Haha great poll choices OP. I must admit, I got a thrill from playing through with the flirt pack. Some of those quests were very disturbing (like trying to take advantage of vulnerable young women), but it sure added to the immersion.
I love romances since it adds a layer of depth, however I like it to be optional rather than forced. I like how Dragon Age and Mass Effect (with the exception of Liara the blue stalker) handle it. It's there for those who.like it
Forgive me if I ramble somewhat, for it is a rather complex subject.
For me, the possibility of relationships in a story is an important one, not for some poorly written fade to black "romance" where the protagonist spends an eternity agreeing with the other, nor for some twisted scenario where the protagonist plays psychotherapist for the love interest - there's a reason why Doctor/Patient relationships are frowned on, and that sort of unhealthy interaction is simply asking for trouble. I am also far too old and cantankerous to care much for sowing one's wild oats types of affair, where the game is littered with conquests more than companions.
I also don't play for the short whoopy cutscene, a la Dragon Age, though I will admit they're rather amusing, especially the filthy brown undies and the fact that Morrigan was apparently sporting a bra bigger than her entire top under there.
One example I actually liked was, amazing enough, Final Fantasy X. Not the forced, achingly tedious "main" romance, but the far more subtle one where if Tidus fights together with one of the girl characters they have particular cutscenes with them, and that girl throws Tidus his ball during a limit break.
Small, short scenes with no game benefit, that went nowhere thanks to the fact they apparently blew their entire budget on the one FMV, but it felt more real and more interesting than the main plot, the little ways that the characters showed their affections and loyalties (the fact my wife is a dead ringer for Rikku did admittedly help).
A romance can be endlessly different in a story, one sided, reciprocated, secret, blatant, or be the shallow Twilight-style obsessive "love" from the beginning of a relationship rather than the deep abiding love and interdependency two people feel towards one another in a committed, happy relationship. A well-written romance might be as subtle in prose as someone smiling at another person, or quietly supporting them without the story ever being so crass as to reveal it to the reader. They might never so much as kiss, unless they did so behind the scenes, yet the bond between them is as plain as day.
It doesn't even have to feature the protagonist. I rather liked the romance that Jaheria and Khallid had; they were loyal to one another, happy, and the loss that Jaheira felt when Khallid died so brutally and cruelly was by far her most interesting moment as a character, and one that was cheapened when she basically shrugged and moved on within scant weeks.
So yeah, I'd like many more romances in the game, because that's one way to explore the characters. It doesn't have to be blatant, it definitely shouldn't revolve around rewriting your personality to coincide with the character you're romancing or even be something that requires a strict "path" to progress. A romance is all about trust and understanding, about growing to appreciate the differences between you as well as the similarities, and about moving past any disagreements, sometimes without even screaming at one another.
It might manifest itself subtly, with the character quietly supporting your leadership, choosing to spend time with you rather than go on a trip with the others, giving up something for you without you even realising it until later, or even be something with only the barest hint they feel anything for you before they step between you and a mortal blow without even a second thought.
It might revolve around bickering, talks that crop up that the player really has no way of "winning", because the other person isn't really arguing, they just wanted to spend time talking to you. Arguments where there isn't really a right or wrong option, they're just interested in seeing what you think about something.
I've rarely encountered anything written to the quality I would want, but I honestly would love to see the natural, organic growth of a relationship where you could go through it time and time again, and even if you went the same way twice, you could still realise new things, see undercurrents that hadn't occurred to you before, to feel by proxy with your character the same connection they grow to feel with their romantic partner. At best, I've encountered a few I thought were rather sweet, but far more often the ones that were "designed" were the ones that fell flat (who thought in NWN 2 that Neeshka developed a far more intriguing relationship with a male NPC than Elanee did?).
Beyond simple romances however, would be relationships.
Some of my favourite parts of Baldur's Gate 2 were the friendships you and your party could build, increasing your understanding and attachment to the character, the Karma that bound you together with your comrades and for the most part left you feeling like a team at the end, rather than just some loosely woven cluster of individuals riding on your divine coattails. Mazzy sticking up for you, Jan confiding in you about his family issues, Minsc finding true purpose again through his friendship with Aerie, and Aerie finally growing a set and telling a certain dwarf where to shove it.
