@Anduine to be clear, David Gaider was a member of the team that originally created ToB. Ascension was kind of his way of fixing the more problematic areas of the game's final chapter.
@Anduine to be clear, David Gaider was a member of the team that originally created ToB. Ascension was kind of his way of fixing the more problematic areas of the game's final chapter.
To request clarification, was he a member of the original team while he designed the mod? I have to assume the answer is no, or the mod would be an official patch released by Black Isle.
No, he created the mod because he was dissatisfied with the content in the expansion (as were most people). The expansion's timeline was too short to give the game the ending that it deserved, so he worked with some of the forum members to create Ascension.
I do not play or install mods made by random individuals who's authorization and/or credentials are alien to me, regardless of their content.
To each their own obviously, but this approach has always surprised me. The way I see it, the only real way for an individual to determine if a mod makes the game better or worse is to try it. It's not like there's any divine magic about the original developers that made their every decision in terms of content, writing, balance, etc an optimal, unimprovable call that is bound to make the game worse if tweaked.
In all likelihood, some people in the modding community have greater insight into the game than the people in the original development team - both in terms of engine mechanics and, after more than a decade of extremely thorough testing, also the overall game flow and balance. In all likelihood, some mod makers have writing skills comparable to the people who did the writing for the game, qualified and authorized as they may be. It just comes across as a sort of close-minded way into the game experience to knock everything that isn't "official" without even checking it out.
No, he created the mod because he was dissatisfied with the content in the expansion (as were most people). The expansion's timeline was too short to give the game the ending that it deserved, so he worked with some of the forum members to create Ascension.
In which case, I do not recognize Ascension as an essential part of the game, even if the work he did was more in the removal of errors as opposed to the addition of content and/or interference with the story. Then again, as some know, I am a bit of a "purist."
The problem I see is that long years of playing BG2 and ToB I had NO idea that there was something as ascension mod. So yes, people should not be forced to play mods mandatory, but they (at least the most important/popular ones) could be mentioned somewhere. In the main menu maybe (not gonna happen, but still...)
I have not voted yet... I have a bias if you read the ReadMe:P But I will say that @CamDawg is correct, this was content based on forum posters. A team was assembled at IEEAIS and the mod was created with DG in the lead. The Sarevok/Imoen banters are already in there... they are just speeded up since most players never see them with ToB being so short.
Just so everyone is clear on what is being asked here, this is for Ascension. The "Improved Battles" were created before "Ascension" and Wes is the one who packaged them all up together with WeiDU into the current mod package. Voting for the extra battles is fine too though. Some of them are quite good and would be a worthy addition with some tweaks.
Ascension does the following with regards to gameplay: - Sarevok recognizes if you still have his sword, and if you give it to him it regains some of its former power making it a worthy ToB sword. - Balthazar is a good guy! He can be convinced to either commit suicide or join you in your final fight. The battle against him can be avoided with this mod. - Melissan brings back Irenicus from the Abyss... good fight that. - Irenicus calls upon Bodhi... who can be persuaded to join with an evil party in the final battle. - Melissan brings back the 'Five' Bhaalspawn that you have slain instead of those silly demons only. *Unless you have Balthazar in your party for this fight. - Player can gain new Bhaalspawn powers for the final fight. These alone can get you through this fight if you are clever and careful. Melissan still does summon demons, but one of your new powers allows you to control them too. During QA, I had an army of her demons on my side totally 57 at one time. - Two new epilogues written for the two new joinables: Bodhi (Quitch) and Balthazar (*grin)
There may be a few more minor tweaks that I am forgetting, will dig through the original package if and when something is considered:D
To each their own obviously, but this approach has always surprised me. The way I see it, the only real way for an individual to determine if a mod makes the game better or worse is to try it. It's not like there's any divine magic about the original developers that made their every decision in terms of content, writing, balance, etc an optimal, unimprovable call that is bound to make the game worse if tweaked.
