I want a romance where I don't have to fix or babysit my love interest. I am not interested in playing mommy or referee or in being my lover's psychologist. Can't I meet one man who just has his shit together and is interested in me for me without dragging in twenty associated tons of baggage? Someone who appreciates me as a colleague and fellow kick-ass fighter- someone who can take care of themselves, and who I can lean on without always having to be the strong one? Is that too much to ask?
Can't I meet one man who just has his shit together and is interested in me for me without dragging in twenty associated tons of baggage?
This makes me wonder if you're still talking about Baldur's Gate or ... Something else. ;-)
(In a game, there's nothing inherently interesting or dramatic about the emotionally stable. Which is why, I imagine, Viconia is so tragic, Aerie is so needy, and Anomen is such a complete clown).
I would like a random romance, where my answer don't necessary have to had only 1 answer or consequence, can be random by a roll, by the place or moment i choose the option or even based in which quests are already done or not, even based in the reputation, alignment and which NPCs are with me at the moment.
Ex:
An evil aligned NPC:
"I see soo much goodness in you."
"Fuck that main char, i know you, do you truly believe i'm going to fall for this shit?"
While i feel that Bg2 was VERY good with romances, i can't see a reason to not have more options.
Romance options was one of the reasons why BG2 hooked me so much, an npc that reacts very differently to my dialogue options and keeps me engaged in a game was something i had never experienced before, it felt the game was alive to me.
Nowadays while it's still pleasant it's not as an important factor for me, but i still enjoy it as part of the game and spices things up instead of just fighting .
More choices mean multiple endings! It's a good way to expand replayability, and i'm a sucker for endings! I absolutely love to see them all, and the characters you enjoy the most during your travels are the ones you want to know what happens the most.
In my opinion, this question is slightly mis-aimed. The question is really about how developed the NPCs should be. (and some of the answers reflect that) Romance is a subset, and unfortunately, a subset that is often done in a very strange way. As neleothsze so aptly pointed out, some sort of romantic interaction is virtually certain under the conditions which most RPGs exist in. However, this becomes difficult when the PC is allowed to be anyone/anything/with any behavior pattern.
This leads to a situation in which Romance, becomes a generic "sexual interest" plot that doesn't say much about either the PC or the NPC. And suddenly, you have disputes about the gender orientation of the NPCs, how many of them can be romanced, etc. Because all that is being discussed is a "sexual interest" sideplot.
Ideally, (IMHO) any romantic story that exists should do so to further develop the NPC and (if at all possible) the PC. It should be an extension of who the NPC is, why they like you, what sort of future they are trying reach with the relationship, etc. (as opposed to "NPC is attracted to PC, is awkward about it for a bit and then takes it to the next stage")
If done as a way to develop the characters, many of those previous questions become moot. e.g. Why can't the PC romance every NPC?, because X/Y/Keldorn/Mordin/etc. have specific reasons to not be interested in a sexual relationship with the PC. It is part of who the character IS.
For me, the biggest concern focuses on what there isn't. (generally speaking) That is, non-romantic character arcs.
The reason this question exists is because the longest and most involved NPC interactions are always the romantic ones. Any character that you are not actively romancing often has very little to say or major interactions with the PC. Any potential romance you halt pretty much ends the character development.
I would personally like to see other developed relationships: -Bonding as "blood brothers/sisters", a deep friendship and close connection that is entirely unromantic -older NPC serving as a surrogate father/mentor or "team mom" (in more than a brief token way) -Friendly competition, (i.e. one NPC questions why he cannot be the leader, resulting in a constant effort to prove superiority, PC and NPC might not even really like each other, but deeply respect each others abilities and talents,) -etc.
I feel that pursuing other lines could make for some very memorable and interesting characters and character development.
But until then, if the only long term relationship that is available is Romance, I simply want them to be well developed character focused arcs.
I want a romance where I don't have to fix or babysit my love interest. I am not interested in playing mommy or referee or in being my lover's psychologist. Can't I meet one man who just has his shit together and is interested in me for me without dragging in twenty associated tons of baggage? Someone who appreciates me as a colleague and fellow kick-ass fighter- someone who can take care of themselves, and who I can lean on without always having to be the strong one? Is that too much to ask?
This, so much. IMHO a lot of video game romances are terrible because the creators feel that without adding an incredible amount of whiny angst it would become boring - and then it becomes boring because of it. Romances shoundn't begin and end in emotional baggage sharing. I have a hard time accepting that my character feels anything more than sorry for the other person if all their interactions are about the others problems. That is not romantic banter, that is a therapy session. While it is better than - for example - the way Skyrim handled it (which is just pathetic), it is still very far from the way it should be.
- the way Skyrim handled it (which is just pathetic), it is still very far from the way it should be.
