From my knowledge of the subject (which is quite lacking) intersex persons live their lives as one of the genders. Only those who have a intimate and trusting relationship with the person would know that they suffer (if suffer is even the right word) from this medical condition.
It would extremely hard to write one properly to fit in a forgotten realms story as their day to day interactions wouldn't change from someone who isnt an intersex person.
Doesnt mean it can't be done beautifully in other genres however. Knights of Sidonia, a sci-fi anime on Netflix's has these types of characters (one a main) explained in its setting.
The part where CHARNAME has sexual interactions with them for whatever reason was a bit obvious, wasn't it? Or, perhaps not even that, it wouldn't be hard to write in about how they've been found out, or a certain element has caused them to be exposed or just about anything, really. You could even write in that it's willingly mentioned by the character as they see nothing wrong with it, since there isn't anything wrong with it.
Thanks for the Netflix suggestion, I'll be sure to check it out when I wake up from my nap!
The part where CHARNAME has sexual interactions with them for whatever reason was a bit obvious, wasn't it? Or, perhaps not even that, it wouldn't be hard to write in about how they've been found out, or a certain element has caused them to be exposed or just about anything, really. You could even write in that it's willingly mentioned by the character as they see nothing wrong with it, since there isn't anything wrong with it.
Thanks for the Netflix suggestion, I'll be sure to check it out when I wake up from my nap!
I dont have time to properly research this atm, but as I said, it maybe shared with someone whom you are intimate with, however, in a game with romance options, this maybe hard to create.
Every romance in the baldur's gate series (and others), the r omancable character will drop blatant hints that there is a romance option available with them. A intersex individual would probably attempt to hide the fact that they are intersexual and thus push away a player character from becoming intimate. A player character may further attempt to pursue the NPC, who may begin to drop hints to his or her condition, ending any pursuit of romance if the PC acts unkindly to the condition before a reveal.
That is a long process, and something gamer romances are not accustom too. (Want to get in their pants? just keep selecting the heart option). If this character has to be written this way, other romance options in the game would have to follow the same type of path. (No hearts, just comments that either turn a prospective romance partner on, or off with the NPC deciding if they want to enter a romance with the player character once the character selects to pursue them).
So can it be done? Sure. But it will take a lot of thought and writing, and more than a three option answers to make it realistic.
It has already been discussed that we wish for interesting , well written fantasy characters.
Very much this. Include whatever you like, as long as you write it in well. Many aspects can result in interesting characters, but writing top-down from one aspect too often just leads to a stereotype or token. On the other hand, just adding some particular aspect to a character can often feel like it's just tacked on.
It's not easy to write well, but that's why not everyone does it.
Not necessarily. You can role-play as yourself coming into the fantasy setting, using what one's self would do if put in the situation and the world setting. Which is what most people do when they play games, no? So it's not really any different.
However, if that's all you've got to say, then I'm afraid this conversation may be coming to a halt...
You don't need to spend any time researching a topic, you can just ask and I can answer the question at hand.
You're honestly making it a lot more difficult that it needs to be by focusing on what people are accustomed too. We don't get anywhere by pandering to the masses all the time. Just because people are used to simplistic variations doesn't mean you cannot make a complexed character, nor does this mean you should go back and make everyone just as complex and diverse in options. It would also kind of defeat the point of making an unusual character if you changed everyone to fit in line with them.
You all have the tools available to you to band together as a group and design a "well written fantasy character", if that is what you truly desire. So why don't you go and do it? Wasting time by complaining or critiquing something not being written "good enough" to you can simply be fixed by setting an example with your very own creation, adding bullet points or whatever system helps you get your point across; Otherwise why bother thrashing other's for their hard work with a tedious array of simplistic sentences.
You don't need to spend any time researching a topic, you can just ask and I can answer the question at hand.
You're honestly making it a lot more difficult that it needs to be by focusing on what people are accustomed too. We don't get anywhere by pandering to the masses all the time. Just because people are used to simplistic variations doesn't mean you cannot make a complexed character, nor does this mean you should go back and make everyone just as complex and diverse in options. It would also kind of defeat the point of making an unusual character if you changed everyone to fit in line with them.
Questions: Is there any intersex individuals already canon in the forgotten realms setting that isn't a divine being? In what regions of Toril would these people be accepted the most/ shunned the most? Currently, in today's society, medical practitioners attempt to normalize intersex individuals through surgeries and other treatments. Would this still apply in the forgotten realm setting, or would toril's society be accepting to them?