In all likelihood, some people in the modding community have greater insight into the game than the people in the original development team - both in terms of engine mechanics and, after more than a decade of extremely thorough testing, also the overall game flow and balance.
It's been my experience that most mods don't have any game balance and are actually game breaking which is why I don't use them. I only wish that modders could actually balance their mods instead of putting in kewl phat loot or some other game breaking balancing stuff.
@Metal_Hurlant The thing is, there's no masterplan of supreme balance in the vanilla games to begin with, never was. Some classes/kits are more useful than others. Some items are notoriously overpowered. Some spells are so good you want to pop them over and over, while others are so useless they're basically a waste of a spell slot. Some encounters are meant to be challenging but can be cheesed or exploited like there's no tomorrow. And there are mods to address each one of these issues and many more.
It's really the result of years of community playtesting bringing about balance where there was a lack of it. Of course, some mods are unbalanced or just poorly made as well, but as said, you need to try them to find out.
It's really the result of years of community playtesting bringing about balance where there was a lack of it. Of course, some mods are unbalanced or just poorly made as well, but as said, you need to try them to find out.
I've tried a lot of the mods and pretty much all the mods I've tried were unbalanced which is why I don't use them. TBH I don't understand why modders will create a mod and then add game breaking things to it which makes NPCs, items or anything else OP.
For instance, why create a mod that allows NPCs to use (usually OP) items that they can't use in Vanilla BG? I've heard modders say we're creating a mod that's going to rely on tactics, but then they introduce game breaking items or change the NPCs which throws that balance out the window.
If you're happy with those mods, then that's great. I'd rather not play them.
I don't know if it should be a mandatory install, but at least included in the BG2:EE download would be nice.
Definitely tone it down a bit, though, if you're going to do that. The battles are quite challenging and most new players probably wouldn't make it past Illasera (in fact, just about anyone who starts in ToB would have a hard time with Illasera)
Never like ascesion mod, insane difficult, Thron of Bhal slow down, overpower slayer no need this. Like components from BG2 Unfinished Business mod: - Restored Bhaalspawn Powers, by David Gaider - Extended Throne of Bhaal Item Descriptions - Throne of Bhaal Minor Restorations this components are good and not break game balance.
@Metal_Hurlant Not sure which mod you are refering to there, but to give you an example of a balancing mod, check out @Demivrgvs's Spell Revisions (http://www.gibberlings3.net/spell_rev/) - in essence it nerfs some of the more powerful spells, and improves many of the useless ones so that there's a reason for memorizing them. It doesn't particularly make the game more or less difficult (possibly more difficult since it makes demons more powerful and summoned demons trickier to control), just spellcaster handling more interesting.
Of course, maybe you've already tried it and found it not for you for some other reason, but like I was trying to say in my first post, neglecting all mods because you played a few that introduced overpowered items or NPCs just seems short-sighted.
It sounds like a lot of people object to the mod because of the added difficulty--but the added difficulty would be something that couldn't be incorporated wholesale anyway, whereas including David Gaider's content would be a much easier selling point to the third parties.
It was already discussed somewhere months ago, that some of us have some problems with the Slayer form. 1. The reputation penalty makes you avid it when playing good char (which is not a big problem, since if you aregood you shouldnt use it anyway, but still I tink there should be a cap on it) 2. Your char is usually weaker in Slyaer form, than in normal... So yeah, I would like the creators to redesign the Slayer form. As for the other stuff: I wouldn't encourage taking things from mods, but rather think about their content if parts of it are worth implementing (like making battles more difficult is OK, but I would like the battle to be redesigned by the "official" team, rather then by some mod-maker)
@Senash Again, Ascension wasn't made by just "some mod-maker". David Gaider, the one who directed its creation, was a member of the original team that made Throne of Bhaal.
...Although I see now that you're specifically referring to the difficulty of the battles.
