Also I really don't understand how these fights are any more "rule-breaking" ...
... the final fight is less rule-breaking. It's more an illusion... but for every spell one of the those in the final battle casts... they actually have it memorized and it gets removed. Yes, they can really run out of spells.
Is BG2:EE going to be enhanced or not? This is a major enhancement that iPad (and in the future android) users will want. They can't mod as easy as the pc users, are people arguing to deny them?
Is BG2:EE going to be enhanced or not? This is a major enhancement that iPad (and in the future android) users will want. They can't mod as easy as the pc users, are people arguing to deny them?
I don't think anyone is arguing against having an option where you can select in-game between the base TOB and Ascension (or components thereof).
However, if you are talking about re-writing the base game from Vanilla TOB to Ascension then you have to concede that there are a variety of opinions on the mod (some want Vanilla TOB, some want only Ascension story-content, some want improved battles but watered down, some want full improved battles, etc.) You can't make a "think about the children" argument for X if the children want mutually exclusive W, X, Y or Z.
So when you talk about denying them the improved battles, for example, you will get a ton of blow-back from people who are being 'forced' to take the improved battles and don't want them. There isn't a single scenario that all "users will want."
To go slightly off topic regarding the difficulty of games, you can look at something like Demon's Souls which received widespread acclaim when it was released precisely because it offered immense challenge and gave gamers a magnificent sense of accomplishment when they beat sections of the game. The game consequently received a lot of media coverage further boosting sales. People went out to buy Demon's Souls precisely because of its difficulty reputation.
Rather than a deterrent, the challenges that elements of Ascension could add should be seen as positive.
Good tactical mods like SCS still lose to good content mods--and even some inexplicably terrible content mods--by a healthy margin when you look at download numbers. And it's certainly not due to SCS being bad or not customizable enough--I regard SCS, in most ways, as a pretty good collection of best practices when it comes to building a mod. It's simply that when it comes to BG/BG2, most players prefer additional content and roleplaying opportunities to tougher tactical challenges.
Good tactical mods like SCS still lose to good content mods--and even some inexplicably terrible content mods
I'm not bitter. Honest.
--by a healthy margin when you look at download numbers. And it's certainly not due to SCS being bad or not customizable enough--I regard SCS, in most ways, as a pretty good collection of best practices when it comes to building a mod.
What are the other ways?
It's simply that when it comes to BG/BG2, most players prefer additional content and roleplaying opportunities to tougher tactical challenges.
It's also a hell of a lot easier. Obviously SCS was a lot of work, but if I compare the difficulty of writing a given combat encounter with the difficulty of actually scripting new content (as in my fairly modest content mod, Wheels of Prophecy) then I can really see why good-quality content mods are thin on the ground. (Bad quality content mods are another story.)
There's really no reason to not include the story elements of Ascension. I would dare to venture that it objectively makes the climax more immersive and dramatic, and the epilogues more rewarding. Your party composition, alignment, and dialogue choices can affect how the final battles play out. The epilogues for each NPC will differ wildly based on how you interacted with them! It's genius.
There's really no reason to not include the story elements of Ascension. I would dare to venture that it objectively makes the climax more immersive and dramatic, and the epilogues more rewarding. Your party composition, alignment, and dialogue choices can affect how the final battles play out. The epilogues for each NPC will differ wildly based on how you interacted with them! It's genius.
Agreed. It's clear that the mechanical aspects of Ascension (ie: the ones relating to gameplay/difficulty) are controversial and there's a clear lack of consensus, but I honestly can't see why anyone would be against including the story content - it substantially improves the last act of the game.
I love Ascension and install the mod everytime I play ToB. But the very simple answer is that it's a mod and can be installed or not installed as an individual sees fit. I have no desire to force my mod choices on others involuntarily. All individuals have a right to enjoy the game and story play through as originally released...
This!
To force own mod choices on others is simply selfish.
Perhaps another way of going about this would be to make Ascension an official DLC. Players would then have the option to purchase the DLC or not. I would be happy to pay for officially supported DLC content such as Ascension.
^ This! That is what I am hoping they decide to do. Make it a DLC that if fully integrated. Then players can choose whether or not to get it. Everyone is happy.
I love Ascension and install the mod everytime I play ToB. But the very simple answer is that it's a mod and can be installed or not installed as an individual sees fit. I have no desire to force my mod choices on others involuntarily. All individuals have a right to enjoy the game and story play through as originally released...
This!
To force own mod choices on others is simply selfish.
That argument can go more than one way can it not? If someone does not like BG2 EE which includes Ascension you can then play the original BG2 from GoG and vice versa.
You're too smart to really believe that your counterargument is valid. Admit it :-p
Perhaps another way of going about this would be to make Ascension an official DLC. Players would then have the option to purchase the DLC or not. I would be happy to pay for officially supported DLC content such as Ascension.