You don't want to just info dump the information onto the player and prevent the shoehorn argument. The biological condition can shape how the character acts/reacts however it shouldn't define them. We are all complex and diverse, but we attempt to relate and connect to others in every type of relationship we have. If you can't find that connection, the character can feel forced, so you need to devlop the character beyond who they are. But if you give one character that much attention, it may make them stand out too much and once again they will feel out of place until you develop all the characters the same way.
Answers: 1: Not to my knowledge, though that is subject to being wrong, since Forgotten Realms is a big setting.
2: I would naturally assume Elven lands or ventures alone and has their own hut in a forest somewhere, away from standard civilisation is the first thought that comes to mind. You could, if you wanted too, even make the character any form of mythical being to aid making it interesting, them being intersexed shouldn't be the focus, but it should be a focus somewhere along the lines.
As an example; a Gooey humanoid that happens to have multiple sex organs. This being that Goo-forms obviously aren't going to be versed in the ways of humanity, so the character would have tried to develop a close-approximation of what being "human-like" is. Since they wouldn't know about the heavy inner workings of a humanoid being and the discerns of Gender-Construct, it would just be a Gender-Neutral entity attempting to assimilate based on knowledge, thus opening the character to a logical-but-naive sense, willing to learn and also add a fair bit of humour into the awkward situations this character might find themselves in.
3: I assume it would be accepted to some degree, it would still be treated as an uncommon situation and people would be naturally reluctant to understand it.
Of course, you need to take time delving into things, throwing an entire life-story at someone in an instant can puzzle and lose the point entirely. I find that characters stand out amongst their peers usually when you focus too much on one thing and make it very one-tracked and develop too big a backstory that does not coincide with previous material. It's not about putting others in line to the character, it's making the character in line with the existence of their fantasy would-be peers and the setting they are allocated into.
An intersexed characters backstory would most likely be all about their experiences and trying to understand their struggles going through life, all subject to their idea formed on either a previous grim scenario or the idea that they themselves feel they do not belong, there are all kinds of directions one can take with character development and it's difficult to set down one straight-forward idea. These are mainly just templates to aid in understanding, rather than how it should be done.
"You all have the tools available to you to band together as a group and design a "well written fantasy character", if that is what you truly desire. So why don't you go and do it? Wasting time by complaining or critiquing something not being written "good enough" to you can simply be fixed by setting an example with your very own creation, adding bullet points or whatever system helps you get your point across; Otherwise why bother thrashing other's for their hard work with a tedious array of simplistic sentences."
This is quite an ignorant statement for a few reasons:
1. We do not get PAID to write characters. I do not have the time to write stories because I do something different for a living that takes up all of my time. I am a consumer of this type of media, not a creator of it. The creators get paid to provide a service that people want. The fans are the ones that pay their wages, so if they decide to annoy the fans, that could ultimately be a month's rent missed. This is why it's our job to provide constructive criticism, which leads me onto my next point....
2a. Are you seriously suggesting criticism is bad? Really? Critique is ENCOURAGED! The devs themselves have asked for it! They need it because they need to constantly be on the same wavelength as their fans. They need to constantly improve as a team so they are able to meet the increasingly high standards of the consumer. This is the same in any industry. That isn't even just to impress customers. They have to compete with the high standards of other companies as well. What kind of dev would make a product and say "Ah, this is perfect! Yep, nothing needs correcting here " Would you want them working for you? Of course you wouldn't, because they aren't learning.
2b. I'm not going to refrain from criticizing somebody's work because I may hurt their feelings. Maybe you have a safe space somewhere, but in the corporate world, there are no safe spaces. You get criticized every day of your life. If you can't handle it, then you are in the wrong job. If you work hard to produce something that isn't up to par, I still shouldn't have to pretend it isn't. Maybe we should all settle for poor games in that case? Since we're not allowed to criticize those who work hard......
3. Storywriting is a lot more than a group of people brainstorming. It takes passion. It takes not just the conception of an idea, but a whole living and breathing world around it. It has to be felt by the person writing it, as people can tell how much heart went into a character's development. You can't fake it or force it. This is the whole point. Not everyone can be a great writer, and there is a lack of great writing in games right now. Some of that has to do with politics, and it is completely unacceptable. That's why the majority of us want the focus take off identity politics and onto good characters, letting the story flow and dictate what a character becomes.
4. Going by your logic, you should probably write your own intersex character, instead of posting your concerns on the forum.
Don't know if it has been said yet (too lazy to go through all these posts >.>) but there already are several intersex characters. Beholders are intersex, pretty sure Illithids are as well. Corellon Larethian is as far as I can tell only very androgynous, but I wouldn't be suprised if he's actually intersex or has at least an intersex form (like the Hindu god Shiva, for example). I am also pretty sure that most Angels are either intersex or sexless (though technically, they are made of energy so who knows ...)