For every NPC I would enjoy a relationship that evolved; not even necessarily in a positive way. Perhaps you may have so many philosophical differences with an NPC over a period of time that they decide to leave you. Perhaps your friendship with them leads them to better understand themselves, overcome some issue (without you necessarily playing psychoanalyst, a solid support structure and someone having your back is often all one needs), and evolve, based on how you and your partymates interacted with them and with each other. One shouldn't need a romance to know someone, and if someone is pursued in a non-romantic manner then there should be a difference with one that is pursued as a potential love interest (though like in real life, these approaches would not coincide perfectly with the emotional results).
While I can barely stomach Jaheria, I went through that romance the first time and thought it added a lot of depth to the game. It was nice having a plot line that required decisions to be made about how close party members were going to get. I like the "mini-romances" in the form of personal crises that came up for most of the NPC's as well. That feature is one of the key features of BG2 that made it resonate so well as a sequel (and stand the test of time.)
Another point is when I'm playing (or had the time to play) pencil and paper RPG, the main component of play was the conversations, problem solving and relationship building. Role playing is supposed to allow you to take on a persona, not just stats. When you have a computer dishing out the plot lines and conversations, it is a lot harder to have meaningful depth (compared to a flesh and blood DM.) I think these "let's get to know each other" dialogs and subquests that we call "romances" help bridge the gap between killing monsters and weaving a meaningful story.
With that said, I do know the feeling that "I just want to kill things/get XP." When you desire that type of playing time after a long day of whatever reality demands of you, the last thing you want to do is argue with your "digital spouse." It gets even worse when your on your 20th hour of consecutive play and don't want to read any dialog much less nurture a fictional relationship. You just want to (have the computer) roll d20 over and over.
I really like the nuance in the BG world. I'm going through now in BGT and collecting all the books in BG1 and storing them in a chest in Beregost. Once I finish getting them all, I'm going to read them. I'll do the same once I cross over to BG2. The game can be so much more than THAC0 vs AC; it can be a work of literary art.
I'd probably leave the "romance" story lines alone (I think there are enough of them.) I wouldn't mind seeing a similar battle over who's my best friend or the best man at my wedding. It could be the bromance stories.:)
Forgive me if I ramble somewhat, for it is a rather complex subject.
(snip)
Agree entirely.
I would love to have more relationship building with the emphasis on comradeship and friendship rather than romance scenarios. As I may have mentioned previously I've no interest in romancing NPCs but would love the opportunity to be able to develop the relationship between party members in a more meaningful way. This would be more akin to a real P&P type party where sharing adversity and hardship welds the team into a tighter cohesive unit who develop bonds with each other rather than CHARNAME just getting his leg over.
This seems amusing in a stupid kind of way. Are there really people here who think a ruthless and brutal Blackguard would be happy to lay down his weapons and spoon in a bed by a fire instead of fight? May that horrifying and disgusting alternate dimension never cross paths with me.
Are there really people here who think a ruthless and brutal Blackguard would be happy to lay down his weapons and spoon in a bed by a fire instead of fight?
I'd be happy to let said Blackguard "lay down his weapons" inside me, and I'm not even gay.
This seems amusing in a stupid kind of way. Are there really people here who think a ruthless and brutal Blackguard would be happy to lay down his weapons and spoon in a bed by a fire instead of fight? May that horrifying and disgusting alternate dimension never cross paths with me.
I don't think you should view a romance with people like Dorn so much as "He lays my quivering body down by the fire while my lips whisper no, no but my eyes say oh sweet Sune, yes." as much as "We slaughtered a village of humanoids and in the heat of our bloodlust, we had rough sex right next to the burning orphanage, our screams of passion overcoming the screams of the dying".
This seems amusing in a stupid kind of way. Are there really people here who think a ruthless and brutal Blackguard would be happy to lay down his weapons and spoon in a bed by a fire instead of fight? May that horrifying and disgusting alternate dimension never cross paths with me.
