Speaking only for myself, my greatest disappointment with the Enhanced Edition is that said enhancements have been almost exclusively on the level of gameplay/mechanics. Yes, there were bugs that needed to be squashed, and that's great, but for all that BG is admired and praised, let's at least acknowledge that there are some aspects of the story and characters that could have been touched up. If we trust Beamdog to create new NPCs and address gameplay-related issues, we should have the same trust that they could have improved the plot and existing NPCs.
Couldn't agree more. BG:EE is a missed opportunity on so many levels. Not integrating Ascension would be another one.
I don't want you-know-who turning against me in the final battle, just because he's still evil.
Not a problem: he only turns against you if you forced him to use a geas when you recruited him. If you accept him without making him swear a binding oath, you either convert him to Chaotic Good (Good PC) or agree with him when he talks about what the future could hold for the two of you (Evil PC).
@guston If you add something to the game that leads the player to discoer about Twisted Rune existence, then it is adding. If you mess up with already existing dialouge or content, it's changing. So, about TR, there can be added quest that leads you to them, but their reactions at you finding them ought to stay as they are. Not changing dialogue/interraction/battle agains TR.
I don't want you-know-who turning against me in the final battle, just because he's still evil.
Not a problem: he only turns against you if you forced him to use a geas when you recruited him. If you accept him without making him swear a binding oath, you either convert him to Chaotic Good (Good PC) or agree with him when he talks about what the future could hold for the two of you (Evil PC).
I don't want you-know-who turning against me in the final battle, just because he's still evil.
Not a problem: he only turns against you if you forced him to use a geas when you recruited him. If you accept him without making him swear a binding oath, you either convert him to Chaotic Good (Good PC) or agree with him when he talks about what the future could hold for the two of you (Evil PC).
I did not use a geas and he still turned on me...
Did you convert him to CG or have the talk about the future with an evil Charname?
Did you convert him to CG or have the talk about the future with an evil Charname?
Exactly so - even if you avoid the geas, Sarevok still needs to have alignment compatibility with your PC. If you're Good, you need to use your conversations with him to convert him to Chaotic Good. If you're Evil, just encourage his evil tendencies and promise him a place at your side. In either scenario, when Amelyssan makes him an offer, he'll refuse and stay with you.
Did you convert him to CG or have the talk about the future with an evil Charname?
Exactly so - even if you avoid the geas, Sarevok still needs to have alignment compatibility with your PC. If you're Good, you need to use your conversations with him to convert him to Chaotic Good. If you're Evil, just encourage his evil tendencies and promise him a place at your side. In either scenario, when Amelyssan makes him an offer, he'll refuse and stay with you.
So my neutral sorcerer will to fight him nevertheless?
I've just been playing it for the first time and really like it, but I purposely built a strong party for it. If it was a default part of ToB then it might limit how you play the game, less whimsy for one thing! I like the added content though, maybe new difficulty options could be added instead?
So my neutral sorcerer will to fight him nevertheless?
True Neutral? Hmm, that's a good question. I'd say err on the side of caution and convert him to Good - that's usually the direction most "neutral" characters end up going anyway...
The more I read of this thread the more in favor of including Ascension I am. It seems like the major argument against is the purists who want to play the game in its original form. Nothing wrong with wanting that, but if that's what you want, the game you want is already available. The goal of the Enhanced Editions should be to release the best version game possible... the idea of being a "purist" is already completely at odds with an "enhanced" edition. If most people agree that the plot content in Ascension is better than the original, it should be included.
I think the biggest argument I've seen against it is that the battles are too difficult for the challenge that BG normally poses, forgetting that the enhanced difficulty is a completely separate component from the Ascension mod.
The more I read of this thread the more in favor of including Ascension I am. It seems like the major argument against is the purists who want to play the game in its original form. Nothing wrong with wanting that, but if that's what you want, the game you want is already available. The goal of the Enhanced Editions should be to release the best version game possible... the idea of being a "purist" is already completely at odds with an "enhanced" edition. If most people agree that the plot content in Ascension is better than the original, it should be included.
Best version according to whom?
As I understand it the mission of the enhanced edition is bring the original game into the 21st century allowing people to dl & play on todays machines without figuring out the install details of a laundry list of seperate 3rd party mods - My understanding is the people/corporations who own the rights to the game have agreed to allow this to happen provided the original is preserved - with the enhancements limited to specific areas.
I suspect there is no way that Ascension is going to be added at this stage of development regardless of what theories or rhetoric is bandied about in this thread or elsewhere and that the best Ascension fans can hope for is an official DLC and/or a third party modding it to work with this enhanced edition sometime after the official release which of course suits me fine since my take is that it should be done that way anyway...
