Wizard Slayer underrated?
vladpen
Member Posts: 88
Wizard Slayers are commonly regarded as a bad class. This seems to arise from the misconception that they cause 10% spell failure chance per melee hit, whereas they actually cause 25% spell failure chance per hit, melee or ranged. A level 1 Wizard Slayer with two pips in darts gets 3.5 high-speed attacks per round, and then 4 APR with the third pip. This seems like it would trivialize fights against mages. Two rounds of fighting, and that poor mage you interrupted with your darts can't cast any more spells. That would make the Wizard Slayer one of the best classes, certainly far from one of the worst. Am I missing something?
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A very specialized focus and an all the time drawback. Consider the Inquisitor kit if you really want to slay wizards. Dispel Magic once per day for every four levels as a special ability at twice the inquisitor's level and True Sight once per day for every four levels as a special ability, Immune to Hold and Charm as well and a few priest spells later on and minimal drawbacks.
Going back to wizard slayer, by the time you actually get through a wizard's defenses and are physically hitting the wizard, they are likely to die in a couple hits anyway. The cumulative spell failure has a real small window of being an effective tool.
By the time you get your 4 APR in on a wizard (past those types of protections) the wizard is going to die fast regardless of if you are attacking as a Wizard Slayer, Berserker, or any class or kit. Do you want to be a little bit gimped against things besides wizards the rest of the time for this minimal advantage (that is less than the advantage of a Inquisitor when fighting wizards).
The problem with fighting wizards is mostly getting through their defenses before they kill you, not killing them after you are landing hits on them which is the only way the wizard slayer skill is useful.
They give away a chance to use potion, rings, amulets - it's a severe penalty.
But their Miscast Magic on hit applies even if their weapons do no damage - it goes through Mirror Images and Stoneskins.
It doesn't go through PfMW if you use a magical weapon.
We have forumites who like wizard slayers, like @semiticgod , @Blackraven and some others. Maybe they can share additional advice not covered here - https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/22918/why-dont-you-play-as-the-wizard-slayer-kit-in-bg2
Liches are also immune to Breach, because they are jerks. They're also probably the best argument in favor of the wizard slayer, in my opinion.
EDIT: I wanted to add that while Stoneskin and Mirror Image don't stop the wizard slayer's miscast, several other defensive spells that become common in BG2 (Mantle, Improved Mantle, Protection from Magic Weapons, and Absolute Immunity) can block the wizard slayer depending on what weapon the wizard slayer is wielding. So neither method is entirely infallible.
You are correct, however, in seeing that the problem is more complex than it's often portrayed.
A Paladin or Berserker can be a much more versatile and stronger fighter.
WS spell failure is 25%, stackable, and applies to all weapons in EE. This include area-effect weapons like Fire Seeds, and area-effect weapons bypass all weapon immunities on any nearby targets. In my last no-reload run of BG2, my Wizard Slayer and her Vhailor's Helm clone took down an SCS lich with zero risk by hurling Fire Seeds at our Flesh Golem (an easy hit, with the golem's 10 AC) while the golem stood next to the lich.
A Wizard Slayer can take down an SCS lich (with all its many layers of pre-buffs) at level 7, on a Chapter 1 budget, without using any finite resources. No other class can do that.
But I think Wizard Slayers are OP as fu**
Did they fix the ws problem with ranged weapons - meaning does miscast magic work now with ranged weapons as it should? If so then the ws is a bit more useful then it was previously.
On the other hand if you can hit a mage then its basically dead anyways. tactics 101 says see an enemy caster attack him first ignore everything else until he is toast. So if you can hit it then does a ws really matter? Maybe in extended battles or if the ranged miscast magic works then if the ws has 4 attacks with a bow/darts then total disruption in the first round then it would be nice even if half of it hit -- it would be good.
The inability to use magic items is not great because there is so many items that give saving throws bonuses and before you mention the ws magic resistance which is slow in getting (1% each level is almost totally useless then you have to wait until level 20 to get another 5% and then only every other level starting at 20 - what a horribly long wait) and is capped at some number unlike say the monk who can gain 80% MR a whole lot faster + add equipment this can be improved.
Plus if the ws stats are not great -e.g. lets say 18/01 (or less even) STR then there is no way to boast it - since potions and bracers or belts are not allowed. So you are royally screwed if your stats suck.
If the ws had something like dispel or his version of it naming it something like "shatter magic" that was party friendly (like an individual dispel magic) then bringing along a ws would be very useful but sadly nothing like this exists for it. Imagine an anti-magic ability that nullifies on contact but can only be used once/day /5 levels and only on 1 person.
While not useless even if parts of the kit is fixed - an Inquisitors dispel is more powerful and makes for a great anti-mage debuffer; need a anti-mage killer bring along a monk (with its stun and greater MR) or even an archer, with the right arrows an archer will slay any mage around.
If you use the ws you might want to download the mod that rebalances it.
One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned in this thread is that mages can still make use of magic items (wands etc) and use special abilities (sequencers etc) even after being 'shut down' by miscast magic. That doesn't make that much difference in vanilla as that type of use is rare, but if you're playing with SCS then virtually every arcane caster will still be able to spring nasty surprises on you after taking hits from your wizard slayer.
If you want a real challenge then try playing the WS solo. If you can get them to level 40 you'll have an extremely powerful character (by that stage 100%+ MR is more useful than their miscast magic ability). However, surviving to that point is not easy
I’ve been playing a solo, dart-throwing Wizard Slayer and it’s awesome. It’s not just Mages it cancels out. Clerics, Druids, Ogre Mages... anything that casts magic. I went for an elf with the sleep/charm immunity, but a short race with the saving throw bonus would be good too.
Can anybody weigh in on if this is true? Last time I checked the Wizard Slayer's magic disruption ability didn't work against divine magic. Would be a pretty nifty power boost if that had changed.
I also remember the old game (SSI made?) within which we played a mage hunted by those wizard slayers. The story potential is phenomenal, especially, if sneaking and skulking ain't your kinda fun (not all enjoy playing a thief or assassin).
So, IF I had loads of money, THEN i would contact @Gusinda & ask him to dish me the files allowing to remix the Wizard Slayer subclass (oldschool KIT). Why Gus? I worked with him before, on BG mods and combining several mods, and he was always dedicated, open-minded, and also eager to playtest!
What I always disliked about the Wizard Slayer is the limitations on armor & weapons, because they ARE still trained fighters. Like with the Kensai subclass, it did not seem perfectly playtested.
Last: I remember failing on allowing (rewriting) specialist classes to be combined. SO fighter-thief would work, but wizard slayer-assassin would crash due to tables not able to handle both.
Beamdog did listen a lot more to the players, and their concerns. So, hopes high, the modders here DID achieve a lot of good stuff & many did not even pester anyone of us for monetary recompense. THANK YOU ALL.