@Bhaaldog First, you just don't get why I made my request in the first place. Whatever, you don't need to. All you need to know is that I no longer consider this request possible, basing on critical estimation of such factors as the contract.
I have already stated the reasons why I'm against it. Hell, I have done it probably weeks/months ago since I clearly recall speaking my mind in this topic in the past. But I'll state it again, especially for you. Ascension, aside from plot, provides very challenging content practically impossible to beat for many players. In fact, it's content practically forces powerbuilding the party, so it destroys one thing that Baldur's Gate is loved for: freedom to play the way you like. Sure, you can nerf the battles especially for BG2:EE but that won't be "that" Ascension anymore. And finally, requiring people to install a mod is clearly too much. Also, final Ascension fight is way too over the top for me. Killing my enemies once or two is ENOUGH. I don't want the thrid time, since right then I can't take my former enemies seriously anymore... Those are reasons I don't want it implemented.
The only good reason for implementing Ascension is that there is no guarantee for multi-platform mod for BG2:EE. That's it.
Sorry fot dissapoint you, but I'm not like the majority - I'm not going to be overly polite in situations where I see stating my opinion bluntly fit. I'm not afraid of speaking my mind.
Yep, I've used it, that's for sure. The reason why I made such request is different from reasons why majority of users on this forums want to include this request. *Reasons* for making requests are important. There is difference between "I want to fix something I consider broken in the game" and "I want mod to be implemented and I don't care if it is too hard for other people". Don't tell me that you can't see the difference.*
I never called you "b****t" (if anything, I called your argumentation). That was merely my response to statement that I don't have right to judge anybody. Unforunately, everybody has that right.
Of course people can disagree with me. It is a fact, however, that implementing this request equals end of the BG2:EE broken for me. All because people being too lazy to install the mod**. That's nice from them, don't you think?
*As a example, you used my reqest (improving Slayer form). But since improving Slayer is also part of Ascension, you made me thought two thinks: that you are accusing my of being hypocrite and that content of my former request DOES in fact, matter.
**Of course, work for combatibility is necessary. But, since BG2:EE will be using BG:EE engine, shouldn't be possible to make Ascension avaliable at BG2:EE release date? Using BG2:EE beta as testing for Ascension as well? I refuse to believe nobody thought of it yet.
Okay. Let's try this another way. Referring only to the core Ascension mod, please state whether you object to or approve of the following components appearing in BG2EE - and, if possible, please be civil if you choose to explain your position.
1. Giving Sarevok back his Sword of Chaos (which you picked up at the start of BG2) allows him to power it up from +2 to +4, with the addition of 10% Magic Resistance and Life Drain per hit (1-5 HP).
2. The PC's Slayer form will receive substantial upgrades at 2 million, 4 million and 6 million XP. The first reduces THAC0 and AC, increases saving throws and damage, and gives 40% magic resistance (in addition to boosting STR and DEX to 25 and CON to 18). The second further reduces THAC0 (but not AC), grants 50% resistance to all elements and to magic, plus 15% resistance to Crushing/Piercing/Missile damage. The third and final upgrade is a more powerful - and much more unstable - form called the Ravager (which resembles a Pit Fiend). It reduces Rep by 3 rather than 2 and exists as a separate option when the Slayer power is invoked (ie: you can become either the Slayer or the Ravager). The Ravager form increases STR from 25 to 28, grants 50% resistance to everything, and reduces AC to -10. (Note: This is all from my own comparisons, so it's possible I've missed something. The only downside to the Ravager form is that it's much more likely to go berserk and attack anything in sight, including your party members, whereas the Slayer is at least manageable for a certain amount of time. However, the Ravager will kill practically anything it gets its hands on.
3. The banters between Imoen and Sarevok will be sped up via specific event-based timers to ensure that the player gets to see their full interaction before reaching the Throne of Bhaal.
4. After each Pocket Plane Challenge, the PC will gain Bhaalspawn powers. Much like the "Dream" abilities in the first game, the powers you receive are based on your actions - specifically, whether your pre-trial talk with the Solar follows the good or evil dialogue branches. Good abilities: Mass Healing/Draw Upon Holy Might/Permanent Negative Plane Protection and 5% Magic Resistance/Resurrection. Evil abilities: Regeneration/Dark Taint/Hand of Murder/Permanent 25% Resistance to all Physical Damage.
5. When confronting Balthazar, Good PCs with high Charisma can convince him to stand down and join you against Amelyssan. He will then act as an "unofficial" sixth party member in the manner of a summoned monster.
