So there may be two persons one of which enjoys Ascension very much, the other does not.
Change "Ascension" to "1PP" and ask the same question.
I'm sure there were people who disliked that particular mod, but once the decision was made to integrate it into the EE, you could either accept that it was there or... I don't know, not play the game. But there was no mass revolt then, and there wouldn't be one now if "Ascension" were integrated, especially since how it only really affects the very last battle of the game. And quite frankly, the benefits (better endings for multiple characters, more RP options with Balthazar and Bodhi, evolving Slayer forms) outweigh any drawbacks.
If BG2:EE becomes compatible with Ascension as a mod the first one can install the mod and have fun. The latter one can choose to not install it and enjoy the game without it and have fun.
That's already the case now - you can play classic BG2 without "Ascension". The EE needs to distinguish itself from the original as often and as much as possible; incorporating "Ascension" would go a long way towards that goal.
@Erg Maybe not, but it's still better for taking the fun of playing the game from me. I want to roleplay in BG, not to powerbuild.
If your only concern is about being forced to powergame, that's what the 2nd option of the poll is for. As I was seeing it, with some rebalancing and smart usage of the difficulty slider, Ascension can be included without forcing players into any particular playstyle (or at least, not anymore than the original ToB did).
The problems with keeping it as a mod is that no one's updating it anymore so it will not work with BG2:EE; even if it did, most players won't know about the mod - and I'm not sure you even can mod the game on some of the supported platforms.
@ZelgadisGW: Right, because D&D fans never wage virtual wars over cosmetic changes.
It's the principle of the thing - if the devs choose to incorporate specific mods/features into the game, even the most opposed players will shrug their shoulders and get on with it.
I mean, without "Ascension", you have to kill Balthazar even if you're a Rep 20 Paladin who radiates goodness out of every pore in your body; Viconia goes off to save the elves even if you didn't romance/redeem her; Sarevok becomes a hero even if he was talking about slaughtering entire cities at your side ten minutes ago; you have no reason to summon the Slayer past a certain point because your own stats can top its benefits; and all of Amelyssan's talk about Bhaal's power amounts to her summoning the exact same minions as any mage, cleric or druid in your party.
To insist that those flaws remain in the game for the sake of "purity" or out of some misguided notion that the final battle becomes too hard (if you've beaten Demogorgon or the Twisted Rune, you can handle the Five, especially with Balthazar or Bodhi on your team - one of them drains levels with every attack) seems ridiculous to me, especially when the original BG2 can already be that "classic" version for players who really want it.
Wouldn't Ascension be a huge transgression of the contractual obligation not to mess around with story and characters in any major way? Given what has always been said about not being able to make major changes I can imagine minor things like Slayer upgrades being implemented, but rewriting the endgame story should be off the table completely.
@shawne Yeah, because you obviously cannot request an option to deal with a Baltazar in other way or improvements over the Slayer form SPECIFICALY. I actually did request changes to the Slayer, and I didn't see you commenting on it - meaning you probably just want specificaly Ascension to be included, regardless of how people feel about it. Just admit it, it's not that hard to be blunt once for a while.
You might be a more experienced player than me, so you think that beating the final battle will be like a walk in the park. But, it is because your experience that you don't give a single thought about players inferior to yourself. I have never managed to win that fight, and with my "no-powergaming/no-cheese" policy, it is impossible. I won't discard BG2:EE just because I don't want the Ascension. Telling me to stick to original BG2 is just selfish from you.
@Zecktul On some platforms the game cannot be moded? That's cool, quess why I suggested an free DLC?
I doubt any form of the ascension mod will be implemented, ( as RedGuard said about the contract issues) but I bet the devs will find a way to make it so the players that want it in their game badly, can have it
@shawne Yeah, because you obviously cannot request an option to deal with a Baltazar in other way or improvements over the Slayer form SPECIFICALY. I actually did request changes to the Slayer, and I didn't see you commenting on it - meaning you probably just want specificaly Ascension to be included, regardless of how people feel about it. Just admit it, it's not that hard to be blunt once for a while.
