[SPOILER ENDING] It does not make sense
red_codec
Member Posts: 44
The main char being the suspect of skie's murder makes zero sense to be honest. I feel the plot needs the rationale and intelligence behind it upped.
If you look at the facts surrounding your main char being the accused of skie's murder, none of it adds up. All the evidence points otherwise.
1. No witness actually saw main char commit the act itself, just found him with her blood on his hands and at crime scene when it happened.
2. No logical motive. What could the main char gain from killing her? Why would he do it?
3. No murder weapon. Skie is obviously punctured with something hence the blood. But if the main char is caught at the scene but he doesn't have the murder weapon with him, and the murder weapon isn't found, then its very questionable...
4. Belt said as much. The murder seems premeditated since it is done in a fashion whereby Skie couldn't be resurrected. This means someone wants to kill her in a way whereby she cannot be raised to testify against her murderer... And if it is premeditated, then it is planned. If it is planned, you would think the main char would do it somewhere and someway whereby he won't be caught, not inside a huge premise full of flaming fists and witnesses.
5. Assuming main char rescued skie several times over the campaign, had the main char wanted skie dead, it would make alot more sense for him to kill her when she is lost and wandered outside of the camp. That way no witnesses, her body may never be found, and others would easily believe she was killed by crusaders or other dangerous beasts of the wild... And if he has rescued her that many times, it makes no sense for him to kill her. Why rescue someone several times if he wanted her dead?
Quite the number of loose ends here
If you look at the facts surrounding your main char being the accused of skie's murder, none of it adds up. All the evidence points otherwise.
1. No witness actually saw main char commit the act itself, just found him with her blood on his hands and at crime scene when it happened.
2. No logical motive. What could the main char gain from killing her? Why would he do it?
3. No murder weapon. Skie is obviously punctured with something hence the blood. But if the main char is caught at the scene but he doesn't have the murder weapon with him, and the murder weapon isn't found, then its very questionable...
4. Belt said as much. The murder seems premeditated since it is done in a fashion whereby Skie couldn't be resurrected. This means someone wants to kill her in a way whereby she cannot be raised to testify against her murderer... And if it is premeditated, then it is planned. If it is planned, you would think the main char would do it somewhere and someway whereby he won't be caught, not inside a huge premise full of flaming fists and witnesses.
5. Assuming main char rescued skie several times over the campaign, had the main char wanted skie dead, it would make alot more sense for him to kill her when she is lost and wandered outside of the camp. That way no witnesses, her body may never be found, and others would easily believe she was killed by crusaders or other dangerous beasts of the wild... And if he has rescued her that many times, it makes no sense for him to kill her. Why rescue someone several times if he wanted her dead?
Quite the number of loose ends here
3
Comments
Possibly why that particular person was selected as the victim.
After playing the end one more time and seeing how the PC is actually *unconscious* when the FF guard enters the crime scene, plus the murder weapon not present, it gets more and more a railroad of "the devs decided the people would accuse the PC of being guilty because of his Bhaal heritage", less a "Irenicus tricked the PC into being seen as a murder suspect", which is not wrong per se, but which opens up to questions and discussions like this one.
Much more should have been done to set this up, such as some playful romantic banter between Skie and CHARNAME that could have been retrospectively misconstrued as motive or perhaps some unexplained mid-game wounds on Skie that could be retrospectively misinterpreted as a previous attack by CHARNAME. Alternatively, the devs could have showed Skie's grieving father realizing the evidence is too weak to convict CHARNAME and then deliberately spreading lies about CHARNAME (perhaps deliberately manipulating the trial as well) to ensure a guilty verdict against the person he sincerely (but wrongly) believes victimized his daughter. Had those things happened, it would at least be possible to understand how a reasonable person might believe CHARNAME to be guilty. As it stands, though, it's blindingly obvious to anyone who cares to look that CHARNAME is being framed, which detracts from the narrative and makes the endgame pack less of a punch than it otherwise could have.
A lot of us players view our CHARNAME as some great hero. He saved Baldur's Gate (technically twice, if we consider SoD). He ended the Iron Crisis. He helped all these people (read: did the side quests). Etc. Etc. We forget that CHARNAME is still a Bhaalspawn. To much of the populace of Baldur's Gate, CHARNAME was always just a different flavor of the same kind of thing that Sarevok was; those folks expected CHARNAME to "go bad".
Much of the series deals with the theme of inevitability - can you carve your own path, or are you destined to succumb to your taint as nearly everyone aside from Gorion and your party seems to believe you will? It makes perfect sense that people would judge you unfairly regardless of your attempts to do good as they believe that murder is your ultimate namesake.