I've just tried fighting Illasera's group with a newly created shapeshifter in ToB. It's impossibile. I also tried raising my character to max level with cheats, I conjured a fallen deva, the prince of air, a shambling mound, a couple more of elementals (and I also have the Spell Revisions mod!), but she keeps hacking my character to bits. It's just nuts.
The worst part is that it's an unavoidable encounter at the very beginning of the game (for ToB). In vanilla ToB she was a bit weak, agreed, but with Ascension she's absurdly powerful!
(I didn't try lowering the game difficulty, though, but it shouldn't be so hard anyway.)
for those ToB harder battles, it should be dependant on if you completed SoA or not, the first bhaalspawn challenge (in the pocket plane) even knows if you imported your character from bg 1, so if the game detects that you started in ToB then all the 5 bhaalspawn battles should just be the default ToB ones, and if you started in SoA then they can crank to all the hard ones, although the abizigal one is just ridiculous, good thing the AI is broke as f*** on that one or else it would be impossible
I do not play or install mods made by random individuals who's authorization and/or credentials are alien to me, regardless of their content.
To each their own obviously, but this approach has always surprised me. The way I see it, the only real way for an individual to determine if a mod makes the game better or worse is to try it. It's not like there's any divine magic about the original developers that made their every decision in terms of content, writing, balance, etc an optimal, unimprovable call that is bound to make the game worse if tweaked.
In all likelihood, some people in the modding community have greater insight into the game than the people in the original development team - both in terms of engine mechanics and, after more than a decade of extremely thorough testing, also the overall game flow and balance. In all likelihood, some mod makers have writing skills comparable to the people who did the writing for the game, qualified and authorized as they may be. It just comes across as a sort of close-minded way into the game experience to knock everything that isn't "official" without even checking it out.
My "close-minded" preference of gaming has nothing to do with whether or not the modders can improve the game or not. I've heard that there are multiple mods that improve BG1 to the point where 19/20 people that I speak to about BG1 play it WITH mods, as opposed to without. I play the original game with official patches because that is how the game was intended to be played. Yes, sometimes (Perhaps even often), there are some bugs that are left unsolved, but I am fine with that, because I am playing the game in it's original form, and I sincerely enjoy it.
For the record, while I do not install or play mods, I do sometimes read or listen about them, and I disagree that "some people in the modding community have greater insight into the game than the people in the original development team." There is nothing that I have listened to or read that even partially leads me to believe otherwise. Then again, I have always had great respect for development teams that start at the drawing board and end with an outstanding game, and it saddens me to see that great respect is rare, even among the fans of Baldur's Gate.
I play the original game with official patches because that is how the game was intended to be played.
The point of many of the best mods is precisely to bring the game closer to how it was intended to be played. When an item's description says it does X effect, and it doesn't, and you realize it's because there's a typo in its script, somehow it seems wrong to assume that this inconsistency and this typo are really what the developers intended.
I don't know if it should be a mandatory install, but at least included in the BG2:EE download would be nice.
While I'd prefer to keep it off my computer entirely, I think this would please people on both fronts, myself included. I have no interest in mandatory mods.
@Anduine - Ascension's author was one of the original game developers.
@Zeckul - you didn't include what I suggested elsewhere, which is to include it in the game but under a separate optional menu for mods, like other games do. There are some people who just won't use mods or other external programs but they're more likely to try something available within the game itself.
@Anduine The "closemindedness" here lies in the belief of only one side of the story. That a mod may in the eyes of some improve upon the original game isn't about being disrespectful toward the original developers.
As for what is or isn't intended, my view is that it tends to be a shifty line. Looking at ascension for instance. If David Gaider had made it as lead designer you would by your own code accept it at at least somewhat official content, I'd assume. If Gaider instead hypothetically got fired two days before completing ascension, would you then view it as unofficial material and refuse to use it based on that, in spite of it being the exact same content?