Well, unless Blackguards never have children they would have to. In any case, the two don't really seem mutually exclusive. People have romantic relationships and also have jobs. For that matter, some of the most "ruthless and brutal" people in the world have had romantic relationships in real life.
I don't think you should view a romance with people like Dorn so much as "He lays my quivering body down by the fire while my lips whisper no, no but my eyes say oh sweet Sune, yes." as much as "We slaughtered a village of humanoids and in the heat of our bloodlust, we had rough sex right next to the burning orphanage, our screams of passion overcoming the screams of the dying".
HAH! The devs have, however, implied that his romance will be more along the lines of the latter, actually. So, you're right on.
Well, unless Blackguards never have children they would have to. In any case, the two don't really seem mutually exclusive. People have romantic relationships and also have jobs. For that matter, some of the most "ruthless and brutal" people in the world have had romantic relationships in real life.
Also, I completely agree with this. It's very realistic that such violent individuals would need a break from such things. I adore playing music, but I can't play guitar all the time, or my fingers will bleed. Kind of a stupid example, but really there is a lot more to someone like Dorn who has a passion for violence, than just violence. That said ... outside of actual romance, who doesn't enjoy sex? Pretty sure loads of greedy, violent gang leaders are getting plenty more than I ever will. Lol!
This seems amusing in a stupid kind of way. Are there really people here who think a ruthless and brutal Blackguard would be happy to lay down his weapons and spoon in a bed by a fire instead of fight? May that horrifying and disgusting alternate dimension never cross paths with me.
Well, unless Blackguards never have children they would have to. In any case, the two don't really seem mutually exclusive. People have romantic relationships and also have jobs. For that matter, some of the most "ruthless and brutal" people in the world have had romantic relationships in real life.
Really? A Blackguard becoming a willing Father? More like the Father to a dozen bastards. Also, Dorn has been described as an ESPECIALLY brutal Blackguard, pushing the very definition of evil. Not all Blackguards have to be that way, and it's entirely possible albeit disgusting and unlikely that they have soft, weak, timid hearts and somehow find the time to engage in sexual intercourse and flirtations in-between stabbing an innocent child with a serrated blade for the sole purpose of sating their sadism.
Anduine, you don´t need to be a good person to be a father. Genghis khan is there to prove it :P . (And a huge amount of tyrants and cruel persons around the world).
We just don´t know how this romance will work out.
Actually wasn't Khan an okay dad? His children were quite educated and fairly adept rulers. (Albeit sibling rivalry should have been avoided)
Additionally as a ruler Khan made things a great deal safer than they had been in China. (To be fair I think the governments he ended up controlling in China were pretty rotten at the core and so things like actual civil service had fell by the wayside.)
Disclaimer: This is all from a World History AP class 7-8 years ago. Details are sketchy at best, and I didn't fact check this stuff.
This thread is so old, I can't remember if I even answered it. I think I did, way back there, somewhere.
My opinion is that romances are nice and can be fun, but they can also be very distracting and poorly written. I prefer the friendship elements in the better ones, and really, most of them could do with just that. I'm currently running a "romance" with Jaheira that is still just a friendship, and I'm enjoying getting to know her and sharing the adventure with her.
In the end though, I'm mostly playing computer games for the strategy and combat. Well-written characters add spice to the soup and put icing on the cake, romanceable or not. Hmm, I think I'm getting hungry in anticipation of U.S. Thanksgiving. I'm full of food metaphors, today.
Anduine, you don´t need to be a good person to be a father. Genghis khan is there to prove it :P . (And a huge amount of tyrants and cruel persons around the world).
We just don´t know how this romance will work out.
You missed an extremely important adjective that I placed in my post. "Willing." Do you honestly think Dorn, going on the information that we currently have, would willingly have a child and raise him?
Anduine, you don´t need to be a good person to be a father. Genghis khan is there to prove it :P . (And a huge amount of tyrants and cruel persons around the world).
We just don´t know how this romance will work out.
You missed an extremely important adjective that I placed in my post. "Willing." Do you honestly think Dorn, going on the information that we currently have, would willingly have a child and raise him?