Uh... yeah? The only difference between us is that you want parts of the mod implemented, and I want the whole thing: the multiple endings for specific characters, the rematch with Irenicus and the Five, the bit with Sarevok and his sword, the seventh party member, the improved Slayer... I mean, what's the point of asking the devs to create another version of something that already exists?
You might be a more experienced player than me, so you think that beating the final battle will be like a walk in the park. But, it is because your experience that you don't give a single thought about players inferior to yourself.
It's not a matter of whether I can beat the final battle - I play on Normal, no SCS or anything like that, and yes, Amelyssan wiped the floor with me the first time. But anyone who makes it to the end of ToB can handle tough fights (respective to whatever difficulty level they're playing with), especially with all the new abilities the pools give you.
I have never managed to win that fight, and with my "no-powergaming/no-cheese" policy, it is impossible. I won't discard BG2:EE just because I don't want the Ascension. Telling me to stick to original BG2 is just selfish from you.
But it's not selfish of you to insist on keeping ToB's flaws just because you have a "policy" that makes the final battle more challenging for you? Uh-huh...
@sarevok57: According to @Dee, it's still being discussed internally - which at least means that they're interested to some extent. The question is whether David Gaider's involvement might somehow circumvent the contractual limitations: he's still at BioWare, so maybe his approval would bypass existing restrictions because "Ascension" has his name attached to it?
I doubt Gaider being involved would magically bypass the contractual obligations. It's still a fan mod at the end of the day and the conent is not cut content, but fan ideas.
@shawne 1. I don't want the part of this mod to be implemented. I wanted to improve Slayer in a new way, taking roleplaying elements into account, not basing it on player's experience.
2.Bullshit and you know it.
3. It selfish from me to suggest Ascension to be a DLC, so that people could decide they want it or not, right? Your logic is non-existent.
I bit of agree with @ZelgadisGW in the 3° point, until the ? point, for me ascension isn't something made to be whole implemented as vanilla, it's like make Tactics from weimer as Vanilla, this will piss off new players and reduce sales.
The actual difficult of BG is a bad joke, that's undeniable, but to make all the battles a suffering experience isn't what's going to please the crowd here. I doubt this to be done but then i lose nothing for suggesting it:
Make ascension an paid DLC, yes (to break the actual contract limits we're going to need to give incentives), But include on it levels of difficult, so with the DLC installed, at each new game you select which level of difficult would be usable.
By the way, i don't think the ascention mod should be totally implemented in BG2:EE, not everything in that mod was really great from the start and surely irenicus redemption isn't something i think viable. I would like to see him with some minor acts during ToB (after all he's supposed to be trapped inside the own pocket plane, where he lost SoA's Final Battle), but that's all.
Force someone out of BG2:EE for oppose Ascension total integration is arrogance, but do nothing about the easy walk the game is atm is keep the mistake, i suggested a middle term here, but that doesn't need to be the right middle term, the issue can be argued but close in radical point of views will not bring benefits.
Is Ascension implemented in the game? I think I'll hold off buying BG2 until I am sure that it is there. The 5 and the final ending are just too disappointing without it.
It isn't implemented in game, but modders will have a BG2:EE compatible version of the mod up very quickly (as in within the next couple of weeks) IIRC.
Wouldn't Ascension be a huge transgression of the contractual obligation not to mess around with story and characters in any major way? Given what has always been said about not being able to make major changes I can imagine minor things like Slayer upgrades being implemented, but rewriting the endgame story should be off the table completely.
This is it in a nutshell. Yes BG2EE is the 'Enhanced Edition' but given the level of debate on here about whether or not Ascension is an enhancement or of detriment to the game experience I say including it as standard is a non-starter. Also, you have to consider the number of new players this release will bring, if you give them this release with Ascension then, yes, it would be enhanced but you would also be denying new gamers of the original ending, it'd be like adding too much salt to your cooking, once it's done you're going to find it bloody difficult to 'take it out' again. Also I stand by my assertion that game difficulty should only be completely controllable and only changed in the difficulty settings, not by coding a layman cannot alter.
@Messi, no... but I am in the process of getting an EE version of Ascension ready. doing some tests and I just happened to get this screenshot before checking the forums just now!