So for actual named characters you got the Spectator (love that guy), Sendai's Illithid servant (I forgot his name and can't find it ... Mithikil or something?) and possibly Solar and Corellon.
I know, strong androginy and sexless are not the same thing as intersex, but it's a step in the same direction, so to speak, imo. (Please don't flame me >.>)
When will we get an overt victimized cis crying about everything in game? Given how vocal they are it is a crime that they are not represented!
Aren't intersex people who are happy with being intersex technically cis as well ...? I mean, cis simply means that your gender and your sex match up, right?
If you believe money is the prime incentive for why people do creative writing, you are sorely mistaken and your argument need not go any further than that.
Please do quote the part where I said criticising things was bad and people should refrain from it. Please, please, by all means, find where I said that or even remotely hinted at that being the angle I was taking. Since you've just gone on an entire tangent about something you've misread, I can only assume a nerve has been struck.
There is a huge, huge difference between constructive criticism and just being a straight-up rude and insensitive douche-bag, the latter of which I was referring to, since I used the term "thrashing". Healthy, solid critiquing is required if somebody needs to improve on their work. Emphasis on healthy.
Sorry, what? Now you're just throwing about senseless presumptions. How do you know I don't have an intersex character in the works, exactly? Why do you think I made this Poll... I mentioned I was looking for feedback on what people thought about intersex characters existing within the setting of The Forgotten Realms. Now why do you think I would be doing that? Oh, that's right, because I just so happen to be planning on making such a character and I was initially interested in seeing what people's immediate response would be.
However, my point still stands solid. Make a character yourselves, write all of it up as a draft, present it as evidence to suggest someone else's writing has been done in poor taste and show everyone how it's "really done". You must all be capable of such a feat, right? You all claim to be of such an expertise platform that this should be a piece of cake for any of you. Wouldn't take you more than, say, half an hour to possibly an hour. You can spare enough time to type up a few sentences of critique and argue for long periods of time, then you absolutely have free time to make a character draft and show everyone how it's all done. To call such an act of practicality ignorant, is, well... Ignorant.
The irony of your entire statement is that you try to call me out on being ignorant, when I am blatantly not of any ignorant view, whilst also being incredibly ignorant yourself. Funny how the coin spins on the table.
I do apologise for connecting the posts, however I dislike double posting, please forgive me for adding you into this comment, it is intended to be separated.
That's quite an interesting amount of information, thank you for adding your piece.
Do you have any sources directed at Beholders & Illithid's being intersex?
Whilst androgyny is great, however, it is not the same as being intersex, but I do agree that it is a step in the right direction to include such things.
As far as I am aware, Cis/Intersexed/Trans are the "Sex Labels". So, they are not here nor there. Essentially, they exist as an in betwixt the two, an intersex person has the opportunity to choose which is comfortable to go towards, should they feel the need to be Cis/Trans or stay Intersex. Again, this is purely on my understanding of the subject, thus, available to be corrected should I stand wrongly.
As mentioned before, there are surgeries done at birth that "correct" a person whom is intersex, which is insanely wrong to perform. Especially since it's a surgery, there's no known (as far as I am aware) issue with being born with different sex organs and/or genitalia that do "not match-up", so the surgery is only done for Society Construct reasons that the Doctor/Surgeon deems appropriate.
Oh damn, I'd have to do some more research on that, but I know I found out about Beholders and Ilithids being intersex way back when I tried to find out how they reproduce (I swear it was just for curiosity's sake >.>). I know it was mentioned in a specific book, but I don't remember which one, so let me do some digging on that (though I can't promise that I'll find it again).
As for the subject of "correcting" intersex, I don't think it's inherently wrong, but hear me out on this first. We live in a world full of super judgemental and prejudice people. I am certain that a lot of intersexual people who did not get a sex change as infants suffer greatly from how people treat them. If you give your child a sexchange for the sake of saving them from such herassment, it's certainly sad, but imo understandable.
I believe every person should be allowed to be happy no matter what labels they have attatched to themselves, but reality is sadly not as kind.
I do apologise with tasking you with such an ordeal, I thought you might have the sources at the ready, you do not have to go through such troubles on my part, truth be told.
(Yes... Yes I'm sure it was all harmless research, Butter. I'm suuuure...)
No, no, I understand entirely. I was speaking more from a level of "in an equal and just world...". You are, unfortunately, correct in that reality is nowhere near as kind.