That said, there are those who doubt your guilt depending on your playthrough, and the "good" ending has you escorted safely outside of the city on Belt's orders. If it were up to him, you would probably be off the hook, but he has a single-minded populace and a duke made irrational by grief and anger to deal with.
Beamdog might have improved the ending by showing the city's leaders discussing "what to do with" Charname and better showing Entar's unwillingness to see reason, but that would require more scenes with his accent... and no one wants that.
Just don't take the wrong turn in the sewers...
Wow I never knew there are alternate ending scenes. I play a goody-goody 99% , just not a paladin
Personally, the only rationale I see behind this outcome is that people are scared and suspicious of the player because he is the bhaalspawn. Throughout the story there had been small snippets here and there about people's fear and suspicion of the main char. The problem is how the skie murder accusation is done, it is not done in a way that is COHERENT. It would be much better if the one who caught you (corporal dunce?) or some other npc screams out "murder! its... its.. the bhaalspawn! its him! look at his hands! all red with the blood of the victim! It must be him, the child of murder who has done this!"
Followed by other fearful mob npcs echoing the same triggering a mass hysteria...
Duke Entar and Duke Jannah strikes me off as people who won't be foolish enough to believe this outright. I remember Belt halted the guards from taking the main char party when the main char party intervened at Sarevok's coronation to hear the main char out. But it would make alot more sense, if because the huge mobs at baldur's gate scream for the bhaalspawn's death out of fear, the dukes have no choice but to go along with that accusation in order to appease the masses and keep the order in the city which is already overflooded with refuges.
After which, duke belt visits you at your cell and explains he had no choice but to do it, to put you in a cell temporarily and that he would investigate and clear your name in meantime. Also tells its for the main char's safety because the mobs want the main char dead now.
After he leaves, during the night, a large group of thugs from the general populace breach into the flaming fist to try to kill the main char screaming "the dukes have been blinded by the bhaalspawn! they are too afraid to take action! but we will! otherwise this bhaalspawn will bring death upon us all!" They break into the compound. At this point Imoen and friends break the main char out of his cell, main char party with imoen fights off the thugs and escape into the tunnel/sewers...
THIS would have made alot more sense......
@rapsam2003 and others, you misunderstand my motivation. I am not saying that the story couldn't go so the PC is framed for a murder (s)he didn't commit because people only see the Bhaal heritage. What I criticize is the poor and unconvincing way BeamDog chose to tell this tale.
And I keep on about "clearing the name" because the whole thing makes playing BGII like nothing happened impossible. Which wouldn't be *if* BeamDog would have made it clear that there are people, especially Dukes of BG city who know that the PC was framed. I think that's what BeamDog *wanted* to tell, but they failed. Otherwise, the whole discussion in this thread wouldn't happen.
Indeed, it would have. I would very much prefer this ending over the one that is in the game.
And if we say that Duke Entar is the only one with a really good reason not to believe anything but to be blinded by hate, alright, I could accept that, too. But I can't accept that despite all the NPCs believing in the PC's innocence and after everything (good) the PC did, that this shouldn't play any role in the long run.
I am allergic to drama in novel/movies for drama's sake. The SoD ending is like drama for drama's sake: The devs wanted the PC to be framed for a murder (s)he didn't commit. So they designed everyone to believe in the PC's guilt, with no-one reasoning for him/her (Ha! We *will* believe you to be guilty! Oh, we ignore the evicence. Now, isn't *this* a great dramatic ending!). For me, it's a tale badly told that leaves a foul taste in the mouth.
That's not how real people behave.
Entar Silvershield made up his mind to blame the PC for his poor parenting skills early on. So he was quite happy to believe the PC killed her, irrespective of any evidence on either side. No, he is not being reasonable or rational or nice. There has never been any evidence to suggest that he was ever reasonable, rational or nice. What he is is very powerful.
As for the general population, they are simply afraid. Again, they are not being reasonable or nice, because that is not how people are.
All I expect is the devs telling the tale in a believable way. If told in a way I can believe it, I'll accept the whole city going crazy. The way they did it it feels like the player being railroaded to make the ending overly dramatic.
Still, Duke Entar plus all the citizens of BG city believing in the PC being the murderer wouldn't make a scenario like suggested by @red_codec unrealistic, on the contrary. It would have made the ending believable and dramatic at the same time.
Remember that from BG2 SoA's intro? Well, this is the dark circumstance that caused you to leave Baldur's Gate. Beamdog railroaded us for this reason, giving us the chance to redeem our reputation would mean the intro of SoA would need to be changed accordingly, which Beamdog cannot do, so they have no choice but to railroad us at the end of SoD, I'm surprised no one realized this.