6. When confronting Amelyssan, she will try to delay you by conjuring up Irenicus, who in turn summons Bodhi. Evil PCs can persuade Bodhi to side with them in exchange for a binding promise to resurrect her (though PCs with high INT can instead promise that she will be "fittingly rewarded"), in which case she becomes an "unofficial" sixth party member in the manner of a summoned monster.
7. Amelyssan will also trigger Imoen's Slayer transformation if she's in your party. She will eventually regain her human form if you manage to avoid killing her during the battle.
8. After killing Irenicus comes the energy pools. Disrupting them will now give your PC further abilities such as Control Demons, Dimension Door and Focus.
9. Rather than fight Slayer Shades and Elemental Princes, the monsters guarding the pools will be fiends of the highest order: cambions, nabassus, mariliths and more. Each pool will also refresh your party and restore all your spells.
10. Facing Amelyssan again, she will summon the Five: Yaga-Shura, Illasera, Abazigal (in human form), Sendai and Balthazar. If Balthazar is on your side, Gromnir will take his place.
11. Before the battle begins, Amelyssan will attempt to turn Sarevok against you if he's in your party. Success/fail conditions are as follows:
a. If you forced Sarevok to take a geas to serve you, Amelyssan will break it and he will immediately betray you.
b. If you and Sarevok are of opposite alignments, he will betray you. Apparently (this is not confirmed) he will always betray LN/TN/CN characters.
c. If you are of Good alignment and converted Sarevok to Chaotic Good through dialogue, he will not betray you.
d. If you are of Evil alignment with under 10 Rep, and Sarevok is still Chaotic Evil, he will not betray you.
e. If you're playing on Easy, he will not betray you regardless of any other circumstances. (This is not confirmed.)
12. Killing two members of the Five will cause Amelyssan to join the final battle herself.
13. If you recruited Bodhi, she will demand payment after Amelyssan is dead. If you vowed to restore her to life, the Solar will force you to keep your word, but if you only promised to give her what she deserved, you can banish her back to the Abyss.
14. If you recruited either Bodhi or Balthazar, they will have their own epilogue.
15. Sarevok will have different epilogues depending on whether or not you converted him.
The only thing that really bothers me is that Sarevok always betrays Neutral-aligned Characters. I think if Ascension is integrated the Sarevok-betrayal mechanic might need a few tweaks (I also believe the Hell trials in BG2 should be tweaked, though, to allow for more Neutral playstyles).
Other than that, I personally found point 6 a bit silly, though I love the Irenicus-Sarevok trash-talk and think the fight is fun, I thought bringing Irenicus and Bodhi back was a bit 'out there', whereas the Five worked from a thematic perspective (basically, I see Irenicus and Bodhi's story to be essentially over and largely unconnected to the overarching Bhaalspawn saga).
I've always had a, possibly irrational, dislike for mods. I very much like to think I play games the way that the designers intended. Ascension is the sole exception I've made to this rule, on account of it having been made by Gaider himself. I'm so glad I did, because it's absolutely awesome! It really is how the original saga should've ended. I'd love to see it added as standard. I imagine the fights might be too difficult for many, I struggled with Amelyssan the Blackhearted for weeks. Nerfing it is a concession that might have to be made, but for the love of gaming: AT THE VERY LEAST MAKE SURE MOD AND GAME ARE COMPATIBLE!
@Sage: That's actually a very good point - if it turns out that "Ascension" can't be incorporated because of the usual limitations, at the very least I'd ask the devs to ensure that the mod is somehow compatible with BG2:EE. I'm just flat-out not buying it otherwise, it'd be like playing ME3 without the Extended Cut.
Honestly? I'd rather they not include ToB in BG2:EE at all, and instead focus on developing a full BG3 to serve as an alternate conclusion to the Bhaalspawn saga.
I'm actually for this on one level. The improved battles is a bit much though. Abizigal comes to mind. They'd have to edit/ tune this down a lot. A few of these battles were just plain frustrating.
What I'm mostly for is the updates to storyline and much better interaction with Balthazar and Sarevok. Plus more Bhaalspawn abilities alongside improved epilogues. I've yet to see any reason why you wouldn't want the official BG2EE edition to be improved in this way.
I'm actually for this on one level. The improved battles is a bit much though. Abizigal comes to mind. They'd have to edit/ tune this down a lot. A few of these battles were just plain frustrating.
What I'm mostly for is the updates to storyline and much better interaction with Balthazar and Sarevok. Plus more Bhaalspawn abilities alongside improved epilogues. I've yet to see any reason why you wouldn't want the official BG2EE edition to be improved in this way.
The Improved Battles have always been a separate component of the mod, though - the core of "Ascension" only pertains to the storyline/banter/abilities changes.