@Icecreamtub Even more irony is that you just straw manned the entire point that I was making. I feel like you are purposely trying to misrepresent every point made against you in this thread, and that is why you will find it difficult to get your voice heard because you have shut your mind off to alternate points of view.
I don't see how you could possibly argue against "The writing deserves to be top-notch" but you have managed to find a way, and that suggests to me that isn't your main priority, and your main priority is actually identity politics and not a well-written narrative. That is exactly why your approach will fail, I'm afraid.
"I deserve someone who is just like me, and I want it no matter what." is basically what you are saying. What you don't realize is that the devs in Beamdog have already admitted that isn't the best way to include diverse characters.
No one is claiming to be an expert in creative writing. What on Earth are you talking about? What we are saying is that there should be experts writing the story for games. It's their job to do it, so they should do it well. If money isn't a motivating factor, then why on Earth do devs get paid so much money? Surely they are happy to do it out of the goodness of their heart, right? Of course not. They are selling their skills. If you are paying a heavy premium for someone to write you a story, but your fans are still getting pissed off at a lackluster product, you're not getting any bang for your buck, are you? There are plenty of passionate and world-class writers that get little no exposure who would kill for the opportunities some of these people get. Some of these Kotaku-pandering devs have absolute no business being anywhere near the creative core of a video game.
By the way, who is condoning being rude and trolling? Has anyone in this thread tried to do that? If anything, we all agree that isn't acceptable. What most of us are saying (INCLUDING the devs) is that constructive criticism, no matter how much it may appear to tear apart somebody's work, is always welcome. David Gaider has even said this. I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about, right?
Your point about writing our own characters is so ridiculous, I think even you know it is. It doesn't even make any sense. Why would I write characters for Beamdog or any developer when they already have people to do that? How do you know I even have the skills to even begin to do that? Being able to identify a good story and being able to write one are NOT the same. That is why I don't do it for a living. That is why I'm a fan just giving criticisms like everyone else. It's up to the devs to take little bits of criticism from the public and combine it into something useful.
If you are writing an intersex character, good for you. I'll say this time and time again until it sinks in: as long as it is written well, nobody cares. Nobody that matters, that is. All that people care about is a good story and loveable characters. Most people are not concerned with sexuality and gender, and don't see it as a huge factor in how we gravitate towards certain characters. Do you want people to love a character just for being intersex? Is that what you're looking for?
You seem to have completely missed the part where I intentionally kept my post as short as possible.
Unlike you, I honestly don't have time to argue about stuff days on end.
You can take this as a "win", if you must, but I cannot be any more blunt with the fact I read absolutely nothing you just wrote, aided by the time spent giving a reply to when you posted.
@Icecreamtub Your last post to me was not short, and I rebutted it in full because I had to address several points you made.
If you have no interest in having a constructive dialogue about these matters, I don't know why you bothered replying to me the first time. You were naive to just expect me to flip to your point of view and not say another word about it.
In the end, you will lose anyway because people are tired of closed-minded individuals expecting everyone else to think the same as them and being called wrong for not doing so. If you are going to insist on taking this stubborn position, don't expect to get anything you want in the future.
You all have the tools available to you to band together as a group and design a "well written fantasy character", if that is what you truly desire. So why don't you go and do it? Wasting time by complaining or critiquing something not being written "good enough" to you can simply be fixed by setting an example with your very own creation, adding bullet points or whatever system helps you get your point across; Otherwise why bother thrashing other's for their hard work with a tedious array of simplistic sentences.
@Icecreamtub First, I did not trash anyone. In fact, I haven't even played SoD yet (I want to finish ToSC content first), and the controversy itself makes me want to play it even more. My intent on saying "we want well written characters" was not to criticize what has already been done, but rather the habit of marketing research being more important . I mean, if you're writing a BGsequel, reasearch is already done for you "it's Fantasy, it's Forgotten Realms, it's BG and its wonderful characters. SURPRISE US".
That's what writers and artists do, they don't really show us what we want to see, they want to shows us something pleasurable and unexpected. Of course It could involve intersex, as I'm sure that Faerun is a very diverse scenario.
However, I don't think that "why don't you go and do it" is a valid argument. I'm quite sure I could write a cool fanfic , in fact I love drawing and illustrating my bg characters, writing their biographies and such... but if someone criticised the work of a plastic surgeon , would you say "do it yourself"? He's the surgeon, not me.
It's the same for writers, he's the writer and I'm the player.As long as I respect someone's work I have the right to criticise it because I'm doing it constructively, not out of spite.