I take back what I said about biggest arguments. I think the biggest argument people have made against including this content is a kind of defeated mentality about whether or not it's actually feasible.
Perhaps the poll should have included a "Yes this would be great, but it will never happen" option, because I suspect that a fair number of the people who voted "no" would have liked the idea if it were a realistic possibility.
To the "purists" out there: Get over yourselves, you have no right to come here claiming a moral high ground against mod users when we're all waiting for what is basically a gigantic unofficial mod to an original game. I do however suspect that you're far too delusional to realize this fact and will just continue to spew your "purist" nonsense about how a buggy/unbalanced original game is better than a perfectly working modded game. To clarify - I don't care for mods much myself but I'd rather have a 100% final product instead of a 85% final product, even if it means adding modded content.
Perhaps you should make your comment less general. I have advertised that I am a purist in this thread and others multiple times each, and I don't recall claiming any kind of a "moral high ground" (not that I recall morals entering the conversation anyhow before you decided to add them for a mysterious reason) "against" mod users. I can easily say that mod users have no right to come here claiming that more mods should be mandatory when we're all waiting for what is basically a gigantic unofficial mod (That is not effecting the original game).
You seem quite angry, and if any group would have reason to be angry, it would be "us purists that spew our purist nonsense about how a buggy/unbalanced original game is better than a perfectly working modded game."
First of all, I happen to believe that the game is already perfect. Second, you come into this thread and start taking the high ground against purists because we like playing the game in it's original form? It's always so nice to see someone come in here and provoke forum users while deciding not to read the users' posts in their entirety.
Perhaps you've forgotten that whether or not the mod is included in the release, you can just download it and install it yourself? Nothing is stopping you from using as many mods as you like, so the only issue here is whether or not you "mod users on your moral high ground" want to force mods down "us purists" throats with no real reason other than saving yourself a 2.5 second download and being happy that other players are unhappy.
The next time you decide to make a provocative comment against a group of users that have varying perspectives within that group, at least take the extra minutes to read the entire posts instead of simply picking what you want and then referring to everything we say as nonsense. It's just a courtesy, and it's something that your comment leads me to believe that you lack in spades.
The next time you decide to make a provocative comment against a group of users that have varying perspectives within that group, at least take the extra minutes to read the entire posts instead of simply picking what you want and then referring to everything we say as nonsense. It's just a courtesy, and it's something that your comment leads me to believe that you lack in spades.
But....this is the internet....isn't that what everyone is supposed to do???? A pinch of rhetoric plus a pound of hyperbole presented by a battalion of strawmen (and ladies) with a sprinkle of condescension on top?(insert snarky smiley face here)
I take back what I said about biggest arguments. I think the biggest argument people have made against including this content is a kind of defeated mentality about whether or not it's actually feasible.
Perhaps the poll should have included a "Yes this would be great, but it will never happen" option, because I suspect that a fair number of the people who voted "no" would have liked the idea if it were a realistic possibility.
I wouldn't call it a defeated mentality - I'd call it reality vs fantasy...and I didn't see any indication that any of the people who voted no only did so becuase it wasn't going to happen - of those that commented it was pretty clear that whether they liked Ascension or not they mostly just felt it should remain a mod that people could use or not as they chose rather than have it forced on everyone regardless of what they thought.
A fairly large portion of the "No" voters opened their arguments by saying "there's no point in asking for this because they can't change the original game's content". A bunch of them also didn't like the idea in general, but there are likely enough who would like the idea that it would be useful to know how it breaks down.
Hey now, I've been reading along; I'm not saying it was originally planned content anymore, I understand that it was David Gaider working with the fans to decide what should and should not be included in the mod. But I don't think "I'm voting because I'm ignorant" is a particularly useful polling option.
I'm not knocking nihilism; but it is a more useful piece of information to understand why some people vote no. If someone votes yes because they're misinformed about what Ascension is, does there really need to be an option? "Yes, include it because I mistakenly believe that this content was originally planned and not created in tandem with fans"?
Meanwhile, "No, there's no point in asking for this because they're contractually obligated not to alter existing content" is a fundamentally different argument than "No, I don't want this included because I think it would be better as a mod".
In kind of the same way, "No, there isn't enough time to do it right and I'd rather they spent their energies elsewhere" tells something about why a person doesn't want it.
I agree that the poll is skewed (to begin with, the improved battles being an implicit part of the inclusion of the mod is misleading because it makes the incorrect assumption that Improved Battles was a part of the Ascension component), but I'd like to see more negative options that get at the "why", rather than the "what".
