog.
I would not want to reduce it to silly GG-style bickering, because inclusiveness of immersion - or richness or solidarity, however one wants to put it - is a topic I find of universal importance. If the world had stuck to pre-Ano romance era, I probably would not love gaming as I do.
I feel like I'm missing something in the Anomen romance. I could never stomach him long enough to get through it (EDIT: On a personal level, I mean--my characters never got along with him), but maybe it's worth struggling through.
Very good move. As someone who for the most part tends to agree w/ GG and knows what ruffles feathers with that group, I think it addresses most everyone's concerns so to those saying "they'll want more and more" I, at least, disagree. Cheers.
Ultimately, we received feedback from our community around the Minsc line and when we went back and reviewed it. The line just doesn't make the game better, it doesn't add to Minsc and it does in fact, detract from him. As such, the removal of the line was the only logical outcome. I care about making our games better and I care about our community feedback.
I was too busy playing and enjoying the expansion to notice this whole thing at first. Visiting the forums to get some information quickly revealed what was happening, however. I thought the whole thing was really unfortunate and took the focus away from the game. I never even saw the Minsc line while playing, myself, and hadn't noticed the Mizhena NPC either. I only had a vague notion about what Gamergate is about, and the whole thing just seemed to be blown totally out of proportion.
After reading through some of these threads, I agree that removing the dialogue line from Minsc is the right choice. Baldur's Gate series has many easter egg references to pop culture, and it's fine as long as they're just references. For example, I think that Larry, Darryl & Darryl are pretty silly, but I don't believe anyone can say they're derogatory. Making Minsc say something that seems to be aimed at a specific group of people wasn't the best choice, no matter what the intention was.
As for Mizhena, it's great that we're getting more depth and story out of her. I went back and talked to her after reading these forum threads, and while that small backstory gives her a bit of a personality, there's potential for a more. I really like it how pen&paper RPG's have minor characters who are made alive and interesting by a good GM, and that's possible in a CRPG also.
Great job with the expansion, Beamdog, and keep up good work! I've been playing and replaying Baldur's Gate games ever since 1998, and Siege of Dragonspear made me feel at home right from the beginning.
Honestly I would hope they would also apologize for their unprofessionalism regarding this stuff. Calling femfreq, Jezbell etc for help via social media was just really stupid. Same goes for suggesting people giving better reviews.
But I am fine otherwise with the statement. Almost no one wanted her to be removed from the game. For me it was important to A not use a minority as a token for some political statement. You can use books or letter for that and B. To learn out of this for the next time.
The Minsc stuff was stupid and just lit more oil into the fire so I think its fine that this line gets removed.
I feel like I'm missing something in the Anomen romance. I could never stomach him long enough to get through it, but maybe it's worth struggling through.
Well, I am a Finn, and while some ideas of our drinking habits are bit of a cliché, there are enough children growing with alcoholic parents that once I get the full back story of Ano, I am with him rather than against him. His bragging and grand-standing I interpret as fairly plausible counter reaction to violent, unpredictable, over-bearing father that left him with fragile self-confidence and need to assert himself.
Child psychological studies have found that children growing up in insecure homes tend to be excessively "easy," because they have learned that they cannot count on parental protection - such babies cry less, which is pretty terrible.
The turning point for me was the exchange with lord Cor, ad lib here as I more or less remember it:
Lord Cor: "You are a bug! You are an insect! You are not worthy of cowering at my feet! If you walk out of that door you are no longer my son!" Anomen: "I have been cowering at your feet all my life! Goodbye Father. Perhaps I shall see you again before you drink yourself to death."
The delivery of the latter line by Rob Paulsen (who plays Sir Ano) is really spot on - I could no longer dislike Anomen after that, I sympathized and sort of admired he was able to break free in the end. I am not saying he is likeable, but he improves and grows on you.
It's obviously fine if you'll never be able to stomach him, but as I prefer romancing males, it adds to my immersion that eventually Ano grew on me! But it took bit of effort, I admit.
Honestly I would hope they would also apologize for their unprofessionalism regarding this stuff. Calling femfreq, Jezbell etc for help via social media was just really stupid.
I've apologized for this a couple times here on the forums. The tweet you're referring to was deleted shortly after it was posted.
Honestly I would hope they would also apologize for their unprofessionalism regarding this stuff. Calling femfreq, Jezbell etc for help via social media was just really stupid.
I've apologized for this a couple times here on the forums. The tweet you're referring to was deleted shortly after it was posted.
Oh ok sorry that was one thing I did not notice. Nvm then. Good job for addressing it then.
Ultimately, we received feedback from our community around the Minsc line and when we went back and reviewed it. The line just doesn't make the game better, it doesn't add to Minsc and it does in fact, detract from him. As such, the removal of the line was the only logical outcome. I care about making our games better and I care about our community feedback.
-Trent
Well, I personally saw no need for it, as I am not such a fragile flower as a gamer as to wilt upon a single line of dialogue... however purportedly obnoxious!