Having had my first BG experience with "Ascension" already installed, I'm constantly amazed by how much the original ToB falls short in comparison: Viconia only has a True Neutral ending even if you didn't convert her, Imoen and Sarevok have entire exchanges I didn't get to see, and the Slayer form never improves despite your massive level gains. I just can't conceive of playing BG2:EE without it.
I'd say yes, with a caveat. It should be included but either as an item you select in the start menu screen or with tweaks to allow you to adjust the difficulty level to suit the player ability.
I'd say yes, with a caveat. It should be included but either as an item you select in the start menu screen or with tweaks to allow you to adjust the difficulty level to suit the player ability.
From what I understand, Ascension already includes difficulty checks, particularly in that final battle.
Still, the final fights will reamin over the top, and still you will have to face The Five and Mellysan at the same time. Playing on core difficulty is still going to be pain in the arse. And that's not the reason I play Baldur's Gate at all.
If I were to want anything from Ascension it would probably be the Sarevok and Sword of Chaos interactions. I think it also restores some bugged interactions also if I recall correctly.
However I'd rather not see any of the endgame stuff appear. I may have liked aspects like not killing Balthazar, but I'm not prepared to pretend Ascension's version of the endgame story is canon. People may be disappointed with ToB's story when it came out, but I don't think Ascension is a god send either.
david gaider is still in bioware, right? would he even have the time or will to do this? would somebody else port it if not and would david care that somebody else ports his work? btw, I wish I could see deleted content. so many missing comments since the last time I viewed this thread
Comments
First, you just don't get why I made my request in the first place. Whatever, you don't need to. All you need to know is that I no longer consider this request possible, basing on critical estimation of such factors as the contract.
I have already stated the reasons why I'm against it. Hell, I have done it probably weeks/months ago since I clearly recall speaking my mind in this topic in the past. But I'll state it again, especially for you. Ascension, aside from plot, provides very challenging content practically impossible to beat for many players. In fact, it's content practically forces powerbuilding the party, so it destroys one thing that Baldur's Gate is loved for: freedom to play the way you like. Sure, you can nerf the battles especially for BG2:EE but that won't be "that" Ascension anymore. And finally, requiring people to install a mod is clearly too much. Also, final
Ascension fight is way too over the top for me. Killing my enemies once or two is ENOUGH. I don't want the thrid time, since right then I can't take my former enemies seriously anymore... Those are reasons I don't want it implemented.
The only good reason for implementing Ascension is that there is no guarantee for multi-platform mod for BG2:EE. That's it.
Sorry fot dissapoint you, but I'm not like the majority - I'm not going to be overly polite in situations where I see stating my opinion bluntly fit. I'm not afraid of speaking my mind.
I never called you "b****t" (if anything, I called your argumentation). That was merely my response to statement that I don't have right to judge anybody. Unforunately, everybody has that right.
Of course people can disagree with me. It is a fact, however, that implementing this request equals end of the BG2:EE broken for me. All because people being too lazy to install the mod**. That's nice from them, don't you think?
*As a example, you used my reqest (improving Slayer form). But since improving Slayer is also part of Ascension, you made me thought two thinks: that you are accusing my of being hypocrite and that content of my former request DOES in fact, matter.
**Of course, work for combatibility is necessary. But, since BG2:EE will be using BG:EE engine, shouldn't be possible to make Ascension avaliable at BG2:EE release date? Using BG2:EE beta as testing for Ascension as well? I refuse to believe nobody thought of it yet.
1. Giving Sarevok back his Sword of Chaos (which you picked up at the start of BG2) allows him to power it up from +2 to +4, with the addition of 10% Magic Resistance and Life Drain per hit (1-5 HP).
2. The PC's Slayer form will receive substantial upgrades at 2 million, 4 million and 6 million XP. The first reduces THAC0 and AC, increases saving throws and damage, and gives 40% magic resistance (in addition to boosting STR and DEX to 25 and CON to 18). The second further reduces THAC0 (but not AC), grants 50% resistance to all elements and to magic, plus 15% resistance to Crushing/Piercing/Missile damage. The third and final upgrade is a more powerful - and much more unstable - form called the Ravager (which resembles a Pit Fiend). It reduces Rep by 3 rather than 2 and exists as a separate option when the Slayer power is invoked (ie: you can become either the Slayer or the Ravager). The Ravager form increases STR from 25 to 28, grants 50% resistance to everything, and reduces AC to -10. (Note: This is all from my own comparisons, so it's possible I've missed something. The only downside to the Ravager form is that it's much more likely to go berserk and attack anything in sight, including your party members, whereas the Slayer is at least manageable for a certain amount of time. However, the Ravager will kill practically anything it gets its hands on.
3. The banters between Imoen and Sarevok will be sped up via specific event-based timers to ensure that the player gets to see their full interaction before reaching the Throne of Bhaal.