As I understand it the mission of the enhanced edition is bring the original game into the 21st century allowing people to dl & play on todays machines without figuring out the install details of a laundry list of seperate 3rd party mods - My understanding is the people/corporations who own the rights to the game have agreed to allow this to happen provided the original is preserved - with the enhancements limited to specific areas.
If that were true, why add three new characters? Why create The Black Pits or Adventure Y? These are already additions that go beyond the scope of simply making the game playable for contemporary devices...
My understanding is the people/corporations who own the rights to the game have agreed to allow this to happen provided the original is preserved - with the enhancements limited to specific areas.
If that were true, why add three new characters? Why create The Black Pits or Adventure Y? These are already additions that go beyond the scope of simply making the game playable for contemporary devices...
That would be the part about enhancements limited to specific areas - this is also the part that opens the door to both free and paid for DLC after the original release assuming the release is successful enough to warrant it (which I suspect it will be). This is probably a fairly large part of what Beamdog gets for doing this work - well besides the part they do just from the goodness of their souls...
If they did not handle it in this sort of manner then what we would be looking at would be a massive unofficial 3rd party mod and not an official BG enhanced edition - you can't call it official BG and then allow massive changes to the original game no matter where the motivation for those changes come from - it's the original game that the owners own - too many changes and that ownership becomes cloudy - why would they intentionally do that?
If they did not handle it in this sort of manner then what we would be looking at would be a massive unofficial 3rd party mod and not an official BG enhanced edition - you can't call it official BG and then allow massive changes to the original game no matter where the motivation for those changes come from - it's the original game that the owners own - too many changes and that ownership becomes cloudy - why would they intentionally do that?
I think you're getting too caught up in the wording. The EE is "official" because Beamdog secured permission from Atari, BioWare and all the other involved parties - meanwhile, the fact that it runs on ToB's engine is already a massive change that affects every single aspect of the game. Just because BGT and Tutu did it first doesn't mean the EE isn't a departure from the original as is.
And it's worth repeating that this isn't about having too many changes or the incorporation of too many third-person mods: this is about adding material from a component uniquely situated within the modding community (by virtue of its connection to ToB's lead designer) for the net purpose of enhancing the game's climactic act. It's about doing the barest of minimums to make ToB more appealing to those players who consider it a rushed and unsatisfying finale.
I think you're getting too caught up in the wording. The EE is "official" because Beamdog secured permission from Atari, BioWare and all the other involved parties - meanwhile, the fact that it runs on ToB's engine is already a massive change that affects every single aspect of the game. Just because BGT and Tutu did it first doesn't mean the EE isn't a departure from the original as is.
And it's worth repeating that this isn't about having too many changes or the incorporation of too many third-person mods: this is about adding material from a component uniquely situated within the modding community (by virtue of its connection to ToB's lead designer) for the net purpose of enhancing the game's climactic act. It's about doing the barest of minimums to make ToB more appealing to those players who consider it a rushed and unsatisfying finale.
But the change to TOBs engine is one that was approved by the contract - it's part of the enhancements that were agreed to by all parties who own a stake in these properties.
Changing the original TOB - which these parties own pieces of - and replacing substantial parts of it with a mod they do NOT own pieces of - and going through all the legal shenanigans required to do so - for the sole purpose of making it more appealing to those players who prefer it to the original is something entirely different and as I see it (and I suspect those who own pieces of these properties might see it) there is no compelling reason to do so when the mod can simply be made available to be added after release for those who choose to use it.
Think about it - do you really think anyone who prefers Ascension to the original TOB is not going to buy this game if it is not included in the original package on Nov 30 and ends up only being available later as either a mod or DLC?
I certainly do not expect it to be released on November 30th release as only BGEE is being released. Anyway the presence of the mods I prefer did not stop me from preordering BGEE in the first few days it became available and will not stop me from preordering BG2EE as well.
The modding community is alive and well. Actually, with the release of the EEs we're seeing some old "retired" modders showing interest once more.
Once a Weidu compatible with the EE is released, it won't take long for the mods to follow, I expect the most popular ones to be available within 3 to 6 months after release.
Also with the improved mod support of the EEs we'll have, with time, mods doing things that were impossible previously.
So no, I don't expect the presence of a mod in the release of any of the EEs to lower sales. Just take a look around the forums on the amount of people that declared they'll wait for the release of a compatble BG1 NPC Project before they start playing BGEE. And then take a look on how many of those preordered anyway. Myself included.
Comments
I don't want you-know-who turning against me in the final battle, just because he's still evil.
As I understand it the mission of the enhanced edition is bring the original game into the 21st century allowing people to dl & play on todays machines without figuring out the install details of a laundry list of seperate 3rd party mods - My understanding is the people/corporations who own the rights to the game have agreed to allow this to happen provided the original is preserved - with the enhancements limited to specific areas.