Yes.
Reading his Candlekeep entry, his brand of "fatherhood" may well be cruelly ignoring his offspring to encourage them to grow strong, but I can definitely see him willingly settling with someone who doesn't make him "weak", and enjoying the birth of a mini-Dorn for whom he will care for in his own way.
Evil doesn't preclude attachment, and I doubt very much that the brutal Blackguard is a practising Buddhist.
Anduine, you don´t need to be a good person to be a father. Genghis khan is there to prove it :P . (And a huge amount of tyrants and cruel persons around the world).
We just don´t know how this romance will work out.
You missed an extremely important adjective that I placed in my post. "Willing." Do you honestly think Dorn, going on the information that we currently have, would willingly have a child and raise him?
Every dictator needs a successor for his tyranny. More likely he'd be there to knock the kid in the dirt whenever he got the chance to show the kid what strength is, then would go out to kill some more villagers. The other member of the relationship would have to do most of the "raising"; if mental abuse and teaching a child to hate and murder strangers for your own gain is "raising". But yeah, I could see him having a kid. He'd just probably ditch it if it started to slow them down to much.
Now if you're asking if he'd care about the kid beyond what that kid could do for him, or wouldn't kill his own kid? Doubtful, but then he'd also probably be the only one he'd allow to kill the kid. There is evidence in the write up that Dorn cared for his mother, but he hated her weakness and thought they'd both be better without each other. Granted I could have misinterpreted his intent.
I was going to answer "more options", because imho more is better, but then I succumbed to my weakness for falling for the crazy option :P
I think blackguards are a pretty diverse lot. You do have the cookie cutter "VALENTINES AND DIAPERS ARE FOR SISSIES" bunch. But there are the guys that raise the next in line. There are probably some that *do* actually dote on their children generously or even selfishly. Some may be sociopaths and treat their offspring as little more than toys or trophies.
I doubt any would devote so much time to child-rearing and would leave that duty to servants or slaves.
I know it sounds far-fetched, but I look to dictators and even mafia dons and their families to see how things played out. The propensity does indeed exist for a blackguard to turn their backs on their offspring or turn them into the next mcbaddie. It's likelier the relationships will be violent or very selfish rather than full of coddling and honey-poo garbage :P
The current romances are meh IMO. If there were more options besides elves and Anomen, I would probably have a better time. I remember one mod that I had installed from the Gibberlings 3 Modding Community included the Figher/Mage Tyris Flare (a remake of the Golden Axe character). Her "subtle" romance was interesting, and didn't feel like pity-the-elf.
I can't think of any BG2 NPC's who couldn't have a theoretical romance, but I could be wrong (even Edwin could love some woman who believes he is as amazing as he thinks he is, right?) As for BG1, I don't see some characters (namely Tiax, Xzar, and Faldorn) having plausible romantic situations.
Comments
For me, the possibility of relationships in a story is an important one, not for some poorly written fade to black "romance" where the protagonist spends an eternity agreeing with the other, nor for some twisted scenario where the protagonist plays psychotherapist for the love interest - there's a reason why Doctor/Patient relationships are frowned on, and that sort of unhealthy interaction is simply asking for trouble. I am also far too old and cantankerous to care much for sowing one's wild oats types of affair, where the game is littered with conquests more than companions.
I also don't play for the short whoopy cutscene, a la Dragon Age, though I will admit they're rather amusing, especially the filthy brown undies and the fact that Morrigan was apparently sporting a bra bigger than her entire top under there.
One example I actually liked was, amazing enough, Final Fantasy X. Not the forced, achingly tedious "main" romance, but the far more subtle one where if Tidus fights together with one of the girl characters they have particular cutscenes with them, and that girl throws Tidus his ball during a limit break.
Small, short scenes with no game benefit, that went nowhere thanks to the fact they apparently blew their entire budget on the one FMV, but it felt more real and more interesting than the main plot, the little ways that the characters showed their affections and loyalties (the fact my wife is a dead ringer for Rikku did admittedly help).