@Icecreamtub Event ore irony is that you just straw manned the entire point that I was making. I feel like you are purposely trying to misrepresent every point made against you in this thread, and that is why you will find it difficult to get your voice heard because you have shut your mind off to alternate points of view.
I don't see how you could possibly argue against "The writing deserves to be top-notch" but you have managed to find a way, and that suggests to me that isn't your main priority, and your main priority is actually identity politics and not a well-written narrative. That is exactly why your approach will fail, I'm afraid.
"I deserve someone who is just like me, and I want it no matter what." is basically what you are saying. What you don't realize is that the devs in Beamdog have already admitted that isn't the best way to include diverse characters.
No one is claiming to be an expert in creative writing. What on Earth are you talking about? What we are saying is that there should be experts writing the story for games. It's their job to do it, so they should do it well. If money isn't a motivating factor, then why on Earth do devs get paid so much money? Surely they are happy to do it out of the goodness of their heart, right? Of course not. They are selling their skills. If you are paying a heavy premium for someone to write you a story, but your fans are still getting pissed off at a lackluster product, you're not getting any bang for your buck, are you? There are plenty of passionate and world-class writers that get little no exposure who would kill for the opportunities some of these people get. Some of these Kotaku-pandering devs have absolute no business being anywhere near the creative core of a video game.
By the way, who is condoning being rude and trolling? Has anyone in this thread tried to do that? If anything, we all agree that isn't acceptable. What most of us are saying (INCLUDING the devs) is that constructive criticism, no matter how much it may appear to tear apart somebody's work, is always welcome. David Gaider has even said this. I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about, right?
Your point about writing our own characters is so ridiculous, I think even you know it is. It doesn't even make any sense. Why would I write characters for Beamdog or any developer when they already have people to do that? How do you know I even have the skills to even begin to do that? Being able to identify a good story and being able to write one are NOT the same. That is why I don't do it for a living. That is why I'm a fan just giving criticisms like everyone else. It's up to the devs to take little bits of criticism from the public and combine it into something useful.
If you are writing an intersex character, good for you. I'll say this time and time again until it sinks in: as long as it is written well, nobody cares. Nobody that matters, that is. All that people care about is a good story and loveable characters. Most people are not concerned with sexuality and gender, and don't see it as a huge factor in how we gravitate towards certain characters. Do you want people to love a character just for being intersex? Is that what you're looking for?
Who says the devs get paid "so muh money?" And you are NOT paying a heavy premium here. If $20 for over 100, 000 words is a heavy premium the you really need to adjust that.
I have not seen one person who believes this entire work is lackluster. Not one well-written, un biased critique has came to this conclusion. Feel free to post a link to one for me, if you disagree.
Everything else is opinion on how a game should be written. It is your choice to purchase it or not.
Oh hey look, yet another comment from you trying to insult me.
You're on a roll today, huh?
A good way to intentionally have Threads closed, how scheming of you. You know you can just request having Threads closed rather than hurling insults, right? Well, you do now.
Comments
It would extremely hard to write one properly to fit in a forgotten realms story as their day to day interactions wouldn't change from someone who isnt an intersex person.
Doesnt mean it can't be done beautifully in other genres however. Knights of Sidonia, a sci-fi anime on Netflix's has these types of characters (one a main) explained in its setting.
Thanks for the Netflix suggestion, I'll be sure to check it out when I wake up from my nap!
Every romance in the baldur's gate series (and others), the r omancable character will drop blatant hints that there is a romance option available with them. A intersex individual would probably attempt to hide the fact that they are intersexual and thus push away a player character from becoming intimate. A player character may further attempt to pursue the NPC, who may begin to drop hints to his or her condition, ending any pursuit of romance if the PC acts unkindly to the condition before a reveal.
That is a long process, and something gamer romances are not accustom too. (Want to get in their pants? just keep selecting the heart option). If this character has to be written this way, other romance options in the game would have to follow the same type of path. (No hearts, just comments that either turn a prospective romance partner on, or off with the NPC deciding if they want to enter a romance with the player character once the character selects to pursue them).
So can it be done? Sure. But it will take a lot of thought and writing, and more than a three option answers to make it realistic.
It's not easy to write well, but that's why not everyone does it.
Just a thought.....
Not necessarily. You can role-play as yourself coming into the fantasy setting, using what one's self would do if put in the situation and the world setting. Which is what most people do when they play games, no? So it's not really any different.
However, if that's all you've got to say, then I'm afraid this conversation may be coming to a halt...
You don't need to spend any time researching a topic, you can just ask and I can answer the question at hand.
