How to make a viable Wizard Slayer
Severon
Member Posts: 214
Greetings.
I have a character that I really want to try out, possibly in multiplayer. A quick brief background on the character below:
Aliora is the daughter to a powerful wizard of Thay. Whilst growing up, her father realised her mother had Wild Mage tendencies which she had kept secret until discovered. He then captured and tortured her to death in order to extract whatever it is red wizards want from wild mages. Aliora finding out the truth of her mothers death, fled Thay and began her training as a wizard slayer hoping to return to Thay to get revenge.
At some point in her story, I want her to dual to a mage either she comes to terms with her mothers death, accepting her magical inheritance and / or after killing her father with an arrow shot through the eye. (This would be done off-screen either before BG or BG2 for example.)
So from a gameplay point of view, I've never played Wizard Slayers. They've always felt far too restrictive than what you gain. Even at the end of trilogy, the benefits imo don't outweigh the restrictions.
- If you had to dual a Wizard Slayer to a Mage, at what point would you think it beneficial to do so?
- Do you think it unreasonable to EEKeeper some sort of innate ability or something a little extra for the character to make up the shortfall and still be considered ok for use in multiplayer?
For example: Would it be too OP to EEKeeper +2 bonus to all saves and maybe provide an initial Magic Resistance by 25%.
I have a character that I really want to try out, possibly in multiplayer. A quick brief background on the character below:
Aliora is the daughter to a powerful wizard of Thay. Whilst growing up, her father realised her mother had Wild Mage tendencies which she had kept secret until discovered. He then captured and tortured her to death in order to extract whatever it is red wizards want from wild mages. Aliora finding out the truth of her mothers death, fled Thay and began her training as a wizard slayer hoping to return to Thay to get revenge.
At some point in her story, I want her to dual to a mage either she comes to terms with her mothers death, accepting her magical inheritance and / or after killing her father with an arrow shot through the eye. (This would be done off-screen either before BG or BG2 for example.)
So from a gameplay point of view, I've never played Wizard Slayers. They've always felt far too restrictive than what you gain. Even at the end of trilogy, the benefits imo don't outweigh the restrictions.
- If you had to dual a Wizard Slayer to a Mage, at what point would you think it beneficial to do so?
- Do you think it unreasonable to EEKeeper some sort of innate ability or something a little extra for the character to make up the shortfall and still be considered ok for use in multiplayer?
For example: Would it be too OP to EEKeeper +2 bonus to all saves and maybe provide an initial Magic Resistance by 25%.
Post edited by Severon on
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Comments
You could also argue it fits thematically, because it's after a profound experience with magic (Irenicus). Personally I'm always in favor of creative use of EEKeeper. I see nothing wrong with using it to reinforce RP, and there are many ways to do so. Ultimately, it's up to you and the people you play with.
Rightly or wrongly I believe that the best mage killer is another mage, but with an edge. So I initially thought "Yes, that could work" but then, on reflection, decided that the benefits you would get from dualing from WS wouldn't outweigh those you get from dualing from Assassin (which is my favourite mage killer style and would sort of fit with your backstory). But that's just my opinion and very much tailored to fit the way I play the game.
It just doesn't seem worth it to me.
You do get some nice perks for being Assassin, of course. Weigh the pros and cons, and decide for your own specific setup.
Yes even a Wizard Slayer/Mage would still have the restrictions. Wouldn't even be able to use wands.
However I would never dual a wizard slayer as they peak late when they gain high MR and fighter hla's. Nothing about them duals well when compared to any other type of warrior and they're a pretty bad class in the early game, plus the inability to use magical items all game would suck as a mage.
Berserker might fit your story nicely and would dual so much better.
Wizardslayer/mage is a horrible, horrible dual. Don't even think about it unless you really want a difficult challenge since you cannot use any extra spell-slot items or protection items to make up for lack of armor. Wizardslayer/thief isn't that bad.
I would argue that not having access to magic items is in fact being MITIGATED by being a mage. You can emulate most effects via spells, and the best defenses in BG2 are almsot all based on spells and not equipment. I do agree that it's somewhat annoying in BG1, where you rely on stuff like wands etc. more. Agreed. Ranged seems to be the way to go, as ranged is already really good at interrupting due to not having to move, and having access to a lot of annoying munitions. Ranged THAC0s also tend to be better than melee ones. This I *strongly* disagree with. WS->Mage is at least the second-best WS dual (after or on par with WS->Druid). The main reason for that is Melf's Minute Meteors, which work INCREDIBLY well for a Wizard Slayer, with their 5 APR high-THAC0/high enchantment level attack and elemental damage (same goes for Fire Seeds as Druid dual, but better). Also, you can easily compensate for the lack of protective items by using protective spells, which in BG2 at least are much better than items at protecting you anyway. Sitting behind layer upon layer of Stoneskin and Mirror Image (not to mention things like PfMW etc.) and shielded from almost any form of magic conceivable... hardly a better spot to set out from on your mage-slaying quest.
WS->Thief is attractive because of the obvious use of UAI, but I personally find that much overrated. Items tend to do less than spells in BG2, and the main reason you want UAI is usually for weapons anyway - SNT and Carsomyr in particular (SotM can already be used by WS->Mage). Granted those are strong, but ranged is likely better, making this a moot point.
I probably should've elaborated on wizardslayer/thief. In my opinion, UAI is just the cherry on top. Thief levels allow the wizardslayer to perform hit-and-fade with backstab for bonus damage + to-hit bonus from stealth, and because the wizardslayer is best as a ranged fighter they'll naturally aim for a high DEX which goes well with being a thief. Traps are also extremely helpful.