I didn't really miss romance in Skyrim, though it's implementation was so simplistic as to the point of near absence. I missed dialogue, you have these companions who will follow you to the ends of the earth but they don't talk to you at all and you can't talk to them, you just ask them to carry stuff. They should have had some mini quests or something, felt like a missed opportunity.
@Moomintroll: Not sure mini-quests would make anything better - it's not like "Fable 3" was significantly improved by playing pattycake with prospective love interests...
@Moomintroll: Not sure mini-quests would make anything better - it's not like "Fable 3" was significantly improved by playing pattycake with prospective love interests...
That sounds awful! you have my sympathies. I'm currently part way through the Vampire missions in Skyrim-Dawnguard and finding the companion chats really good.
I have stayed out of the whole romance debate and other stuff. Because you like it or you don't and if you don't you can make Jaheria and Aerie or whoever feel like a jerk and it's done and over, no romance and cuddles for you. If you want it that's fine too.
Personally, the only romance choice that I would like to see is Minsc and CHARNAME getting absolutlely sh*tfaced in the Friendly Arm and Boo getting used incorrectly. They could pipe in Electric Sixes Gay bar track and perhaps even show the cutscene of the night at the inn... the rat in this case would be running for it's life...
If prejudice doesn't exist in D&D as many here sustain, there's no need or reason for the existence of an exclusive sexual option bar also, or would you like the existence of a straight bar?
It might still work. Consider that even if the setting is "all inclusive" people want to form communities with others who share their interests. Gamers naturally gravitate to game stores, and if there is more than one option in their area they gravitate to the one that matches their interests and needs best. If there are six bars in a city, and one develops a reputation for homosexual clientele, then if a guy wants to pick up another guy they're more likely to gravitate to the bar with others who share their preferences. If they're more interested in something another bar offers, then if the setting is "all inclusive" they would be just as welcome there. So they might go to the "gay bar" if they're looking for a partner or the "Politics Bar" if they want to talk about politics or the "Gambling Bar" if they want a good game of cards.
Plus, if the numbers match up to real life, homosexuality would comprise only a percentage of the population making a bar popular for meeting others sharing your proclivities make even more sense.
If prejudice doesn't exist in D&D as many here sustain, there's no need or reason for the existence of an exclusive sexual option bar also, or would you like the existence of a straight bar?
@Kamuizin Why is a Gay Bar detrimental, or prejudiced? It's just a place where you can grab another guy's buns and not have to play Rugby (or American football) for it to be OK.
Sorry if you were upset by my post. Not my style to upset anyone. I do try and make people smile. Sometimes I miss the mark.
Talking about missing the mark, as it were. I remember once meeting a very loud 'yank' being the best word to describe him at Luton airport. He decided to announce that 'You Brits arrre farrrr gayerrr thaaaan us Amerrricaaans'
I looked him straight in the eye and replied 'At least it's something to fall back on' (having heard a similar joke before, of course!)
Ruddy 'yank' didn't get it... Luckily there was a Canadian(?) nearby to talk normal(?) to him and explain it.
I think he wanted to hit me! (He had a considerable wieght advantage) Instead, he talked to my wife, who had just returned from getting a bottle of water, in quite a stern manner may I add, and asked her if she knew I was in fact gay.
My wife was quite bewildered, but luckily the security men asked for a little chat.
Soooooooo, you see I should already realise that not everyone has my humour, or viewpoints. Especially as I cannot find my ire if no one is actually hurt physically or mentally by an attempt at humour... I would prefer them to say... That joke was crud.
I love @Moomintroll 's idea for a Gay Bar on the promenade or in Baldur's Gate itself!
I can see it now... The Blue Oyster, filled with Barbarian types in leather and handlebar moustaches sporting leopard loincloths... Imoen would have a field day with her 'Your a queer fella ain't ya' repetoire!
Sterotypical and way off reality... But funny Naked Gun 3 and 3/4s stylee.
@Moomintroll At least I made 1 person smile! It does remind me though to stay away from 'romance threads' and stick to the 'Find Balduran's underpants threads.'
Far safer to all concerned... Especially for small rodents...
The thing I keep thinking is: romance at what cost? Modders can make romance mods. Developers can do things that we modders only dream of. Ask yourself how you would ask them to prioritize their tasks:
Romance or features? Romance or bug fixes? Romance or game mechanics? Romance or compatibility? Romance or mod utilities and support?
If the devs make BGEE work with modding tools (or even make modding tools!), then the modding community can deal with romances (and certainly will, regardless). The developers have more important things to do. Namely the things that I (a modder) cannot!
@Anduin don't worry, you didn't bothered me with the comment.
But i give back the question to you with the affirmative:
"Waukeen's Promenade needs a Straight Bar."
If people that defend gay content are still true to their justifies, in Faerûn there's no prejudice that would make a need for an special bar for gay content, you could do it in any bar.