You're honestly making it a lot more difficult that it needs to be by focusing on what people are accustomed too. We don't get anywhere by pandering to the masses all the time. Just because people are used to simplistic variations doesn't mean you cannot make a complexed character, nor does this mean you should go back and make everyone just as complex and diverse in options. It would also kind of defeat the point of making an unusual character if you changed everyone to fit in line with them.
You all have the tools available to you to band together as a group and design a "well written fantasy character", if that is what you truly desire. So why don't you go and do it? Wasting time by complaining or critiquing something not being written "good enough" to you can simply be fixed by setting an example with your very own creation, adding bullet points or whatever system helps you get your point across; Otherwise why bother thrashing other's for their hard work with a tedious array of simplistic sentences.
Is there any intersex individuals already canon in the forgotten realms setting that isn't a divine being?
In what regions of Toril would these people be accepted the most/ shunned the most?
Currently, in today's society, medical practitioners attempt to normalize intersex individuals through surgeries and other treatments. Would this still apply in the forgotten realm setting, or would toril's society be accepting to them?
You don't want to just info dump the information onto the player and prevent the shoehorn argument. The biological condition can shape how the character acts/reacts however it shouldn't define them. We are all complex and diverse, but we attempt to relate and connect to others in every type of relationship we have. If you can't find that connection, the character can feel forced, so you need to devlop the character beyond who they are. But if you give one character that much attention, it may make them stand out too much and once again they will feel out of place until you develop all the characters the same way.
I hope that made sense.
It made perfect sense, to me.
Answers:
1: Not to my knowledge, though that is subject to being wrong, since Forgotten Realms is a big setting.
2: I would naturally assume Elven lands or ventures alone and has their own hut in a forest somewhere, away from standard civilisation is the first thought that comes to mind. You could, if you wanted too, even make the character any form of mythical being to aid making it interesting, them being intersexed shouldn't be the focus, but it should be a focus somewhere along the lines.
As an example; a Gooey humanoid that happens to have multiple sex organs. This being that Goo-forms obviously aren't going to be versed in the ways of humanity, so the character would have tried to develop a close-approximation of what being "human-like" is. Since they wouldn't know about the heavy inner workings of a humanoid being and the discerns of Gender-Construct, it would just be a Gender-Neutral entity attempting to assimilate based on knowledge, thus opening the character to a logical-but-naive sense, willing to learn and also add a fair bit of humour into the awkward situations this character might find themselves in.
3: I assume it would be accepted to some degree, it would still be treated as an uncommon situation and people would be naturally reluctant to understand it.
Of course, you need to take time delving into things, throwing an entire life-story at someone in an instant can puzzle and lose the point entirely. I find that characters stand out amongst their peers usually when you focus too much on one thing and make it very one-tracked and develop too big a backstory that does not coincide with previous material. It's not about putting others in line to the character, it's making the character in line with the existence of their fantasy would-be peers and the setting they are allocated into.
An intersexed characters backstory would most likely be all about their experiences and trying to understand their struggles going through life, all subject to their idea formed on either a previous grim scenario or the idea that they themselves feel they do not belong, there are all kinds of directions one can take with character development and it's difficult to set down one straight-forward idea. These are mainly just templates to aid in understanding, rather than how it should be done.
"You all have the tools available to you to band together as a group and design a "well written fantasy character", if that is what you truly desire. So why don't you go and do it? Wasting time by complaining or critiquing something not being written "good enough" to you can simply be fixed by setting an example with your very own creation, adding bullet points or whatever system helps you get your point across; Otherwise why bother thrashing other's for their hard work with a tedious array of simplistic sentences."
This is quite an ignorant statement for a few reasons:
1. We do not get PAID to write characters. I do not have the time to write stories because I do something different for a living that takes up all of my time. I am a consumer of this type of media, not a creator of it. The creators get paid to provide a service that people want. The fans are the ones that pay their wages, so if they decide to annoy the fans, that could ultimately be a month's rent missed. This is why it's our job to provide constructive criticism, which leads me onto my next point....
2a. Are you seriously suggesting criticism is bad? Really? Critique is ENCOURAGED! The devs themselves have asked for it! They need it because they need to constantly be on the same wavelength as their fans. They need to constantly improve as a team so they are able to meet the increasingly high standards of the consumer. This is the same in any industry. That isn't even just to impress customers. They have to compete with the high standards of other companies as well. What kind of dev would make a product and say "Ah, this is perfect! Yep, nothing needs correcting here
2b. I'm not going to refrain from criticizing somebody's work because I may hurt their feelings. Maybe you have a safe space somewhere, but in the corporate world, there are no safe spaces. You get criticized every day of your life. If you can't handle it, then you are in the wrong job. If you work hard to produce something that isn't up to par, I still shouldn't have to pretend it isn't. Maybe we should all settle for poor games in that case? Since we're not allowed to criticize those who work hard......