Agreed. Maybe this thread should be closed and a general "what's the state of Ascension" or "lets just talk about Ascension" thread should be opened instead. The debate about whether it belongs or not is absolutely redundant now.
Comments
I'm sure there were people who disliked that particular mod, but once the decision was made to integrate it into the EE, you could either accept that it was there or... I don't know, not play the game. But there was no mass revolt then, and there wouldn't be one now if "Ascension" were integrated, especially since how it only really affects the very last battle of the game. And quite frankly, the benefits (better endings for multiple characters, more RP options with Balthazar and Bodhi, evolving Slayer forms) outweigh any drawbacks. That's already the case now - you can play classic BG2 without "Ascension". The EE needs to distinguish itself from the original as often and as much as possible; incorporating "Ascension" would go a long way towards that goal.
Don't say you cannot see the difference between cosmetic changes and something like Ascension.
The problems with keeping it as a mod is that no one's updating it anymore so it will not work with BG2:EE; even if it did, most players won't know about the mod - and I'm not sure you even can mod the game on some of the supported platforms.
It's the principle of the thing - if the devs choose to incorporate specific mods/features into the game, even the most opposed players will shrug their shoulders and get on with it.
I mean, without "Ascension", you have to kill Balthazar even if you're a Rep 20 Paladin who radiates goodness out of every pore in your body; Viconia goes off to save the elves even if you didn't romance/redeem her; Sarevok becomes a hero even if he was talking about slaughtering entire cities at your side ten minutes ago; you have no reason to summon the Slayer past a certain point because your own stats can top its benefits; and all of Amelyssan's talk about Bhaal's power amounts to her summoning the exact same minions as any mage, cleric or druid in your party.
To insist that those flaws remain in the game for the sake of "purity" or out of some misguided notion that the final battle becomes too hard (if you've beaten Demogorgon or the Twisted Rune, you can handle the Five, especially with Balthazar or Bodhi on your team - one of them drains levels with every attack) seems ridiculous to me, especially when the original BG2 can already be that "classic" version for players who really want it.
Yeah, because you obviously cannot request an option to deal with a Baltazar in other way or improvements over the Slayer form SPECIFICALY. I actually did request changes to the Slayer, and I didn't see you commenting on it - meaning you probably just want specificaly Ascension to be included, regardless of how people feel about it. Just admit it, it's not that hard to be blunt once for a while.
You might be a more experienced player than me, so you think that beating the final battle will be like a walk in the park. But, it is because your experience that you don't give a single thought about players inferior to yourself. I have never managed to win that fight, and with my "no-powergaming/no-cheese" policy, it is impossible. I won't discard BG2:EE just because I don't want the Ascension. Telling me to stick to original BG2 is just selfish from you.
@Zecktul
On some platforms the game cannot be moded? That's cool, quess why I suggested an free DLC?
1. I don't want the part of this mod to be implemented. I wanted to improve Slayer in a new way, taking roleplaying elements into account, not basing it on player's experience.
2.Bullshit and you know it.
3. It selfish from me to suggest Ascension to be a DLC, so that people could decide they want it or not, right? Your logic is non-existent.
The actual difficult of BG is a bad joke, that's undeniable, but to make all the battles a suffering experience isn't what's going to please the crowd here. I doubt this to be done but then i lose nothing for suggesting it:
Make ascension an paid DLC, yes (to break the actual contract limits we're going to need to give incentives), But include on it levels of difficult, so with the DLC installed, at each new game you select which level of difficult would be usable.
By the way, i don't think the ascention mod should be totally implemented in BG2:EE, not everything in that mod was really great from the start and surely irenicus redemption isn't something i think viable. I would like to see him with some minor acts during ToB (after all he's supposed to be trapped inside the own pocket plane, where he lost SoA's Final Battle), but that's all.
Force someone out of BG2:EE for oppose Ascension total integration is arrogance, but do nothing about the easy walk the game is atm is keep the mistake, i suggested a middle term here, but that doesn't need to be the right middle term, the issue can be argued but close in radical point of views will not bring benefits.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/23076/state-of-ascension#latest