However, fans like me probably rather see unnecessary discussion preempted than hard-core sticking to guns. Pillars of Eternity resolved a topic in this way, other way around maybe, but I think it was for the best.
Better still if there were no fabricated outrages, which I find this very much to be. But hey-ho, I can only endevour individually to stand up for inclusive immersion, GG fans included, to show that ethic... I still count irony fair game in this!
My Opinion on SOD: The Expansion is Completely and Utterly AWESOME ...... The Graphic update makes the Game look more Refreshed and new! The Story is both Epic and Engrossing.. I have Imported a couple of groups from BGEE and also have created a Few New Entire Party's to try out, I have Purchased BG2EE and when I complete SOD I will import these groups and start that again. I already Completed BG2 when it was originally released along with TOB but I am very excited to get back in it again with all the new additions!!! And when in done with BG2EE I'm going to get IWDEE and play that again!! Thank you BEAMDOG!! you have taken me back to 1985 in my friends Basement playing AD&D again rolling the dice.....
take the source audio of that one line, make sure it exists on only one hard drive in the entire world, take it out deep into the Canadian woods under the darkness of a new moon, burn it as an offering to Bhaal, and salt the earth to that nothing there grows ever again
Honestly I would hope they would also apologize for their unprofessionalism regarding this stuff. Calling femfreq, Jezbell etc for help via social media was just really stupid.
I've apologized for this a couple times here on the forums. The tweet you're referring to was deleted shortly after it was posted.
As someone who opted not to purchase SoD partly because of the much discussed design-decisions, I do hope the changes were mainly internal decisions as I would hate for a developer to get pressured to the point where they make design changes based on external pressure.
Moreover, I think/hope I speak for most people in the critical camp that we would prefer everyone to stay civil in their criticism.
I feel like I'm missing something in the Anomen romance. I could never stomach him long enough to get through it (EDIT: On a personal level, I mean--my characters never got along with him), but maybe it's worth struggling through.
Anomen was the first time I encountered the idea of a romance in a computer game. I admit I hadn't played much before then, but he also felt like an early example of a romance made for female players, especially when one looks at the fact that he was to only romancable male completed for the game, while three romancable women got finished.
As for the character of Anomen... well I admit, he's hard to put up with for most of the first part of the romance plot. The thing is if you can sit through all his arrogance and bragging and get to the plot of his sister's death, you really see why he's like that, and see that he's written with some very good idea of how a guy with an overly-critical parent could react.
But I also don't want to tell anyone to sit through Anomen if he really annoys them too badly. The fandom has supplied a large number of romance mods to be other options, and Beamdog came up with more to be official pick-ups for there being only one romancable male character.
Honestly I would hope they would also apologize for their unprofessionalism regarding this stuff. Calling femfreq, Jezbell etc for help via social media was just really stupid. Same goes for suggesting people giving better reviews.
Bit of human sympathy please.
The mobbing business is often anonymous and unkind, and attacks a human being for their work. Our annual performance reviews are one-on-one for a reason - and if one is privileged enough for the 360 degrees, it is guaranteed to sting.
Say Beamdog was purportedly "unprofessional" looking for ways to counter - I say mobbing is unemphatic and inhumane. Which is worse? I dislike unkindness more than unintended error, personally, for the record.
Comments
It's good to know they'll be improving / expanding the trans character.
It's also great that Boo will helping Minsc learn self-editing. I avoided the GamerGate stuff almost entirely, but it's important (especially for our beloved Minsc) that he learns never to poke grumpy cornugons.
I have yet to run into any noticeable bugs, but I will report any that I come across.
I have found Beamdog's restrained conduct dignified, in view that this mobbing has been self-serving, ad hominem and unkind.
I have said on a few occasion that writing has to start from somewhere. It might not be perfect first.
Sir Ano has been panned as not a great romance, those wanting to romance a male have lamented lack of suitor choice - but the fact of having that romance option was to me the most important fact of it. (I have myself grown fond of Ano over years)
Backlash like this suggests it would have been better not to have any romanceable male at all, applied to this very canon content. If you cannot do it perfect, how dare you try new areas of writing!
I do not agree. Ano signaled, at the time, that girl gamers were taken at par. From there, for those whom like romances, great stuff has evolved from that seminal first timer. I actually laughed out loud when I first time read the word "pansexual" in context of Iron Bull, of DA:I. I thought it was charming!
But in this evolution, somewhere, there was Ano, a first for many.
So next time: let's look for a more involved trans-CHAR, and all power to you Beamdog! I believe you can evolve, as BW did. Not to mention that meta-references are another BW classic.
For the actual fans, I do not think this "I don't like it, you should not either" woe-is-me distracts that SoD is a lovely expansion. It feels like BG, and to me it has been like meeting an old friend one thought lost forever.
So thank you Beamdog for SoD!
Silly question, but what would be the most appropriate board or thread to post my idea?
