I would like the Ascension mod in all its glory, but some of the battles would be very offputting for newer gamers. I'd say add it, plus a difficulty scale.
Reading years ago, I understood that Ascension mod merely made BG2 into the game the Authors always wanted BG2 to be.
And, BG2EE is intended to be the "fixed", definitive version of the original BG2 -- which implies "restoring" (in a sense) content that was originally intended by the original authors.
On that basis, I want it. If I'm wrong, I'm willing to be corrected.
Ascension's content wasn't necessarily planned, but it has been revealed that Throne of Bhaal's content was "cut short", so to speak, because of time and budget constraints. Ascension was David Gaider's attempt to give ToB the ending it deserved.
All individuals have a right to enjoy the game and story play through as originally released...
Funny how you make that sound like a constitutional right or something. Actually BG2:EE won't make the original game disappear, so anyone not happy with it can always just ignore it and keep playing the original. Also, BG2:EE won't prevent mods, so anyone who wants the original ending back in can mod it in. If there's demand for it it'll happen.
So, whichever way, players will always have the choice of the ending they want. It's a matter of selecting which one's going to be there by default, and Ascension seems like the best choice by far.
All individuals have a right to enjoy the game and story play through as originally released...
Funny how you make that sound like a constitutional right or something. Actually BG2:EE won't make the original game disappear, so anyone not happy with it can always just ignore it and keep playing the original. Also, BG2:EE won't prevent mods, so anyone who wants the original ending back in can mod it in. If there's demand for it it'll happen.
So, whichever way, players will always have the choice of the ending they want. It's a matter of selecting which one's going to be there by default, and Ascension seems like the best choice by far.
And Ascension is already a mod which exists NOW and you can just as easily add it to BG2EE when it comes out by your very own argument! You want to hard-code the mod into the game and then have another mod, not yet available, for those who want the original ending?? Seriously?
What I don't get is why this is even an issue in the first place. Just install the mod into BG2EE when it comes out and you can enjoy the game and the mod. Why must you impose a hard-coded version of the mod upon everyone else who wants to enjoy just an Enhanced Edition of the original game and its storyline?
@JTM: The problem with your argument is that it assumes Ascension can be installed onto BG2EE. Let's not forget that we're nearly three months post-launch and popular BG1 mods like the NPC Project and Unfinished Business are still incompatible (contrary to assurances that the EE would be easier to mod), so it's not quite as simple as "Just install the mod into BG2EE when it comes out". If Beamdog is in a position to integrate the mod themselves - as they've already done with 1PP - I'd much rather leave it in their hands than wait for when (or, indeed, if) the mod is updated.
Ascension will not work with iPad/etc if it's not in the game already. I think the iPad players should get a separate vote-Vanilla ending or Ascension?-as they will not have the option of modding.
I know what you mean, but what I'm saying is this:
If Ascension is not added to BG2:EE, it is very possible that ipad players will never play it.
Therefore, I think that they should be given a separate poll seeing as they will not have mods to give them a choice concerning whether or not they wish to use Ascension.
I think that it would be great to include this mod whenever it was possible to play with the original difficulty level. It could even include a new difficulty mode for "Ascension", so that the users can choose what they prefer.
All individuals have a right to enjoy the game and story play through as originally released...
Funny how you make that sound like a constitutional right or something. Actually BG2:EE won't make the original game disappear, so anyone not happy with it can always just ignore it and keep playing the original. Also, BG2:EE won't prevent mods, so anyone who wants the original ending back in can mod it in. If there's demand for it it'll happen.
So, whichever way, players will always have the choice of the ending they want. It's a matter of selecting which one's going to be there by default, and Ascension seems like the best choice by far.
And Ascension is already a mod which exists NOW and you can just as easily add it to BG2EE when it comes out by your very own argument! You want to hard-code the mod into the game and then have another mod, not yet available, for those who want the original ending?? Seriously?
What I don't get is why this is even an issue in the first place. Just install the mod into BG2EE when it comes out and you can enjoy the game and the mod. Why must you impose a hard-coded version of the mod upon everyone else who wants to enjoy just an Enhanced Edition of the original game and its storyline?
I would like someone who has voted no to actually tell why? I mean everything ascension adds is simply better done than vanilla ToB, I mean I can understand if you don't harder fights but obviously that's not the issue since that's an option. I gotta say though that Ascension Yaga-Shura is the most fun fight in all IE games, so your loss.