A romance can be endlessly different in a story, one sided, reciprocated, secret, blatant, or be the shallow Twilight-style obsessive "love" from the beginning of a relationship rather than the deep abiding love and interdependency two people feel towards one another in a committed, happy relationship. A well-written romance might be as subtle in prose as someone smiling at another person, or quietly supporting them without the story ever being so crass as to reveal it to the reader. They might never so much as kiss, unless they did so behind the scenes, yet the bond between them is as plain as day.
It doesn't even have to feature the protagonist. I rather liked the romance that Jaheria and Khallid had; they were loyal to one another, happy, and the loss that Jaheira felt when Khallid died so brutally and cruelly was by far her most interesting moment as a character, and one that was cheapened when she basically shrugged and moved on within scant weeks.
So yeah, I'd like many more romances in the game, because that's one way to explore the characters. It doesn't have to be blatant, it definitely shouldn't revolve around rewriting your personality to coincide with the character you're romancing or even be something that requires a strict "path" to progress. A romance is all about trust and understanding, about growing to appreciate the differences between you as well as the similarities, and about moving past any disagreements, sometimes without even screaming at one another.
It might manifest itself subtly, with the character quietly supporting your leadership, choosing to spend time with you rather than go on a trip with the others, giving up something for you without you even realising it until later, or even be something with only the barest hint they feel anything for you before they step between you and a mortal blow without even a second thought.
It might revolve around bickering, talks that crop up that the player really has no way of "winning", because the other person isn't really arguing, they just wanted to spend time talking to you. Arguments where there isn't really a right or wrong option, they're just interested in seeing what you think about something.
I've rarely encountered anything written to the quality I would want, but I honestly would love to see the natural, organic growth of a relationship where you could go through it time and time again, and even if you went the same way twice, you could still realise new things, see undercurrents that hadn't occurred to you before, to feel by proxy with your character the same connection they grow to feel with their romantic partner. At best, I've encountered a few I thought were rather sweet, but far more often the ones that were "designed" were the ones that fell flat (who thought in NWN 2 that Neeshka developed a far more intriguing relationship with a male NPC than Elanee did?).
Beyond simple romances however, would be relationships.
Some of my favourite parts of Baldur's Gate 2 were the friendships you and your party could build, increasing your understanding and attachment to the character, the Karma that bound you together with your comrades and for the most part left you feeling like a team at the end, rather than just some loosely woven cluster of individuals riding on your divine coattails. Mazzy sticking up for you, Jan confiding in you about his family issues, Minsc finding true purpose again through his friendship with Aerie, and Aerie finally growing a set and telling a certain dwarf where to shove it.
For every NPC I would enjoy a relationship that evolved; not even necessarily in a positive way. Perhaps you may have so many philosophical differences with an NPC over a period of time that they decide to leave you. Perhaps your friendship with them leads them to better understand themselves, overcome some issue (without you necessarily playing psychoanalyst, a solid support structure and someone having your back is often all one needs), and evolve, based on how you and your partymates interacted with them and with each other. One shouldn't need a romance to know someone, and if someone is pursued in a non-romantic manner then there should be a difference with one that is pursued as a potential love interest (though like in real life, these approaches would not coincide perfectly with the emotional results).
Just my 2 Platinum Pieces.
Another point is when I'm playing (or had the time to play) pencil and paper RPG, the main component of play was the conversations, problem solving and relationship building. Role playing is supposed to allow you to take on a persona, not just stats. When you have a computer dishing out the plot lines and conversations, it is a lot harder to have meaningful depth (compared to a flesh and blood DM.) I think these "let's get to know each other" dialogs and subquests that we call "romances" help bridge the gap between killing monsters and weaving a meaningful story.
With that said, I do know the feeling that "I just want to kill things/get XP." When you desire that type of playing time after a long day of whatever reality demands of you, the last thing you want to do is argue with your "digital spouse." It gets even worse when your on your 20th hour of consecutive play and don't want to read any dialog much less nurture a fictional relationship. You just want to (have the computer) roll d20 over and over.