Ps: i get only a bit bothered with the last part, i play amateur american footbal (rugby is similar but not the same) and i never grabbed the butt of another guy, in the rare moments that i play in DE position i always aim for the legs:)!
@Kamuizin It always makes me smile to see a similar bod the other side of the pond! I play rugby... not sure of American footie rules. But strangely when I was a kid I would throw the ball on the ground to score a try! You need a hand on the ball to score in rugby.
Not sure if you have scrums in American footie, but basically it's where you hug every guy around you and push for god almighty, while trying to kick the ball nearer to the other side. Whilst you encourage your memebers on. I'm usually the fella at the end of the game that has spotless shorts and top ripped to buggery...
Anyway. Agree to disagree It would be nice to be able to hook up with anyone in any bar... In fact, I think you can do that it reality... you just need to hang a hanky or a pair of gloves out of a certian jean pocket...
This may be a complete urban legend... I really don't know. To make mattters worse. I apparently have, according to my friends gay and not, a very, very broken gaydar... True sight would be such a bonus in the real world...
Point taken, @Shandyr. I'll add this to try to help clarify my meaning:
If the developers add SOME romance (they already are, aren't they?), then good! People like that stuff and any support for the Enhanced Edition is great. However, let's not get too crazy. There are a LOT of aspects to this game that can be improved. Let's not ask for so much romance that we don't get the other things.
Summery: Devs add a LITTLE romance --> FINE! Devs add a LOT of romance --> I want to know what was sacrificed for that, yeah? Adding huge varieties of romance is not what I want my game designers to be doing when there are so many things that could be done!
I don't think romances are absolutely necessary for a game. Just look at the recent Bioware games right now. Most of the in-depth characterization of the characters is done through romances. Is it really needed? Do we really need to have the option of banging every companion in our party, so to speak? I'd rather want to see more friendly banters added, as in, more conversations between the PC and NPCs in a frienly relationship, not a romantic one. The 'closer' the PC gets to the other character, the more he will be able to get to know about his friends without having to stumble into a relationship. Or add some conversations on various points of interests. Or add silly banters such as Jan's stories in BG 2. I don't think sex scenes are necessary in games either. When my Warden in DA:O got intimate with Alistair, I just skipped the scene. I just don't need to see such things, I'm already satisfied to know that my PC has a reliable partner (Alistair chose to remain a Grey Warden in my story and in my head they stayed together until their death) and a merry band of interesting companions whom she can call her friends. @Anduin: Err...Let's not...do that to Boo, ok...
Comments
(In a game, there's nothing inherently interesting or dramatic about the emotionally stable. Which is why, I imagine, Viconia is so tragic, Aerie is so needy, and Anomen is such a complete clown).
Ex:
An evil aligned NPC:
"I see soo much goodness in you."
"Fuck that main char, i know you, do you truly believe i'm going to fall for this shit?"
An good aligned NPC:
"I see soo much goodness in you."
"Thanks, that's mean a lot comming from you."
While i feel that Bg2 was VERY good with romances, i can't see a reason to not have more options.
Romance options was one of the reasons why BG2 hooked me so much, an npc that reacts very differently to my dialogue options and keeps me engaged in a game was something i had never experienced before, it felt the game was alive to me.
Nowadays while it's still pleasant it's not as an important factor for me, but i still enjoy it as part of the game and spices things up instead of just fighting
More choices mean multiple endings! It's a good way to expand replayability, and i'm a sucker for endings! I absolutely love to see them all, and the characters you enjoy the most during your travels are the ones you want to know what happens the most.
This leads to a situation in which Romance, becomes a generic "sexual interest" plot that doesn't say much about either the PC or the NPC. And suddenly, you have disputes about the gender orientation of the NPCs, how many of them can be romanced, etc. Because all that is being discussed is a "sexual interest" sideplot.
Ideally, (IMHO) any romantic story that exists should do so to further develop the NPC and (if at all possible) the PC. It should be an extension of who the NPC is, why they like you, what sort of future they are trying reach with the relationship, etc. (as opposed to "NPC is attracted to PC, is awkward about it for a bit and then takes it to the next stage")
If done as a way to develop the characters, many of those previous questions become moot. e.g. Why can't the PC romance every NPC?, because X/Y/Keldorn/Mordin/etc. have specific reasons to not be interested in a sexual relationship with the PC. It is part of who the character IS.
For me, the biggest concern focuses on what there isn't. (generally speaking) That is, non-romantic character arcs.
The reason this question exists is because the longest and most involved NPC interactions are always the romantic ones. Any character that you are not actively romancing often has very little to say or major interactions with the PC. Any potential romance you halt pretty much ends the character development.
I would personally like to see other developed relationships:
-Bonding as "blood brothers/sisters", a deep friendship and close connection that is entirely unromantic
-older NPC serving as a surrogate father/mentor or "team mom" (in more than a brief token way)
-Friendly competition, (i.e. one NPC questions why he cannot be the leader, resulting in a constant effort to prove superiority, PC and NPC might not even really like each other, but deeply respect each others abilities and talents,)
-etc.