Anyway let's review what Ascension changes apart from the fights(as well as I remeber them):
* Sarevok recognizes his sword if you have it and it will be upgraded to +4 so it's actually useful in ToB * Some added dialogue to both Imoen and Sarevok written by David Gaider who worked on both BG2 and ToB as game designer and started working on Ascension, with some help from the community, pretty much as soon as ToB was out. * Ability to influence Sarevok alignment through that dialogue. * Good aligned Balthazar doesn't actually just outright try to murder you(!) but you can actually have a meaningful chat with him. * Amelissan summons Irenicus and Bodhi for final chat and fight. Ability to influence Bodhi. Imoen slayer form change. * Final fight changed to much more personal and interesting. Instead of Amelissan summoning high level mobs you get to face your siblings again, one of them potentially for the 3rd time.
Would be interesting to know vanilla without these changes is actually a better game here.
Let's put it another way: if the game ships with the original ending in, there's immediately going to be a lot of demand and anxiety to get Ascension running in, and if it doesn't happen in a timely manner it's going to be disastrous. I know I'd be reluctant to play ToB without Ascension or the Improved Battles. On the other hand if Ascension is integrated, I doubt there will be anywhere as much, if any, demand to bring the original ending back. Once you've known better, you don't go back.
Additionally, it'll be a pleasant surprise to the majority of players without the know-how to install mods, for whom there's simply no choice to be had and BG2:EE's role is to provide them with the best possible experience out of the box.
It only makes sense to include that which will appeal to the largest number of players by default (regardless of whether or not there is a mod that can do it currently), and to leave the rest up to mods. I of course can't be sure, but if I had to guess I'd say that the majority of players would prefer the improvements of Ascension, probably without the much more difficult battles as they would put off a lot of people.
Ascension makes a lacklustre ending as good as it could possibly be, IMO. Short of scrapping ToB entirely and re-making it as a proper third instalment in the trilogy, including Ascension is the best thing they could ever do. Especially for those of us on the iPad who may never be able to integrate it otherwise.
I would love to see something like what has been done for the PC version of Skyrim done for both BG:EE and BG2:EE where you have the ability to just click on what mods you would like. This would be especially amazing on the IPad versions. Make the game not only easy to mod, but make it easy to play those mods.
I'm leaning towards no, but then, I have no point of camparison as I've only made it about half way through vanilla TOB. It all depends on how many unused assets were incorporated and how much was added in because that's how this one guy thought it should be.
difficulty is most welcome,for slayer forms i care little,as for the dialogues/epilogues i cannot tell if i do not see.
ps: as for the 2nd option..come on! the game is faceroll if you reduce the difficulty slider,while there are no hard enough moments if you play in a way that makes sense lorewise(aka with full group,and equipped with the best gear you have and a balanced party-the only way to make the game difficult is by fictional rp/powergame limitations-solo runs, magic hater runs->wizard slayer pc,no casters in group and such)
@Bigfish David Gaider (mod author) was the lead designer of ToB... just saying:) Won't spoil you... finish your ToB game and then give Ascension a try from the beginning of ToB again. The changes can be considerable ... you can even skip installing all the Improved Battles and just go with the story tweaks.
I think a lot of people who voted "no" want the optionality. That is where I fit. I play with all aspects of the Ascension mod installed but some people will only want story, some will want improved battles, some will want the original TOB, etc. so having a viable mod seemed ideal but if there was an in-game interface to allow certain mods to be selected/de-selected, etc. that seems like the best of all worlds.
@Bigfish David Gaider (mod author) was the lead designer of ToB... just saying:) Won't spoil you... finish your ToB game and then give Ascension a try from the beginning of ToB again. The changes can be considerable ... you can even skip installing all the Improved Battles and just go with the story tweaks.
I'm aware, but Gaider's recent work hasn't been too inspiring, certainly not enough for me to make a decision based on name power. Certainly as Lead Designer he holds some responsibility for the so-called broken release.
From a creationary stand point, good content sometimes gets cut in favor of a better end product. Was that the case here? I don't know. I certainly hope any bug fixes that came with the mod are addressed, since I gather ToB was a buggy mess at release, but I'm not going to get particularly attached to the content since the contractual obligations may very well restrict that they can make that many changes.
There is also the issue of IP ownership of such mods. Certainly the last thing I want to see is all the ascension content added and then Gaider turns around and files a lawsuit on the grounds that someone is making money off his mod.
@Bigfish: Presumably, integrating Ascension wouldn't be possible without Gaider's consent anyway, though I can't see why he'd refuse; it's not like he can profit from a mod that's based on technology/property of Atari/Wizards/BioWare/Beamdog/Who-The-Nessus-Ever.