I think UAI's greatest strength is not in allowing more weapons but in allowing the wizardslayer/thief to use scrolls. Then you have the spells you need while having all the tools that being a thief provides.
A wizard-slayer > mage is really an unusual dual as it brings some difficulties when you get back your ws class - no ability to use potions, rings, amulets, wands, boots etc - all those fun things that add to being a mage. Although in BG2 you can still use some of those amazing staffs - considered weapons - so make sure you have a few points in staff as a ws.
Being a mage will allow you mostly to overcome not being able to use items.
If you decide to dual at 7 or 9 - it really depends on what you are looking for in a ws - how much is his magic resistance and how many attacks (melee) will be given if you go to level 9.
If you dual at 9 - then you will be mage for at least the first 1/3 of BG2 - which is fine if you have a team to support you.
I would consider instead of bows try using darts (very fasts and great APR) - although you will miss out on some of the amazing bows - your NPCs can use them instead and darts can be fun and have a good variety as well - a few points in them as well.
The thing with a wizard slayer > mage is how you plan to play him - if you are thinking another melee fighter with some added mage abilities - that would probably not be the best choice - make him more a 3rd melee fighter instead and use the ws>m as a mage with some unique abilities to disrupt casters by firing a ton of darts. There is no need for a ws>mage to actually engage in regular melee.
Using Keeper to add things or increase things is a personal choice - but remember to keep it balanced as well -- Viconia has a 65%MR because she is a drow and you can achieve high MR through items to some degree - as long as it is not game breaking then it should not be a problem - you after all have divine blood and it should act differently for different characters and not just the bhaalspawn powers you get for a different alignment.
As for the thief dual -- wz>thief - is a mighty combo like kensai>thief or anything >thief when they reach epic levels - personally I find UAI a bit too cheesey for my taste.
Being a Mage is so powerful, you don't need any additional spell slots or anything else, especially as a WS: one RRR here, one Breach there, throw two darts and that's it, you have incapacitated the enemy caster.
Any physical fight can be solved with a combination of buffs (Prot from evil + Blur + Mirror Image + Stoneskin + Spirit Armor + Improved Invisibility + PfMW + Improved Haste etc) from the Mage.
Yes Aliora will be using the Longbow and will likely grand master it. I haven't meta gamed her stats as I want to try and create an actual character like an NPC which I want to use to join someone's multiplayer game as if they picked up Aliora as an NPC.
Thus she only has 15 strength and low constitution, but has high enough dex and int that she can dual to either thief or mage.
Also I figure if she's shooting Arrows of Dispelling, it really makes mince meat of mages
I'm aware of the pros and cons of warriors and dual classing, but the main thing wiz slayer has going for him is his MR and gimping that doesn't seem like playing the class to its strengths.
Sure mages can mitigate not using magical items a bit, but its still a disadvantage compared to a dual with any other warrior.
Until at the point of using a speed weapon in off hand for 5 natural attacks and then casting improved haste, a wiz slayer dual is not actually going to be able to apply their miscast as effectively as the straight wiz slayer, not to mention the fact that they'll have to buff thoroughly and use a restrictive choice of weapons and style to do it (all the straight wiz slayer needs is one cast of gww per caster).
What not using magical items tends to weaken is defence (ac, saving throws and immunities) more than attack, which is perhaps why I'm so into the idea of full MR for the wiz slayer... After all, 100% MR is less labour intensive than spell trap, spell immunity combos etc.
Compared to any other fighter dual I still really struggle with the notion of a wiz slayer one.
You really only need 7 levels as a Wizard Slayer (for the extra 0.5 APR) to shut down all enemy mages in the game, in one round. And a Wizard Slayer gets very, very little MR, at 1% per level for most of the game. The spell failure effect doesn't scale, so most of the benefit of the WS kit comes at level 1, not level 20.
Not to mention the whole Druid thing, which due to how strange Druid levels work out means an incredibly quick setup (even more quickly if you dual at 7 but imo going to 9 is well worth the very small cost).
I would have to agree that WS dualled to mage would provide better all-round protection and be significantly more capable than a straight WS for most of the game. I'm not convinced though that it would be easier to win a solo no-reload game for a dualled build - a level 7 or even 9 fighter won't find it easy to hit some of the later game opponents and would need to rely more on spells (which is a finite resource). A straight WS with 100+% MR though is a fearsome opponent in ToB.
Reminds me: does anyone know if WS Miscast is supposed to only affect arcane casters, and not divine ones? My game is modded and I can't check myself if that is the vanilla behavior, I could've sworn it locked clerics, too...
I think solo I'd always go WS->Mage (if I had to go WS in the first place), but in party I'd likely go WS->Druid. Pure WS just does too little.
Note that these distinctions won't matter much in an unmodded game. Vanilla has been beaten by any class imaginable, including naked characters and unleveled ones.
I think that's overstating the case. I agree that a WS would have a very good chance against a bog-standard mage in any given encounter, but there are a lot of such encounters and you only need to fail a saving throw once to end a no-reload (of course as referred to above many casters are not affected by spell failure at all and therefore a solo WS needs more of a strategy than this anyway).
It's not the spells themselves that bypass spell failure, but the method of delivery - scripted spells are not affected. SCS uses those a lot, though I agree that the vast majority relate to buffing (depending on your installation options). However, there are a few scripted spells/abilities that could directly affect an attacking character.