I suspect there is no way that Ascension is going to be added at this stage of development regardless of what theories or rhetoric is bandied about in this thread or elsewhere and that the best Ascension fans can hope for is an official DLC and/or a third party modding it to work with this enhanced edition sometime after the official release which of course suits me fine since my take is that it should be done that way anyway...
Perhaps the poll should have included a "Yes this would be great, but it will never happen" option, because I suspect that a fair number of the people who voted "no" would have liked the idea if it were a realistic possibility.
Perhaps you should make your comment less general. I have advertised that I am a purist in this thread and others multiple times each, and I don't recall claiming any kind of a "moral high ground" (not that I recall morals entering the conversation anyhow before you decided to add them for a mysterious reason) "against" mod users. I can easily say that mod users have no right to come here claiming that more mods should be mandatory when we're all waiting for what is basically a gigantic unofficial mod (That is not effecting the original game).
You seem quite angry, and if any group would have reason to be angry, it would be "us purists that spew our purist nonsense about how a buggy/unbalanced original game is better than a perfectly working modded game."
First of all, I happen to believe that the game is already perfect. Second, you come into this thread and start taking the high ground against purists because we like playing the game in it's original form? It's always so nice to see someone come in here and provoke forum users while deciding not to read the users' posts in their entirety.
Perhaps you've forgotten that whether or not the mod is included in the release, you can just download it and install it yourself? Nothing is stopping you from using as many mods as you like, so the only issue here is whether or not you "mod users on your moral high ground" want to force mods down "us purists" throats with no real reason other than saving yourself a 2.5 second download and being happy that other players are unhappy.
The next time you decide to make a provocative comment against a group of users that have varying perspectives within that group, at least take the extra minutes to read the entire posts instead of simply picking what you want and then referring to everything we say as nonsense. It's just a courtesy, and it's something that your comment leads me to believe that you lack in spades.
Are there currently many/any noteworthy mods incompatible with ascension at the moment? A list of any you know would be appreciated.
Does not abide.
I'm not knocking nihilism; but it is a more useful piece of information to understand why some people vote no. If someone votes yes because they're misinformed about what Ascension is, does there really need to be an option? "Yes, include it because I mistakenly believe that this content was originally planned and not created in tandem with fans"?
Meanwhile, "No, there's no point in asking for this because they're contractually obligated not to alter existing content" is a fundamentally different argument than "No, I don't want this included because I think it would be better as a mod".
In kind of the same way, "No, there isn't enough time to do it right and I'd rather they spent their energies elsewhere" tells something about why a person doesn't want it.
I agree that the poll is skewed (to begin with, the improved battles being an implicit part of the inclusion of the mod is misleading because it makes the incorrect assumption that Improved Battles was a part of the Ascension component), but I'd like to see more negative options that get at the "why", rather than the "what".
I mean, that's just your opinion, or whatever.
If they did not handle it in this sort of manner then what we would be looking at would be a massive unofficial 3rd party mod and not an official BG enhanced edition - you can't call it official BG and then allow massive changes to the original game no matter where the motivation for those changes come from - it's the original game that the owners own - too many changes and that ownership becomes cloudy - why would they intentionally do that?
And it's worth repeating that this isn't about having too many changes or the incorporation of too many third-person mods: this is about adding material from a component uniquely situated within the modding community (by virtue of its connection to ToB's lead designer) for the net purpose of enhancing the game's climactic act. It's about doing the barest of minimums to make ToB more appealing to those players who consider it a rushed and unsatisfying finale.
Changing the original TOB - which these parties own pieces of - and replacing substantial parts of it with a mod they do NOT own pieces of - and going through all the legal shenanigans required to do so - for the sole purpose of making it more appealing to those players who prefer it to the original is something entirely different and as I see it (and I suspect those who own pieces of these properties might see it) there is no compelling reason to do so when the mod can simply be made available to be added after release for those who choose to use it.
Think about it - do you really think anyone who prefers Ascension to the original TOB is not going to buy this game if it is not included in the original package on Nov 30 and ends up only being available later as either a mod or DLC?
The modding community is alive and well. Actually, with the release of the EEs we're seeing some old "retired" modders showing interest once more.
Once a Weidu compatible with the EE is released, it won't take long for the mods to follow, I expect the most popular ones to be available within 3 to 6 months after release.
Also with the improved mod support of the EEs we'll have, with time, mods doing things that were impossible previously.
So no, I don't expect the presence of a mod in the release of any of the EEs to lower sales. Just take a look around the forums on the amount of people that declared they'll wait for the release of a compatble BG1 NPC Project before they start playing BGEE. And then take a look on how many of those preordered anyway. Myself included.