As for questions of content... setting aside all subjective evaluations of what Ascension contributes, there are some incongruities in the original ToB storyline. Namely:
1. You have to fight Balthazar regardless of your alignment. This makes no sense in RP terms, because he has no reason to attack Good-aligned characters who are actively fighting to stop the prophecy.
2. The final battle against Amelyssan - and, indeed, the final battle of the Bhaalspawn Saga - lacks a clear thematic connection to anything that's come before. Amelyssan summons Elemental Princes and Planetars as backup: formidable opponents, sure, but they're not directly linked to either you or your enemy.
3. If Imoen is a Bhaalspawn, she should be experiencing the same powers and problems as your protagonist as she grows stronger. But her progression is abortive and incomplete (especially if she's been with you all along and your levels are pretty much the same).
4. For all that the Slayer is treated as an ultimate expression of Bhaalspawn power, it doesn't actually evolve or change as your character gains levels. In fact, you could easily reach a point where your own capabilities outstrip the Slayer's.
Whatever else Ascension does, its story-related contributions address these three flaws and corrects them:
1. Good-aligned characters can persuade Balthazar to help them rather than fight them, and he accompanies them to the final battle.
2. With Amelyssan controlling most of Bhaal's essence, she's able to call up enemies from your past to stop you, ranging from Sarevok to Irenicus and Bodhi to the Five. It's a culmination of everything you've been through since the first game. (Also, Evil-aligned characters can get their Balthazar counterpart by persuading Bodhi - she of the level-draining claws - to join them.)
3. Imoen's growing powers more closely resemble the player's own, including her eventual Slayer form
4. The PC's Slayer form becomes even more powerful at certain XP marks. At the highest tier, you can access to a different form: the Ravager. It makes the Slayer look like a Xvart.
So I don't think it's a stretch to say that there aren't any story-related reasons to prefer the original ToB to Ascension - the faults in the original exist, and this particular mod is able to address them.
The arguments against its inclusion seem to be based on some kind of preservative principle, ie: "Players should be able to experience the original ToB!" Well... it's not like BG2EE magically deletes the original ToB. You want to see how it worked the first time around, go play the original game. The whole point of the EE project is to impose certain improvements such as the 1PP mod - and if you don't like it, by all means, go back to the original. It's still there.
My principal gripe is with the "improved" battles, which I don't think are improved at all. As with Tactics, the idea seems to be that the player can metagaming to break the AI, so the mods allow the AI to break the rules... as if that somehow evens things out. To me, that just breaks the game, and I don't enjoy playing a broken game. My personal way to increase the challenge is to combine SCS with TobEx's concentration check to avoid spell disruption... many battles take on a whole new dimension when you can't reliably stop casters from getting spells off. Why should the game enshrine one method over another? Keep it vanilla, and let players use whatever mods they want.
All that said, if as Cuv said, they could include the plot but leave out the rules-breaking battles, I wouldn't have a problem.
I pretty much completely disagree. First of all there seems to be some myth that Ascension fights are super hard which isn't true at all. They definitely aren't anywhere near Tactics levels. Hardest fight at the level you are meant to do it in both BG1+BG2(Ascension) is probably Ael'Telac, that is if you don't cheese it obviously. Demogorgon, which is the "Ael'Telac" of ToB, isn't anywhere near as difficult even with Ascension.
Also I really don't understand how these fights are any more "rule-breaking" than anything else in BG2, if anything vanilla fights are rule-breaking considering eg. how weak at that point almost a god-like creature Amelissan is. This especially ridiculous about fight like improved Gromnir which would have hard time making it to the top20 hardest BG fights list.
So there definitely isn't any need for metagaming to beat Ascension fights as you suggest. I personally make a point to not cheese fights because it simply isn't fun for me, and I had no problem with them even though I hadn't played BG2 for a long time.
Comments
And, BG2EE is intended to be the "fixed", definitive version of the original BG2 -- which implies "restoring" (in a sense) content that was originally intended by the original authors.
On that basis, I want it. If I'm wrong, I'm willing to be corrected.
So, whichever way, players will always have the choice of the ending they want. It's a matter of selecting which one's going to be there by default, and Ascension seems like the best choice by far.
What I don't get is why this is even an issue in the first place. Just install the mod into BG2EE when it comes out and you can enjoy the game and the mod. Why must you impose a hard-coded version of the mod upon everyone else who wants to enjoy just an Enhanced Edition of the original game and its storyline?
If Ascension is not added to BG2:EE, it is very possible that ipad players will never play it.
Therefore, I think that they should be given a separate poll seeing as they will not have mods to give them a choice concerning whether or not they wish to use Ascension.