I really like the nuance in the BG world. I'm going through now in BGT and collecting all the books in BG1 and storing them in a chest in Beregost. Once I finish getting them all, I'm going to read them. I'll do the same once I cross over to BG2. The game can be so much more than THAC0 vs AC; it can be a work of literary art.
I'd probably leave the "romance" story lines alone (I think there are enough of them.) I wouldn't mind seeing a similar battle over who's my best friend or the best man at my wedding. It could be the bromance stories.:)
I would love to have more relationship building with the emphasis on comradeship and friendship rather than romance scenarios. As I may have mentioned previously I've no interest in romancing NPCs but would love the opportunity to be able to develop the relationship between party members in a more meaningful way. This would be more akin to a real P&P type party where sharing adversity and hardship welds the team into a tighter cohesive unit who develop bonds with each other rather than CHARNAME just getting his leg over.
(bad joke, I kid of course, carry on folks)
as much as "We slaughtered a village of humanoids and in the heat of our bloodlust, we had rough sex right next to the burning orphanage, our screams of passion overcoming the screams of the dying".
The devs have, however, implied that his romance will be more along the lines of the latter, actually. So, you're right on. Also, I completely agree with this. It's very realistic that such violent individuals would need a break from such things. I adore playing music, but I can't play guitar all the time, or my fingers will bleed. Kind of a stupid example, but really there is a lot more to someone like Dorn who has a passion for violence, than just violence.
That said ... outside of actual romance, who doesn't enjoy sex? Pretty sure loads of greedy, violent gang leaders are getting plenty more than I ever will. Lol!
We just don´t know how this romance will work out.
Additionally as a ruler Khan made things a great deal safer than they had been in China. (To be fair I think the governments he ended up controlling in China were pretty rotten at the core and so things like actual civil service had fell by the wayside.)
Disclaimer: This is all from a World History AP class 7-8 years ago. Details are sketchy at best, and I didn't fact check this stuff.
My opinion is that romances are nice and can be fun, but they can also be very distracting and poorly written. I prefer the friendship elements in the better ones, and really, most of them could do with just that. I'm currently running a "romance" with Jaheira that is still just a friendship, and I'm enjoying getting to know her and sharing the adventure with her.
In the end though, I'm mostly playing computer games for the strategy and combat. Well-written characters add spice to the soup and put icing on the cake, romanceable or not. Hmm, I think I'm getting hungry in anticipation of U.S. Thanksgiving. I'm full of food metaphors, today.
Reading his Candlekeep entry, his brand of "fatherhood" may well be cruelly ignoring his offspring to encourage them to grow strong, but I can definitely see him willingly settling with someone who doesn't make him "weak", and enjoying the birth of a mini-Dorn for whom he will care for in his own way.
Evil doesn't preclude attachment, and I doubt very much that the brutal Blackguard is a practising Buddhist.
Now if you're asking if he'd care about the kid beyond what that kid could do for him, or wouldn't kill his own kid? Doubtful, but then he'd also probably be the only one he'd allow to kill the kid. There is evidence in the write up that Dorn cared for his mother, but he hated her weakness and thought they'd both be better without each other. Granted I could have misinterpreted his intent.
I think blackguards are a pretty diverse lot. You do have the cookie cutter "VALENTINES AND DIAPERS ARE FOR SISSIES" bunch. But there are the guys that raise the next in line. There are probably some that *do* actually dote on their children generously or even selfishly. Some may be sociopaths and treat their offspring as little more than toys or trophies.
I doubt any would devote so much time to child-rearing and would leave that duty to servants or slaves.
I know it sounds far-fetched, but I look to dictators and even mafia dons and their families to see how things played out. The propensity does indeed exist for a blackguard to turn their backs on their offspring or turn them into the next mcbaddie. It's likelier the relationships will be violent or very selfish rather than full of coddling and honey-poo garbage :P
Anomen could do his Shatner-style.
*ducks*
I can't think of any BG2 NPC's who couldn't have a theoretical romance, but I could be wrong (even Edwin could love some woman who believes he is as amazing as he thinks he is, right?) As for BG1, I don't see some characters (namely Tiax, Xzar, and Faldorn) having plausible romantic situations.