I love Ascension and install the mod everytime I play ToB. But the very simple answer is that it's a mod and can be installed or not installed as an individual sees fit. I have no desire to force my mod choices on others involuntarily. All individuals have a right to enjoy the game and story play through as originally released...
This!
To force own mod choices on others is simply selfish.
The difference is, Ascension was created by one of the original writers, because of shortcomings in the original ToB. So really, it's more of a patch than a mod.
We've already established Ascension was not cut content that was restored, so at best it is George Lucas style re-imagining.
It is George Lucas done right, but it is clearly still a mod.
It was never a matter of "convincing the team to include it". It wasn't included because release was rushed, and so they had to come up with an ending (any old ending) pronto. AFTER the ToB was published they looked at it, realised it was rubbish, and David Gaider was the only one who cared enough to fix it.
It's not a question of Canon or non canon. It's a question of rubbish and non rubbish.
But you're just arguing taste. It's totally subjective. What about the problems with Ascension mentioned by BigFish above? How does it make more sense that, instead of using using extraplanar thralls against you, Melissan would revive the mortal schmucks you've already beat? How does raising people from the dead fit with the profile of the god of murder? Why would the Five fight together against you, when they have no chance to get the divine power for themselves, but instead are just fighting on behalf of someone else? They're all self-serving jerks, they would never do that. Maybe you can answer these to your satisfaction, but you can't to mine. It's still just a matter of taste, which is why the mod should be OPTIONAL.
And, it already is optional! Every single person here arguing for including Ascension has already installed and played it, and will no doubt install and play it on BG2EE. So the benefit of including it is negligible at best. Whereas, the cost to people who don't like it is huge, and they will have no recourse to overcome that cost. Given that asymmetry, I can't see how this conversation can even proceed in a serious manner.
I agree with the core of this.
(With the Five being mostly self-serving jerks, however, I can totally see them agreeing to fight you (a) for revenge and (b) in exchange for being granted certain benefits - not the least of which is being brought back to life).
1. Tablet users cannot mod the game, as I understand. They can't simply go to the Pocket Plane Group and install Ascension.
2. BG:EE is already modded by including elements of 1pp, and BG2:EE will have the same.
3. BG:EE was already modded by the inclusion of new items, new NPCs, areas, and fights. Presumably, BG2 will get similar treatment.
The precedent for a modded experience has already been set. It's too late to go back now, so we might as well give everybody the deepest, most robust conclusion to the franchise that can be achieved, and that means including Ascension's story elements.
I can look at sales of BG2, then compare them to the download counts of my BG2 Fixpack and BG2 Tweaks, which are staples on most mod recommendation lists. Given that the numbers are orders of magnitude apart, it's an assertion I feel very comfortable making.
Sorry @CamDawg but even your own personal download counts will be an inaccurate representation of how many people actually use your mods or have incorporated your work into illegal copies of the game, shared the game between friends or simply resold second hand versions of the game.
You realize that supports my point, right?
The BG2 numbers are just legit sales, and don't include all of the pirated copies, resales, shares with friends, re-bundles, etc. so it's a lower bound. My download counts don't account for multiple downloads by the same people, particularly for new mod releases or for folks moving to new computers or platforms, so it's more of an upper bound. The data I've formed my opinion upon is a best-case scenario for mod use, and still shows an order of magnitude between total BG2 players and players who use mods.
So yes, it's still a an assertion, but one that remains supported by available data and reasonable projections.
It's not a question of Canon or non canon. It's a question of rubbish and non rubbish.
But you're just arguing taste. It's totally subjective.
Actually, that isn't true. taste is not TOTALLY subjective. Few people would consider Star Wars episode 1 better than Star Wars episode IV.
What about the problems with Ascension mentioned by BigFish above? How does it make more sense that, instead of using using extraplanar thralls against you, Melissan would revive the mortal schmucks you've already beat?
Instead of fighting irrelevent generic monsters(TM), you fight characters who actually have some connection to the story.
How does raising people from the dead fit with the profile of the god of murder?
Why should it? Melissan has her own powers.
Why would the Five fight together against you, when they have no chance to get the divine power for themselves, but instead are just fighting on behalf of someone else?
1. Tablet users cannot mod the game, as I understand. They can't simply go to the Pocket Plane Group and install Ascension.
2. BG:EE is already modded by including elements of 1pp, and BG2:EE will have the same.
3. BG:EE was already modded by the inclusion of new items, new NPCs, areas, and fights. Presumably, BG2 will get similar treatment.
The precedent for a modded experience has already been set. It's too late to go back now, so we might as well give everybody the deepest, most robust conclusion to the franchise that can be achieved, and that means including Ascension's story elements.