Someone asked what our next update will be addressing. I know multiplayer's on the hit-list, as is the difficulty issue that's been reported by a lot of people. Beyond that, I don't know for sure; but when you go to support.baldursgate.com you can view our public Roadmap for each of the projects, which shows you which bugs we're currently working on.
Anyway, I digress. Well stated release. I've been lurking all over the place for the last few days, largely hoping that things would get back to a state of 'normal' where the game itself became more of the topic at hand, instead of the discussion that the release is in response to. I think the release will do a great deal of moving that forward, where the game discussion becomes the main topic in this section of the forums. That's good for all of us, in my opinion.
If it's a fully formed idea that you want to pitch to Beamdog for us to maybe think about implementing, I would craft a well-organized "Feature" ticket in Redmine. (You can also just post it in the Feature Requests forum if that's easier for you, or if you want people to offer suggestions and feedback.)
If it's a story that you just want to share with the community, I would post it in Fan Creations.
If it's something that you want to see implemented and are interested in working with modders to make it happen, I would post something in the Modding forums to ask for help.
I hope that helps!
I would not want to reduce it to silly GG-style bickering, because inclusiveness of immersion - or richness or solidarity, however one wants to put it - is a topic I find of universal importance. If the world had stuck to pre-Ano romance era, I probably would not love gaming as I do.
Hope you guys know what you're doing.
I care about making our games better and I care about our community feedback.
-Trent
After reading through some of these threads, I agree that removing the dialogue line from Minsc is the right choice. Baldur's Gate series has many easter egg references to pop culture, and it's fine as long as they're just references. For example, I think that Larry, Darryl & Darryl are pretty silly, but I don't believe anyone can say they're derogatory. Making Minsc say something that seems to be aimed at a specific group of people wasn't the best choice, no matter what the intention was.
As for Mizhena, it's great that we're getting more depth and story out of her. I went back and talked to her after reading these forum threads, and while that small backstory gives her a bit of a personality, there's potential for a more. I really like it how pen&paper RPG's have minor characters who are made alive and interesting by a good GM, and that's possible in a CRPG also.
Great job with the expansion, Beamdog, and keep up good work! I've been playing and replaying Baldur's Gate games ever since 1998, and Siege of Dragonspear made me feel at home right from the beginning.
But I am fine otherwise with the statement. Almost no one wanted her to be removed from the game. For me it was important to A not use a minority as a token for some political statement. You can use books or letter for that and B. To learn out of this for the next time.
The Minsc stuff was stupid and just lit more oil into the fire so I think its fine that this line gets removed.
Child psychological studies have found that children growing up in insecure homes tend to be excessively "easy," because they have learned that they cannot count on parental protection - such babies cry less, which is pretty terrible.
The turning point for me was the exchange with lord Cor, ad lib here as I more or less remember it:
Lord Cor: "You are a bug! You are an insect! You are not worthy of cowering at my feet! If you walk out of that door you are no longer my son!"
Anomen: "I have been cowering at your feet all my life! Goodbye Father. Perhaps I shall see you again before you drink yourself to death."
The delivery of the latter line by Rob Paulsen (who plays Sir Ano) is really spot on - I could no longer dislike Anomen after that, I sympathized and sort of admired he was able to break free in the end. I am not saying he is likeable, but he improves and grows on you.
It's obviously fine if you'll never be able to stomach him, but as I prefer romancing males, it adds to my immersion that eventually Ano grew on me! But it took bit of effort, I admit.
You did amazing thing with bringing BG back and even more so with an expansion, and I hope for many more games from you.
Dee is also excellent community manager. I think you are all great!
Best,
AA
However, fans like me probably rather see unnecessary discussion preempted than hard-core sticking to guns. Pillars of Eternity resolved a topic in this way, other way around maybe, but I think it was for the best.
Better still if there were no fabricated outrages, which I find this very much to be. But hey-ho, I can only endevour individually to stand up for inclusive immersion, GG fans included, to show that ethic... I still count irony fair game in this!
And when in done with BG2EE I'm going to get IWDEE and play that again!! Thank you BEAMDOG!! you have taken me back to 1985 in my friends Basement playing AD&D again rolling the dice.....
Moreover, I think/hope I speak for most people in the critical camp that we would prefer everyone to stay civil in their criticism.
As for the character of Anomen... well I admit, he's hard to put up with for most of the first part of the romance plot. The thing is if you can sit through all his arrogance and bragging and get to the plot of his sister's death, you really see why he's like that, and see that he's written with some very good idea of how a guy with an overly-critical parent could react.
But I also don't want to tell anyone to sit through Anomen if he really annoys them too badly. The fandom has supplied a large number of romance mods to be other options, and Beamdog came up with more to be official pick-ups for there being only one romancable male character.
The mobbing business is often anonymous and unkind, and attacks a human being for their work. Our annual performance reviews are one-on-one for a reason - and if one is privileged enough for the 360 degrees, it is guaranteed to sting.
Say Beamdog was purportedly "unprofessional" looking for ways to counter - I say mobbing is unemphatic and inhumane. Which is worse? I dislike unkindness more than unintended error, personally, for the record.