4. After each Pocket Plane Challenge, the PC will gain Bhaalspawn powers. Much like the "Dream" abilities in the first game, the powers you receive are based on your actions - specifically, whether your pre-trial talk with the Solar follows the good or evil dialogue branches. Good abilities: Mass Healing/Draw Upon Holy Might/Permanent Negative Plane Protection and 5% Magic Resistance/Resurrection. Evil abilities: Regeneration/Dark Taint/Hand of Murder/Permanent 25% Resistance to all Physical Damage.
5. When confronting Balthazar, Good PCs with high Charisma can convince him to stand down and join you against Amelyssan. He will then act as an "unofficial" sixth party member in the manner of a summoned monster.
6. When confronting Amelyssan, she will try to delay you by conjuring up Irenicus, who in turn summons Bodhi. Evil PCs can persuade Bodhi to side with them in exchange for a binding promise to resurrect her (though PCs with high INT can instead promise that she will be "fittingly rewarded"), in which case she becomes an "unofficial" sixth party member in the manner of a summoned monster.
7. Amelyssan will also trigger Imoen's Slayer transformation if she's in your party. She will eventually regain her human form if you manage to avoid killing her during the battle.
8. After killing Irenicus comes the energy pools. Disrupting them will now give your PC further abilities such as Control Demons, Dimension Door and Focus.
9. Rather than fight Slayer Shades and Elemental Princes, the monsters guarding the pools will be fiends of the highest order: cambions, nabassus, mariliths and more. Each pool will also refresh your party and restore all your spells.
10. Facing Amelyssan again, she will summon the Five: Yaga-Shura, Illasera, Abazigal (in human form), Sendai and Balthazar. If Balthazar is on your side, Gromnir will take his place.
11. Before the battle begins, Amelyssan will attempt to turn Sarevok against you if he's in your party. Success/fail conditions are as follows:
a. If you forced Sarevok to take a geas to serve you, Amelyssan will break it and he will immediately betray you.
b. If you and Sarevok are of opposite alignments, he will betray you. Apparently (this is not confirmed) he will always betray LN/TN/CN characters.
c. If you are of Good alignment and converted Sarevok to Chaotic Good through dialogue, he will not betray you.
d. If you are of Evil alignment with under 10 Rep, and Sarevok is still Chaotic Evil, he will not betray you.
e. If you're playing on Easy, he will not betray you regardless of any other circumstances. (This is not confirmed.)
12. Killing two members of the Five will cause Amelyssan to join the final battle herself.
13. If you recruited Bodhi, she will demand payment after Amelyssan is dead. If you vowed to restore her to life, the Solar will force you to keep your word, but if you only promised to give her what she deserved, you can banish her back to the Abyss.
14. If you recruited either Bodhi or Balthazar, they will have their own epilogue.
15. Sarevok will have different epilogues depending on whether or not you converted him.
Now... discuss.
The only thing that really bothers me is that Sarevok always betrays Neutral-aligned Characters. I think if Ascension is integrated the Sarevok-betrayal mechanic might need a few tweaks (I also believe the Hell trials in BG2 should be tweaked, though, to allow for more Neutral playstyles).
Other than that, I personally found point 6 a bit silly, though I love the Irenicus-Sarevok trash-talk and think the fight is fun, I thought bringing Irenicus and Bodhi back was a bit 'out there', whereas the Five worked from a thematic perspective (basically, I see Irenicus and Bodhi's story to be essentially over and largely unconnected to the overarching Bhaalspawn saga).
Won't happen, of course. But I can dream.
What I'm mostly for is the updates to storyline and much better interaction with Balthazar and Sarevok. Plus more Bhaalspawn abilities alongside improved epilogues. I've yet to see any reason why you wouldn't want the official BG2EE edition to be improved in this way.
Having had my first BG experience with "Ascension" already installed, I'm constantly amazed by how much the original ToB falls short in comparison: Viconia only has a True Neutral ending even if you didn't convert her, Imoen and Sarevok have entire exchanges I didn't get to see, and the Slayer form never improves despite your massive level gains. I just can't conceive of playing BG2:EE without it.
The original last battle also felt a bit too random, and often made little sense.
However I'd rather not see any of the endgame stuff appear. I may have liked aspects like not killing Balthazar, but I'm not prepared to pretend Ascension's version of the endgame story is canon. People may be disappointed with ToB's story when it came out, but I don't think Ascension is a god send either.
And by that I mean the possibility of choosing which component to install.
What if I want to play without in my first playthrough, with some components in my second, and with some other components in my third playthrough?
Maybe not, but it's still better for taking the fun of playing the game from me. I want to roleplay in BG, not to powerbuild.