I really like Ascension and I never play ToB without it anymore. However, I do find the final battle ridiculous. I think I played the whole Saga up to the final battle 3 times and then just stopped, because I just don't enjoy it. That being said and having read the opinions of others regarding this subject, I think it would be great if the more popular mods would be included in the BG2:EE download, but not mandatory.
About all this rebalancing stuff (for example spell revisions): What are these revisions grounded on? I always thought it was supposed to be more true to the Ad&D rules that way. Is that untrue?
In many cases it brings them closer to PnP, but in others it adds things (or removes things) to a spell's effect to make it more interesting or more balanced in the context of a video game.
@Zeckul - you didn't include what I suggested elsewhere, which is to include it in the game but under a separate optional menu for mods, like other games do. There are some people who just won't use mods or other external programs but they're more likely to try something available within the game itself.
I would add it now but I unfortunately can't edit the poll. That said, I don't believe that off-by-default optional components are a good investement of Overhaul's time and resources, in addition to making the base game more complex and difficult to maintain for both developers and modders. Also, as I suggested before, Ascension doesn't need to be optional if it is sufficiently adjustable via the difficulty slider, and everyone can still benefit from the expanded role-playing options.
@Zeckul - it would be more difficult and complex for the developers to integrate mods into the base game than to add them as optional modder-maintained components. Granted, I suppose they could just apply the mod and ship the game like that but I think there would be downstream maintenance issues, not to mention folks who just want the original content which would not be available in that scenario. I can say this both from the perspective of a modder and a software engineer. However, we have argued that BG(2)EE should at least ship with Detectable Spells, which was first used in Ascension. It would not change the base game much but would be usable by mods, and seems to have been intended by looking at the way the original game files work (it's mainly just a matter of expanding some of those tables and whatnot).
@Aosaw@AndreaColombo - My mistake (Was just in a hurry, checked the forum, found the OP interesting, but didn't have time to read all the posts. My apologies for that!) But I still hold to my opinion that mods as whole packs shouldn't be included, but rather should be revised and, after serious considaration, certain features of them could be used in EE. I haven't try the mod (haven't used any tbh...) so I have no opinion on how the battle difficulties in it, but I do agree that the battles should be improved a bit (and by that I mean they should make them more difficult). If I remember well (correct me if I'm wrong pls ) they do work on improving the AI, so hopefully that alone would help a bit.
Comments
In all likelihood, some people in the modding community have greater insight into the game than the people in the original development team - both in terms of engine mechanics and, after more than a decade of extremely thorough testing, also the overall game flow and balance. In all likelihood, some mod makers have writing skills comparable to the people who did the writing for the game, qualified and authorized as they may be. It just comes across as a sort of close-minded way into the game experience to knock everything that isn't "official" without even checking it out.
Just so everyone is clear on what is being asked here, this is for Ascension. The "Improved Battles" were created before "Ascension" and Wes is the one who packaged them all up together with WeiDU into the current mod package. Voting for the extra battles is fine too though. Some of them are quite good and would be a worthy addition with some tweaks.
Ascension does the following with regards to gameplay:
- Sarevok recognizes if you still have his sword, and if you give it to him it regains some of its former power making it a worthy ToB sword.
- Balthazar is a good guy! He can be convinced to either commit suicide or join you in your final fight. The battle against him can be avoided with this mod.
- Melissan brings back Irenicus from the Abyss... good fight that.
- Irenicus calls upon Bodhi... who can be persuaded to join with an evil party in the final battle.
- Melissan brings back the 'Five' Bhaalspawn that you have slain instead of those silly demons only. *Unless you have Balthazar in your party for this fight.
- Player can gain new Bhaalspawn powers for the final fight. These alone can get you through this fight if you are clever and careful. Melissan still does summon demons, but one of your new powers allows you to control them too. During QA, I had an army of her demons on my side totally 57 at one time.