I feel that pursuing other lines could make for some very memorable and interesting characters and character development.
But until then, if the only long term relationship that is available is Romance, I simply want them to be well developed character focused arcs.
Romances shoundn't begin and end in emotional baggage sharing. I have a hard time accepting that my character feels anything more than sorry for the other person if all their interactions are about the others problems. That is not romantic banter, that is a therapy session. While it is better than - for example - the way Skyrim handled it (which is just pathetic), it is still very far from the way it should be.
I'm currently part way through the Vampire missions in Skyrim-Dawnguard and finding the companion chats really good.
Personally, the only romance choice that I would like to see is Minsc and CHARNAME getting absolutlely sh*tfaced in the Friendly Arm and Boo getting used incorrectly. They could pipe in Electric Sixes Gay bar track and perhaps even show the cutscene of the night at the inn... the rat in this case would be running for it's life...
Whizz to 1.23 to see action shot of Boo...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HTN6Du3MCgI
Will it happen? WE CAN ONLY HOPE!
And if it does, this game will go down in history as the BEST EVER...
And if not, well maybe in next edition 14 years on in 2026...
Plus, if the numbers match up to real life, homosexuality would comprise only a percentage of the population making a bar popular for meeting others sharing your proclivities make even more sense.
Sorry if you were upset by my post. Not my style to upset anyone. I do try and make people smile. Sometimes I miss the mark.
Talking about missing the mark, as it were. I remember once meeting a very loud 'yank' being the best word to describe him at Luton airport. He decided to announce that 'You Brits arrre farrrr gayerrr thaaaan us Amerrricaaans'
I looked him straight in the eye and replied 'At least it's something to fall back on' (having heard a similar joke before, of course!)
Ruddy 'yank' didn't get it... Luckily there was a Canadian(?) nearby to talk normal(?) to him and explain it.
I think he wanted to hit me! (He had a considerable wieght advantage) Instead, he talked to my wife, who had just returned from getting a bottle of water, in quite a stern manner may I add, and asked her if she knew I was in fact gay.
My wife was quite bewildered, but luckily the security men asked for a little chat.
Soooooooo, you see I should already realise that not everyone has my humour, or viewpoints. Especially as I cannot find my ire if no one is actually hurt physically or mentally by an attempt at humour... I would prefer them to say... That joke was crud.
I love @Moomintroll 's idea for a Gay Bar on the promenade or in Baldur's Gate itself!
I can see it now... The Blue Oyster, filled with Barbarian types in leather and handlebar moustaches sporting leopard loincloths... Imoen would have a field day with her 'Your a queer fella ain't ya' repetoire!
Sterotypical and way off reality... But funny Naked Gun 3 and 3/4s stylee.
Far safer to all concerned... Especially for small rodents...
Romance or features?
Romance or bug fixes?
Romance or game mechanics?
Romance or compatibility?
Romance or mod utilities and support?
If the devs make BGEE work with modding tools (or even make modding tools!), then the modding community can deal with romances (and certainly will, regardless). The developers have more important things to do. Namely the things that I (a modder) cannot!
But i give back the question to you with the affirmative:
"Waukeen's Promenade needs a Straight Bar."
If people that defend gay content are still true to their justifies, in Faerûn there's no prejudice that would make a need for an special bar for gay content, you could do it in any bar.
Ps: i get only a bit bothered with the last part, i play amateur american footbal (rugby is similar but not the same) and i never grabbed the butt of another guy, in the rare moments that i play in DE position i always aim for the legs:)!
Not sure if you have scrums in American footie, but basically it's where you hug every guy around you and push for god almighty, while trying to kick the ball nearer to the other side. Whilst you encourage your memebers on. I'm usually the fella at the end of the game that has spotless shorts and top ripped to buggery...
Anyway. Agree to disagree
This may be a complete urban legend... I really don't know. To make mattters worse. I apparently have, according to my friends gay and not, a very, very broken gaydar... True sight would be such a bonus in the real world...
If the developers add SOME romance (they already are, aren't they?), then good! People like that stuff and any support for the Enhanced Edition is great. However, let's not get too crazy. There are a LOT of aspects to this game that can be improved. Let's not ask for so much romance that we don't get the other things.
Summery: Devs add a LITTLE romance --> FINE! Devs add a LOT of romance --> I want to know what was sacrificed for that, yeah? Adding huge varieties of romance is not what I want my game designers to be doing when there are so many things that could be done!
@Anduin: Err...Let's not...do that to Boo, ok...
IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED ! :P
This time lets do it for fun.
I would love to romance Boo... Feed him flowers, run around a wheel... You know hamster style stuff...