Being falsely accused of murder is fairly common, especially in the Forgotten Realms, it's true, but neither the friends or family of the victim or those who found the evidence against the guilty knows if the accused are actually innocent or guilty, they go by the rumors and/or evidence they found or know against you, and that's the scary thing about being accused as guilty even though you know you are innocent, but can't prove it but with your words, which mean little to people who have made up their mind about you.
@joluv Sorry, if I appeared being really rude to a native speaker, but as I said, that's how we Germans roll. (generally speaking )
I do not intend to pick a fight, but it just seems to me, that since this "controversy" started, some people are trying do defend SoD against basically any criticism, because they believe the persons, who criticise some aspects of SoD, are doing it because of some hidden anomosity.
@KampfKaninchen Does this really need to be hashed out again? I made hundreds of posts defending SoD's transgender content because others were making hundreds of posts deriding it. That's not the same as assuming any criticism of the game is rooted in transphobia, especially now that most of the transphobes are, as I said, gone.
I have said repeatedly on this forum that I give SoD about a 7.5/10 and no, I'm not going to enumerate my criticisms here to justify myself to you. You can keep calling me out over what was a fairly bland point of contention with @shawne , but I've said pretty much all I have to say regarding my posting history. Maybe you should write a post about the actual topic instead?
EDIT: Better yet, I'd like to know what people think Beamdog could do to make the ending work better - heck, maybe they're even open to adding a few lines at some point.
@Purudaya No, please, no rehashing of this whole madness. I probably should have thrown this in earlier, in a more appropiate topic, but they have all spiraled so totally out of control...it just did not seem worth it, to try to bring in some german(N/NW-european) perspective in it, because noone would be willing to listen anyways.
This absolutely toxic atmosphere surrounding english/american politics really leaves me speechless and bitter.
To be on topic, I am still the only one to agree with the OP , so...I do not feel I could really add something new to the topic. He and jastey said everything already, including some options to improve the situation.
Why would Irenicus do this? It's unnecessary. He's as powerful as he needs to be and can just go anywhere and do anything right basically.
Let's set the stage:
Charname just saved Baldur's Gate again from a villain with odd motivations. This villain has been running a righteous crusade! where she burns down towns and kills common people and is causing all kinds of death and destruction.... What. She's soooo good right? It makes no sense. Anyway, back to the thing:
Charname has just saved the day! Why do we need Skie subplot at this point? Irenicus is so powerful he can just come grab charname and everyone would be like "well I guess he's stuck in hell. I guess that sucks for him but at least he sealed the rift". He would be remembered as the guy like Jerrod who sealed the rift.
It's problematic to have Charname being the assumed killer of a Grand Duke's daughter. Charname is going to be more than famous. He's going to be infamous after this. The Hero Twice Over and the Villain of Baldur's Gate. This person is going to be a Kardashian level of fame with everyone knowing this person's name and story and description. And the icing on the cake is he's escaped prison and is loose on the streets as far as everyone knows. You can't just slide this under the rug! It's not going away!
Do you think Entar Silvershield, as mad as he is about this, is just going to be like: "Oh well he escaped. I guess that's that." No, of course he wouldn't! Entar would go and find out what happened. Maybe he'd assume Amn was involved since BG1 is all about how things are on the brink of war with Amn already. Imagine his surprise when spies later tell him that charname is wandering around the streets of Athkatla (after escaping Chateau Irenicus). I guess he does nothing at this point, right?
Anyway: killing Skie makes no sense and causes more problems than it solves as being a "kewl plot twist" which seems to be all it's there for. Am I missing something?
@KampfKaninchen Fair enough. Also, mine mutter ist aus Deutschland - so I do get that perspective. We also agree on the toxicity of American politics, so at least there's that.
For the ending: the main thing I would change isn't so much the trial (though I would like to see more verbal acknowledgments of the points in Charname's defense) but the sequence during and after your escape. The abrupt cut to title screen after the narrator says "your vision fades to black" is almost as bad as the ending of BG1:EE, which feels similarly truncated. Also, I still don't buy Imoen being the one who gets the party together, especially when playing evil - not only does she not strike me as enough of a leader to pull it off, but the motivations for Minsc and Dynaheir to join over other party members isn't explained as well as it should be. I think Jaheira and Khalid should be the ones to facilitate the whole thing, but then you run into the problem of them possibly dying during the campaign since they're playable.
I tend to give Beamdog a lot of slack when it comes to the narrative setting up BG2 because there are so many constrictions with this being an interquel. But this - and probably the moment where you are discovered with Skie, could use some fleshing out. More exposition from Pepe LePew/Entar Silvershield to highlight his irrationality and power over the situation would help make a good player's imprisonment more believable as well.