3. Storywriting is a lot more than a group of people brainstorming. It takes passion. It takes not just the conception of an idea, but a whole living and breathing world around it. It has to be felt by the person writing it, as people can tell how much heart went into a character's development. You can't fake it or force it. This is the whole point. Not everyone can be a great writer, and there is a lack of great writing in games right now. Some of that has to do with politics, and it is completely unacceptable. That's why the majority of us want the focus take off identity politics and onto good characters, letting the story flow and dictate what a character becomes.
4. Going by your logic, you should probably write your own intersex character, instead of posting your concerns on the forum.
So for actual named characters you got the Spectator (love that guy), Sendai's Illithid servant (I forgot his name and can't find it ... Mithikil or something?) and possibly Solar and Corellon.
I know, strong androginy and sexless are not the same thing as intersex, but it's a step in the same direction, so to speak, imo. (Please don't flame me >.>) Aren't intersex people who are happy with being intersex technically cis as well ...?
I mean, cis simply means that your gender and your sex match up, right?
If you believe money is the prime incentive for why people do creative writing, you are sorely mistaken and your argument need not go any further than that.
Please do quote the part where I said criticising things was bad and people should refrain from it.
Please, please, by all means, find where I said that or even remotely hinted at that being the angle I was taking.
Since you've just gone on an entire tangent about something you've misread, I can only assume a nerve has been struck.
There is a huge, huge difference between constructive criticism and just being a straight-up rude and insensitive douche-bag, the latter of which I was referring to, since I used the term "thrashing". Healthy, solid critiquing is required if somebody needs to improve on their work. Emphasis on healthy.
Sorry, what? Now you're just throwing about senseless presumptions. How do you know I don't have an intersex character in the works, exactly? Why do you think I made this Poll... I mentioned I was looking for feedback on what people thought about intersex characters existing within the setting of The Forgotten Realms. Now why do you think I would be doing that? Oh, that's right, because I just so happen to be planning on making such a character and I was initially interested in seeing what people's immediate response would be.
However, my point still stands solid. Make a character yourselves, write all of it up as a draft, present it as evidence to suggest someone else's writing has been done in poor taste and show everyone how it's "really done".
You must all be capable of such a feat, right? You all claim to be of such an expertise platform that this should be a piece of cake for any of you. Wouldn't take you more than, say, half an hour to possibly an hour. You can spare enough time to type up a few sentences of critique and argue for long periods of time, then you absolutely have free time to make a character draft and show everyone how it's all done. To call such an act of practicality ignorant, is, well... Ignorant.
The irony of your entire statement is that you try to call me out on being ignorant, when I am blatantly not of any ignorant view, whilst also being incredibly ignorant yourself. Funny how the coin spins on the table.
@Buttercheese
That's quite an interesting amount of information, thank you for adding your piece.
Do you have any sources directed at Beholders & Illithid's being intersex?
Whilst androgyny is great, however, it is not the same as being intersex, but I do agree that it is a step in the right direction to include such things.
As far as I am aware, Cis/Intersexed/Trans are the "Sex Labels". So, they are not here nor there. Essentially, they exist as an in betwixt the two, an intersex person has the opportunity to choose which is comfortable to go towards, should they feel the need to be Cis/Trans or stay Intersex. Again, this is purely on my understanding of the subject, thus, available to be corrected should I stand wrongly.
As mentioned before, there are surgeries done at birth that "correct" a person whom is intersex, which is insanely wrong to perform. Especially since it's a surgery, there's no known (as far as I am aware) issue with being born with different sex organs and/or genitalia that do "not match-up", so the surgery is only done for Society Construct reasons that the Doctor/Surgeon deems appropriate.
As for the subject of "correcting" intersex, I don't think it's inherently wrong, but hear me out on this first.
We live in a world full of super judgemental and prejudice people. I am certain that a lot of intersexual people who did not get a sex change as infants suffer greatly from how people treat them. If you give your child a sexchange for the sake of saving them from such herassment, it's certainly sad, but imo understandable.
I believe every person should be allowed to be happy no matter what labels they have attatched to themselves, but reality is sadly not as kind.
(Yes... Yes I'm sure it was all harmless research, Butter. I'm suuuure...)
No, no, I understand entirely. I was speaking more from a level of "in an equal and just world...".
You are, unfortunately, correct in that reality is nowhere near as kind.