- Two new epilogues written for the two new joinables: Bodhi (Quitch) and Balthazar (*grin)
There may be a few more minor tweaks that I am forgetting, will dig through the original package if and when something is considered:D
It's really the result of years of community playtesting bringing about balance where there was a lack of it. Of course, some mods are unbalanced or just poorly made as well, but as said, you need to try them to find out.
For instance, why create a mod that allows NPCs to use (usually OP) items that they can't use in Vanilla BG? I've heard modders say we're creating a mod that's going to rely on tactics, but then they introduce game breaking items or change the NPCs which throws that balance out the window.
If you're happy with those mods, then that's great. I'd rather not play them.
Definitely tone it down a bit, though, if you're going to do that. The battles are quite challenging and most new players probably wouldn't make it past Illasera (in fact, just about anyone who starts in ToB would have a hard time with Illasera)
Like components from BG2 Unfinished Business mod:
- Restored Bhaalspawn Powers, by David Gaider
- Extended Throne of Bhaal Item Descriptions
- Throne of Bhaal Minor Restorations
this components are good and not break game balance.
Of course, maybe you've already tried it and found it not for you for some other reason, but like I was trying to say in my first post, neglecting all mods because you played a few that introduced overpowered items or NPCs just seems short-sighted.
1. The reputation penalty makes you avid it when playing good char (which is not a big problem, since if you aregood you shouldnt use it anyway, but still I tink there should be a cap on it)
2. Your char is usually weaker in Slyaer form, than in normal...
So yeah, I would like the creators to redesign the Slayer form. As for the other stuff: I wouldn't encourage taking things from mods, but rather think about their content if parts of it are worth implementing (like making battles more difficult is OK, but I would like the battle to be redesigned by the "official" team, rather then by some mod-maker)
...Although I see now that you're specifically referring to the difficulty of the battles.
The worst part is that it's an unavoidable encounter at the very beginning of the game (for ToB). In vanilla ToB she was a bit weak, agreed, but with Ascension she's absurdly powerful!
(I didn't try lowering the game difficulty, though, but it shouldn't be so hard anyway.)
My "close-minded" preference of gaming has nothing to do with whether or not the modders can improve the game or not. I've heard that there are multiple mods that improve BG1 to the point where 19/20 people that I speak to about BG1 play it WITH mods, as opposed to without. I play the original game with official patches because that is how the game was intended to be played. Yes, sometimes (Perhaps even often), there are some bugs that are left unsolved, but I am fine with that, because I am playing the game in it's original form, and I sincerely enjoy it.
For the record, while I do not install or play mods, I do sometimes read or listen about them, and I disagree that "some people in the modding community have greater insight into the game than the people in the original development team." There is nothing that I have listened to or read that even partially leads me to believe otherwise. Then again, I have always had great respect for development teams that start at the drawing board and end with an outstanding game, and it saddens me to see that great respect is rare, even among the fans of Baldur's Gate.
While I'd prefer to keep it off my computer entirely, I think this would please people on both fronts, myself included. I have no interest in mandatory mods.
@Zeckul - you didn't include what I suggested elsewhere, which is to include it in the game but under a separate optional menu for mods, like other games do. There are some people who just won't use mods or other external programs but they're more likely to try something available within the game itself.
As for what is or isn't intended, my view is that it tends to be a shifty line. Looking at ascension for instance. If David Gaider had made it as lead designer you would by your own code accept it at at least somewhat official content, I'd assume. If Gaider instead hypothetically got fired two days before completing ascension, would you then view it as unofficial material and refuse to use it based on that, in spite of it being the exact same content?
That being said and having read the opinions of others regarding this subject, I think it would be great if the more popular mods would be included in the BG2:EE download, but not mandatory.
About all this rebalancing stuff (for example spell revisions): What are these revisions grounded on? I always thought it was supposed to be more true to the Ad&D rules that way. Is that untrue?