Anyway let's review what Ascension changes apart from the fights(as well as I remeber them):
* Sarevok recognizes his sword if you have it and it will be upgraded to +4 so it's actually useful in ToB
* Some added dialogue to both Imoen and Sarevok written by David Gaider who worked on both BG2 and ToB as game designer and started working on Ascension, with some help from the community, pretty much as soon as ToB was out.
* Ability to influence Sarevok alignment through that dialogue.
* Good aligned Balthazar doesn't actually just outright try to murder you(!) but you can actually have a meaningful chat with him.
* Amelissan summons Irenicus and Bodhi for final chat and fight. Ability to influence Bodhi. Imoen slayer form change.
* Final fight changed to much more personal and interesting. Instead of Amelissan summoning high level mobs you get to face your siblings again, one of them potentially for the 3rd time.
Would be interesting to know vanilla without these changes is actually a better game here.
Additionally, it'll be a pleasant surprise to the majority of players without the know-how to install mods, for whom there's simply no choice to be had and BG2:EE's role is to provide them with the best possible experience out of the box.
Make the game not only easy to mod, but make it easy to play those mods.
ps: as for the 2nd option..come on! the game is faceroll if you reduce the difficulty slider,while there are no hard enough moments if you play in a way that makes sense lorewise(aka with full group,and equipped with the best gear you have and a balanced party-the only way to make the game difficult is by fictional rp/powergame limitations-solo runs, magic hater runs->wizard slayer pc,no casters in group and such)
From a creationary stand point, good content sometimes gets cut in favor of a better end product. Was that the case here? I don't know. I certainly hope any bug fixes that came with the mod are addressed, since I gather ToB was a buggy mess at release, but I'm not going to get particularly attached to the content since the contractual obligations may very well restrict that they can make that many changes.
There is also the issue of IP ownership of such mods. Certainly the last thing I want to see is all the ascension content added and then Gaider turns around and files a lawsuit on the grounds that someone is making money off his mod.
As for questions of content... setting aside all subjective evaluations of what Ascension contributes, there are some incongruities in the original ToB storyline. Namely:
1. You have to fight Balthazar regardless of your alignment. This makes no sense in RP terms, because he has no reason to attack Good-aligned characters who are actively fighting to stop the prophecy.
2. The final battle against Amelyssan - and, indeed, the final battle of the Bhaalspawn Saga - lacks a clear thematic connection to anything that's come before. Amelyssan summons Elemental Princes and Planetars as backup: formidable opponents, sure, but they're not directly linked to either you or your enemy.
3. If Imoen is a Bhaalspawn, she should be experiencing the same powers and problems as your protagonist as she grows stronger. But her progression is abortive and incomplete (especially if she's been with you all along and your levels are pretty much the same).
4. For all that the Slayer is treated as an ultimate expression of Bhaalspawn power, it doesn't actually evolve or change as your character gains levels. In fact, you could easily reach a point where your own capabilities outstrip the Slayer's.
Whatever else Ascension does, its story-related contributions address these three flaws and corrects them:
2. With Amelyssan controlling most of Bhaal's essence, she's able to call up enemies from your past to stop you, ranging from Sarevok to Irenicus and Bodhi to the Five. It's a culmination of everything you've been through since the first game. (Also, Evil-aligned characters can get their Balthazar counterpart by persuading Bodhi - she of the level-draining claws - to join them.)
3. Imoen's growing powers more closely resemble the player's own, including her eventual Slayer form
4. The PC's Slayer form becomes even more powerful at certain XP marks. At the highest tier, you can access to a different form: the Ravager. It makes the Slayer look like a Xvart.
So I don't think it's a stretch to say that there aren't any story-related reasons to prefer the original ToB to Ascension - the faults in the original exist, and this particular mod is able to address them.
The arguments against its inclusion seem to be based on some kind of preservative principle, ie: "Players should be able to experience the original ToB!" Well... it's not like BG2EE magically deletes the original ToB. You want to see how it worked the first time around, go play the original game. The whole point of the EE project is to impose certain improvements such as the 1PP mod - and if you don't like it, by all means, go back to the original. It's still there.
Also I really don't understand how these fights are any more "rule-breaking" than anything else in BG2, if anything vanilla fights are rule-breaking considering eg. how weak at that point almost a god-like creature Amelissan is. This especially ridiculous about fight like improved Gromnir which would have hard time making it to the top20 hardest BG fights list.
So there definitely isn't any need for metagaming to beat Ascension fights as you suggest. I personally make a point to not cheese fights because it simply isn't fun for me, and I had no problem with them even though I hadn't played BG2 for a long time.