^ This! That is what I am hoping they decide to do. Make it a DLC that if fully integrated. Then players can choose whether or not to get it. Everyone is happy.
That would work for me, but only if the DLC can be as easily removed as it can be added.
Ascension as a (preferably free) DLC module would be good. However, I'm not sure how Overhaul could do that, seeing as they didn't actually make it. I'm sure they couldn't charge for it, since I'm pretty certain that would have a ton of legal issues.
Honestly, if the vast majority of people don't play with mods (which is true, I think, statistically), you might as well include it anyway, since most of them won't notice and at worst they get a better ending.
Yes, it should. My point being, why exactly do we need a BG2EE if not for things like this? It's not like there already isn't a version of BG2 on GOG thats perfectly playable on modern systems. If I wanted to play BG2 I could always get it there. No, I want something better, and if there is even a slight chance of getting this mod included in the main game, go for it. I think it would boost sales a lot. With BG1, you could say you have a new engine, what is the selling point of BG2EE exactly?
Then again, I'm the kind of person disappointed by the fact that due to contract limitations, so little can be done with content in both games. When I first heard of BGEE, I was like "Hey finally some professionals can take things like UB a NPC Mod and include them in the main game" Or at least do something similar, the game really needs it. You can see the reactions over the Internet regarding BGEE, and it is not something that I would call a huge success. I have bought simply because now I have to deal with less mods than before and thats enough, for me (but I was hoping I wouldn't have to deal with mods at all, never mind, I'll wait a few more months). But for other people, there is not enough of added value to the game to justify the purchase - they a) already own it or b) can get it cheaper on GoG and add the mods. When you look at re-releases of Ni No Kuni or Persona and then compare it to the re-release of BGEE... So yeah, anything you can add to the game aside from bug fixing should be added.
I'm getting real tired of seeing the "Add it because you can always go back to the old version". That argument functions just as well in the reverse: "Don't add it because anyone wanting to play Ascension can go install it on the old version".
Ascension as a (preferably free) DLC module would be good. However, I'm not sure how Overhaul could do that, seeing as they didn't actually make it. I'm sure they couldn't charge for it, since I'm pretty certain that would have a ton of legal issues.
Honestly, if the vast majority of people don't play with mods (which is true, I think, statistically), you might as well include it anyway, since most of them won't notice and at worst they get a better ending.
They can't use anyone else's mod without the creator's permission. For non-content mods, they can recreate the bug fixes, etc. without permission but they can't simply take someone else's content mod and incorporate it.
Now someone who distributed the mod for free presumably wouldn't object to the usage of it as additional content for the game but even if they did Overhaul could come to an agreement to share profits on a for pay DLC of Ascension or some upfront $, etc.
I don't see much standing in the way of this if Overhaul is interested...except their contract limitations from Atari, WoTC, etc.
I love Ascension and install the mod everytime I play ToB. But the very simple answer is that it's a mod and can be installed or not installed as an individual sees fit. I have no desire to force my mod choices on others involuntarily. All individuals have a right to enjoy the game and story play through as originally released...
This!
To force own mod choices on others is simply selfish.
The difference is, Ascension was created by one of the original writers, because of shortcomings in the original ToB. So really, it's more of a patch than a mod.
I love Ascension and install the mod everytime I play ToB. But the very simple answer is that it's a mod and can be installed or not installed as an individual sees fit. I have no desire to force my mod choices on others involuntarily. All individuals have a right to enjoy the game and story play through as originally released...
This!
To force own mod choices on others is simply selfish.
The difference is, Ascension was created by one of the original writers, because of shortcomings in the original ToB. So really, it's more of a patch than a mod.
We've already established Ascension was not cut content that was restored, so at best it is George Lucas style re-imagining.
I love Ascension and install the mod everytime I play ToB. But the very simple answer is that it's a mod and can be installed or not installed as an individual sees fit. I have no desire to force my mod choices on others involuntarily. All individuals have a right to enjoy the game and story play through as originally released...
This!
To force own mod choices on others is simply selfish.
The difference is, Ascension was created by one of the original writers, because of shortcomings in the original ToB. So really, it's more of a patch than a mod.
We've already established Ascension was not cut content that was restored, so at best it is George Lucas style re-imagining.
"George Lucas style" would mean tinkering with something that wasn't broken.
The original ToB had a broken plot. Ascension fixed it. It's irelevent that it wasn't "cut content". Bug fixes never are.
The majority of players don't play mods. And among those that do...
One question, if you can answer it correctly I will change my stance and support the non inclusion of Ascension.
*How many players have illegally downloaded a modded (or should I say cracked version) of BG EE and deprived Overhaul games of additional funds?*
I imagine you cannot answer that question, however you have made a similar assertion concerning that the majority of players do not play mods.