Using the option to mod within the game (through optional DLC, etc.) seems like the clearly superior choice to railroading any version of Ascension into the baseline of the game. There isn't a reason this couldn't be done on tablets just like the DLC already available in BG:EE that can be installed or ignored at the user's discretion.
You're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Twilight Zone!
They aren't irrelevant generic monsters, they are planar beings that are supposed to be subservient to actual Gods. They make for a better final obstacle to your potential ascension than a group of washed up Demi-gods that you've already defeated.
Using the option to mod within the game (through optional DLC, etc.) seems like the clearly superior choice to railroading any version of Ascension into the baseline of the game. There isn't a reason this couldn't be done on tablets just like the DLC already available in BG:EE that can be installed or ignored at the user's discretion.
And I still think it'd be better to include the story elements in the base game simply for the sake of convenience and completeness. I can't fathom a legitimate reason to keep it separate. Are we really holding the original ending of ToB sacred?
Few people would consider Star Wars episode 1 better than Star Wars episode IV.
I know some people that do indeed prefer Episode 1. After all people may have all kind of crazy ideas, like for example the idea that Ascension should be included in BG2EE :-p
And I still think it'd be better to include the story elements in the base game simply for the sake of convenience and completeness. I can't fathom a legitimate reason to keep it separate
Apparently you also think you have the right to make this choice for everyone else.
Apparently you also think you have the right to make this choice for everyone else.
Don't I? I voted on this poll, after all. I think it should be included.
It's not a matter of rights, so much as a matter of what would make BG2:EE as "enhanced" for the better for the most amount of players possible. 1pp was a natural part of that vision for BG:EE. Ascension should naturally be a part of BG2:EE by that same mode of thinking.
Apparently you also think you have the right to make this choice for everyone else.
Don't I? I voted on this poll, after all. I think it should be included.
It's not a matter of rights, so much as a matter of what would make BG2:EE as "enhanced" for the better for the most amount of players possible. 1pp was a natural part of that vision for BG:EE. Ascension should naturally be a part of BG2:EE by that same mode of thinking.
It's still just a matter of taste, which is why the mod should be OPTIONAL.
And, it already is optional! Every single person here arguing for including Ascension has already installed and played it, and will no doubt install and play it on BG2EE. So the benefit of including it is negligible at best. Whereas, the cost to people who don't like it is huge, and they will have no recourse to overcome that cost. Given that asymmetry, I can't see how this conversation can even proceed in a serious manner.
I'm getting real tired of seeing the "Add it because you can always go back to the old version". That argument functions just as well in the reverse: "Don't add it because anyone wanting to play Ascension can go install it on the old version".
No it doesn't. You have to sell the product. You have to convince people they should buy something they already own or something they can buy cheaper elsewhere. How can you expect to sell something thats basically identical to BG2? You will go all "Hey guys, buy this, is exactly the same as the game you already have but we added this mod and this mod so now you don't have to, but we didn't add this one 'cause you can add it yourself."?
Comments
the battle *is* pretty tough, but for the final battle in an epic saga it´s only fitting
I can see why people might not want the harder fights, but wanting a rubbish conclusion instead of a good one? That I can't fathom.
Besides, I like harder fights, but that is not the point of this discussion IMO.
(With the Five being mostly self-serving jerks, however, I can totally see them agreeing to fight you (a) for revenge and (b) in exchange for being granted certain benefits - not the least of which is being brought back to life).
2. BG:EE is already modded by including elements of 1pp, and BG2:EE will have the same.
3. BG:EE was already modded by the inclusion of new items, new NPCs, areas, and fights. Presumably, BG2 will get similar treatment.
The precedent for a modded experience has already been set. It's too late to go back now, so we might as well give everybody the deepest, most robust conclusion to the franchise that can be achieved, and that means including Ascension's story elements.
The BG2 numbers are just legit sales, and don't include all of the pirated copies, resales, shares with friends, re-bundles, etc. so it's a lower bound. My download counts don't account for multiple downloads by the same people, particularly for new mod releases or for folks moving to new computers or platforms, so it's more of an upper bound. The data I've formed my opinion upon is a best-case scenario for mod use, and still shows an order of magnitude between total BG2 players and players who use mods.
So yes, it's still a an assertion, but one that remains supported by available data and reasonable projections. Your understanding is wrong. This has been debunked several times just in this thread.
It's not a matter of rights, so much as a matter of what would make BG2:EE as "enhanced" for the better for the most amount of players possible. 1pp was a natural part of that vision for BG:EE. Ascension should naturally be a part of BG2:EE by that same mode of thinking. Then help me understand. How are more possible epilogues and more interparty banter possibly not good things?