As for plot points or drama being forced...Irenicus instakills your whole party in Spellhold with no save if you attack him without recruiting the inmates first. Saemon - a ship captain - can teleport you out of the most heavily warded prison in the realms after the game specifically tells you this is impossible. In service of the narrative, the cowled wizards will never try to send you to spellhold even if you make a full party of wild mages dropping cows from the sky. Imoen is suddenly a Bhaalspawn, your evil PC starts BG2 with Minsc and Jaheira as companions with no explanation prior to SoD, thieves can't side with Bodhi (but she'll take an Undead Hunter), the rift device kills you the moment you walk out of the sewers with it, it is impossible to refuse to take the silver sword, Bodhi kidnaps and vampirizes your love interest via unstoppable cutscene, the entire Irenicus in Hell sequence forces you to remove all ambiguity from your alignment, the pocket plane is a plot device literally designed to keep the final chapter on rails, and you can't question Melissan or call her out despite the big red "villain" sign painted on her forehead. The series takes the reins from the player all the time in order to force its narrative, often in ways that don't make sense if you're unwilling to suspend disbelief and just go with it.
If Beamdog had written anything in the above paragraph, people would be railing against them for it here. I didn't mind the railroading or forced plot point at the end of SoD because it's perfectly normal for the BG series - I have my own issues with the ending, but I'm at least going to judge it by the same standard that I judge, say, Throne of Bhaal.
I'd really wish you and other people would stop defending SoD against any and all criticism, just for the sake of it. Because, no, not all criticism is some transgender-hate in disguise.
Some are really valid points and simply comparing it with the original BG/BG2 and its flaws, is doing noone a favor.
If it was already badly handed in BG/BG2 that's no excuse to repeat those same mistakes in SoD again. Quite the opposite.
But the behavior of Entar Silvershield and the mob is not one of them - the characters behave far more authentically like real people than is typical in fantasy.
As for the original games being criticized 15 years ago for the plot points I listed, I have to disagree - these were mostly handwaved upon release and have never been a major point of contention. Again, Irenicus instakills your entire party in BG2 if you choose to fight him in a way other than how the writers want you to - that's as forced or more so than anything in SoD. I'm not saying that should make the game immune from criticism, I'm just suggesting a little perspective.
I'd really wish you and other people would stop defending SoD against any and all criticism, just for the sake of it. Because, no, not all criticism is some transgender-hate in disguise.
Some are really valid points and simply comparing it with the original BG/BG2 and its flaws, is doing noone a favor.
If it was already badly handed in BG/BG2 that's no excuse to repeat those same mistakes in SoD again. Quite the opposite.
Your Amber Scott reference was a total non sequitur; I never suggested that this criticism had anything to do with transphobia. When I say that some people hold this game to a different standard, I'm assuming that most of the transphobes have left.
And if you think I defend SoD against any and all criticism just for the sake of doing so, you need to lurk more. I agree with criticisms that feel valid within the context of the series (didn't I just say I had my own problems with the ending?) and call out criticisms that imo aren't. Sorry.
I'll tell you something, in my blunt german manner: I don't care at all about your petty american/anglosaxon issues or about Amber Scott as a person. I do not know her, she does not know me and that will not change.
But to give you and your all so "progressive" mates some perspective, as you like to call it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilo_Wanders
This guy, a Transvestite, had a really popular TV show in Germany, starting in 1994, which covered all kinds of sexuality/gender issues. Basically everybody in Germany knows this guy and his show.
This actually had a real impact on society, not some 20year old RPG. In Germany, Transgenderism is a total non-issue. No politician gets votes for being against it; they would be being laughed at, because it is so obvious they are trying to scapegoat someone.
You, rapsam2003 and others dedicated literally hundreds of posts, just on this petty transgender issue, that's why I mentioned it.
And in every topic from then on, which remotely showed criticism of SoD, you and the others were there, defending it. Why? Sometimes you or other posters even said, that this cricitisicm would actually driven by somer transgender-hate.
If i want to play divide and conquer, I'd put @shawne in, who also was quite vocal about the mentioned "issue", but he also is willing to recognise the really obv. shortcomings of SoD.
So, I'd like to know, what your problems with ending are, since you did not specify them.
Also, im quite fine with simply again lurking from here on, because there are a lot of people here in this forum, who know a lot more about the game mechanics, who are also more friendly then I am and often answer sooner then I saw the topic in the firstplace.
I just thought, I could push some SoD milestone goodies and give advice on SoD situations, where all those hardcore bhaalspawns like semiticod, lordtashiron etc. might still figure out the absolutely best and awesome build.