I can look at sales of BG2, then compare them to the download counts of my BG2 Fixpack and BG2 Tweaks, which are staples on most mod recommendation lists. Given that the numbers are orders of magnitude apart, it's an assertion I feel very comfortable making.
Does the poll allow for "Include the original version David Gaider released" no dis-respect to the modder that improved the mod with his permission, but I remember there being a massive difference in difficulty between David Gaider's release and the current version.
For me it's when that difficulty tips the scale vs roleplaying - so to win that final battle I had to have a certain number/type of spell memorized per character. So if I thought the roleplaying aspect/story was that character X would stand off against character Y - it just couldn't be done, because he didn't have a chance in hell of killing him without that spell.
I know the counter-argument is "it's a party based game", but my priority is roleplaying, so if a massive spoiler poll was done asking how, in what order, and with what tactics did you win that final battle - I'll bet there would be some similiar experiences there; which is kind of counter to the unique roleplaying experince that BG should (IMHO) finish on.
The difference is, Ascension was created by one of the original writers, because of shortcomings in the original ToB. So really, it's more of a patch than a mod.
Maybe you should read this thread from the start.
Besides, I'm not saying that people should not use it, but rather that should be kept an optional mod (or DLC or whatever).
I love Ascension and install the mod everytime I play ToB. But the very simple answer is that it's a mod and can be installed or not installed as an individual sees fit. I have no desire to force my mod choices on others involuntarily. All individuals have a right to enjoy the game and story play through as originally released...
This!
To force own mod choices on others is simply selfish.
The difference is, Ascension was created by one of the original writers, because of shortcomings in the original ToB. So really, it's more of a patch than a mod.
We've already established Ascension was not cut content that was restored, so at best it is George Lucas style re-imagining.
"George Lucas style" would mean tinkering with something that wasn't broken.
The original ToB had a broken plot. Ascension fixed it. It's irelevent that it wasn't "cut content". Bug fixes never are.
A broken plot? Really? It's a bunch of whining about B-B-But Imoen is a bhaalspawn, she should have cure light wounds and slayer form! My waifu Sarevok should be Good! Mah Slayer form should be better! I don't want to fight cosmic beings for the final fight, I want a bunch of has-beens I already killed!
Comments
However, if you are talking about re-writing the base game from Vanilla TOB to Ascension then you have to concede that there are a variety of opinions on the mod (some want Vanilla TOB, some want only Ascension story-content, some want improved battles but watered down, some want full improved battles, etc.) You can't make a "think about the children" argument for X if the children want mutually exclusive W, X, Y or Z.
So when you talk about denying them the improved battles, for example, you will get a ton of blow-back from people who are being 'forced' to take the improved battles and don't want them. There isn't a single scenario that all "users will want."
To force own mod choices on others is simply selfish.
Even in the case of the added characters, you have the very simple option of generally ignoring them.
Honestly, if the vast majority of people don't play with mods (which is true, I think, statistically), you might as well include it anyway, since most of them won't notice and at worst they get a better ending.
Then again, I'm the kind of person disappointed by the fact that due to contract limitations, so little can be done with content in both games. When I first heard of BGEE, I was like "Hey finally some professionals can take things like UB a NPC Mod and include them in the main game" Or at least do something similar, the game really needs it. You can see the reactions over the Internet regarding BGEE, and it is not something that I would call a huge success. I have bought simply because now I have to deal with less mods than before and thats enough, for me (but I was hoping I wouldn't have to deal with mods at all, never mind, I'll wait a few more months). But for other people, there is not enough of added value to the game to justify the purchase - they a) already own it or b) can get it cheaper on GoG and add the mods. When you look at re-releases of Ni No Kuni or Persona and then compare it to the re-release of BGEE... So yeah, anything you can add to the game aside from bug fixing should be added.
Now someone who distributed the mod for free presumably wouldn't object to the usage of it as additional content for the game but even if they did Overhaul could come to an agreement to share profits on a for pay DLC of Ascension or some upfront $, etc.
I don't see much standing in the way of this if Overhaul is interested...except their contract limitations from Atari, WoTC, etc.
The original ToB had a broken plot. Ascension fixed it. It's irelevent that it wasn't "cut content". Bug fixes never are.
For me it's when that difficulty tips the scale vs roleplaying - so to win that final battle I had to have a certain number/type of spell memorized per character. So if I thought the roleplaying aspect/story was that character X would stand off against character Y - it just couldn't be done, because he didn't have a chance in hell of killing him without that spell.
I know the counter-argument is "it's a party based game", but my priority is roleplaying, so if a massive spoiler poll was done asking how, in what order, and with what tactics did you win that final battle - I'll bet there would be some similiar experiences there; which is kind of counter to the unique roleplaying experince that BG should (IMHO) finish on.
Besides, I'm not saying that people should not use it, but rather that should be kept an optional mod (or DLC or whatever).