I don't see how you could possibly argue against "The writing deserves to be top-notch" but you have managed to find a way, and that suggests to me that isn't your main priority, and your main priority is actually identity politics and not a well-written narrative. That is exactly why your approach will fail, I'm afraid.
"I deserve someone who is just like me, and I want it no matter what." is basically what you are saying. What you don't realize is that the devs in Beamdog have already admitted that isn't the best way to include diverse characters.
No one is claiming to be an expert in creative writing. What on Earth are you talking about? What we are saying is that there should be experts writing the story for games. It's their job to do it, so they should do it well. If money isn't a motivating factor, then why on Earth do devs get paid so much money? Surely they are happy to do it out of the goodness of their heart, right? Of course not. They are selling their skills. If you are paying a heavy premium for someone to write you a story, but your fans are still getting pissed off at a lackluster product, you're not getting any bang for your buck, are you? There are plenty of passionate and world-class writers that get little no exposure who would kill for the opportunities some of these people get. Some of these Kotaku-pandering devs have absolute no business being anywhere near the creative core of a video game.
By the way, who is condoning being rude and trolling? Has anyone in this thread tried to do that? If anything, we all agree that isn't acceptable. What most of us are saying (INCLUDING the devs) is that constructive criticism, no matter how much it may appear to tear apart somebody's work, is always welcome. David Gaider has even said this. I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about, right?
Your point about writing our own characters is so ridiculous, I think even you know it is. It doesn't even make any sense. Why would I write characters for Beamdog or any developer when they already have people to do that? How do you know I even have the skills to even begin to do that? Being able to identify a good story and being able to write one are NOT the same. That is why I don't do it for a living. That is why I'm a fan just giving criticisms like everyone else. It's up to the devs to take little bits of criticism from the public and combine it into something useful.
If you are writing an intersex character, good for you. I'll say this time and time again until it sinks in: as long as it is written well, nobody cares. Nobody that matters, that is. All that people care about is a good story and loveable characters. Most people are not concerned with sexuality and gender, and don't see it as a huge factor in how we gravitate towards certain characters. Do you want people to love a character just for being intersex? Is that what you're looking for?
You seem to have completely missed the part where I intentionally kept my post as short as possible.
Unlike you, I honestly don't have time to argue about stuff days on end.
You can take this as a "win", if you must, but I cannot be any more blunt with the fact I read absolutely nothing you just wrote, aided by the time spent giving a reply to when you posted.
If you have no interest in having a constructive dialogue about these matters, I don't know why you bothered replying to me the first time. You were naive to just expect me to flip to your point of view and not say another word about it.
In the end, you will lose anyway because people are tired of closed-minded individuals expecting everyone else to think the same as them and being called wrong for not doing so. If you are going to insist on taking this stubborn position, don't expect to get anything you want in the future.
Have a nice day.
First, I did not trash anyone. In fact, I haven't even played SoD yet (I want to finish ToSC content first), and the controversy itself makes me want to play it even more. My intent on saying "we want well written characters" was not to criticize what has already been done, but rather the habit of marketing research being more important . I mean, if you're writing a BGsequel, reasearch is already done for you "it's Fantasy, it's Forgotten Realms, it's BG and its wonderful characters. SURPRISE US".
That's what writers and artists do, they don't really show us what we want to see, they want to shows us something pleasurable and unexpected. Of course It could involve intersex, as I'm sure that Faerun is a very diverse scenario.
However, I don't think that "why don't you go and do it" is a valid argument. I'm quite sure I could write a cool fanfic , in fact I love drawing and illustrating my bg characters, writing their biographies and such... but if someone criticised the work of a plastic surgeon , would you say "do it yourself"? He's the surgeon, not me.
It's the same for writers, he's the writer and I'm the player.As long as I respect someone's work I have the right to criticise it because I'm doing it constructively, not out of spite.
If you're going to misread what I wrote, why even bother replying...
At any rate, and for anyone else who walks in here:
Stop trying to cause arguments and discuss the Thread.
I have not seen one person who believes this entire work is lackluster. Not one well-written, un biased critique has came to this conclusion. Feel free to post a link to one for me, if you disagree.
Everything else is opinion on how a game should be written. It is your choice to purchase it or not.
Still won't be changing it.
Give up, I don't want to hear your rude opinions. I also won't lose any sleep over them, either.
Do you have anything of real value to talk about?
You're on a roll today, huh?
A good way to intentionally have Threads closed, how scheming of you. You know you can just request having Threads closed rather than hurling insults, right? Well, you do now.
Not to say I told you so but I literally did.
But whatever, the Thread has served it's purpose and I've gotten enough feedback to brace myself for the future.