I will stick with the contempt of the mob being acceptable, though. The masses tend to get that way in fantasy/fiction in general.
You know, I think somebody brought up the idea of Skie secretly being a Bhaalspawn as well, and honestly, that's not such a bad idea either. It would at least explain Irenicus' interest in her at the end, and with the Soultaker dagger in his possession, he could perform some...experiments on her soul to see what could be done with it, and whether it could be used directly to restore himself. At least that would tie up Irenicus' motivations for the endgame, and he could even push Imoen into rescuing Charname at the end so that he has everybody right where he wants them.
But I'm not arguing that those plot points were egregious or needed to be learned from - unless you're playing a watered down rpg like Skyrim, all crpgs do this to varying extent. It's only when SoD does it that people accuse it of being anomalous or failing to meet par. Not everyone, granted, but those who make post after post nitpicking every little plot hole or narrative constraint on player agency are viewing the game through heavily colored glasses imo.
That's not even true on this very thread: the OP lists several plot holes and never once mentions the original BGs as a comparative measure.
As for the original games being criticized 15 years ago for the plot points I listed, I have to disagree - these were mostly handwaved upon release and have never been a major point of contention. Again, Irenicus instakills your entire party in BG2 if you choose to fight him in a way other than how the writers want you to - that's as forced or more so than anything in SoD. I'm not saying that should make the game immune from criticism, I'm just suggesting a little perspective.
Again, though, you bringing that up in this context is irrelevant - BG2 was written in 2000. SoD was written in 2015-6. For the game to have the narrative problems it has, and for you to essentially argue that "perspective" means aligning it with mistakes made in the past, suggests that Beamdog either shouldn't do better or is incapable of doing better - neither of which speaks well of them.
While I don't appreciate KampfKaninchen's tone in the above post, there has been a serious problem on this forum of certain posters shouting down and dismissing out of hand any attempt to criticize SoD. As I've said elsewhere, I understand the impulse given what happened at launch, but it's becoming exhausting to have these same arguments over and over again. SoD has some serious and blatant flaws in its writing. That is something that can be proven, and analyzed, without requiring comparisons to any other game as a way of mitigating said proof.
Why would Irenicus do this? It's unnecessary. He's as powerful as he needs to be and can just go anywhere and do anything right basically.
Let's set the stage:
Charname just saved Baldur's Gate again from a villain with odd motivations. This villain has been running a righteous crusade! where she burns down towns and kills common people and is causing all kinds of death and destruction.... What. She's soooo good right? It makes no sense. Anyway, back to the thing:
Charname has just saved the day! Why do we need Skie subplot at this point? Irenicus is so powerful he can just come grab charname and everyone would be like "well I guess he's stuck in hell. I guess that sucks for him but at least he sealed the rift". He would be remembered as the guy like Jerrod who sealed the rift.
It's problematic to have Charname being the assumed killer of a Grand Duke's daughter. Charname is going to be more than famous. He's going to be infamous after this. The Hero Twice Over and the Villain of Baldur's Gate. This person is going to be a Kardashian level of fame with everyone knowing this person's name and story and description. And the icing on the cake is he's escaped prison and is loose on the streets as far as everyone knows. You can't just slide this under the rug! It's not going away!
Do you think Entar Silvershield, as mad as he is about this, is just going to be like: "Oh well he escaped. I guess that's that." No, of course he wouldn't! Entar would go and find out what happened. Maybe he'd assume Amn was involved since BG1 is all about how things are on the brink of war with Amn already. Imagine his surprise when spies later tell him that charname is wandering around the streets of Athkatla (after escaping Chateau Irenicus). I guess he does nothing at this point, right?
Anyway: killing Skie makes no sense and causes more problems than it solves as being a "kewl plot twist" which seems to be all it's there for. Am I missing something?
You are right, IF SoD where the only Baldur's Gate product Beamdog where ever going to make it would serve no purpose. Pretty much like the ending of Empire Strikes Back in 1980.
Which is why it is quite obviously a set-up for Baldur's Gate 3.
As for Irenicus's in game motivation, he has several:
1) weaken the PC's resistance to Bhaal's essence by making them feel rejected.
2) strip the PC of potential allies - Irenicus is not all powerful.
3) Skie is a Bhaalspawn. Trapping a tiny portion of Bhaal's essence is Irenicus's "Ace in the Hole", in the unlikely event that he should ever find himself defeated and surrounded by demons in the lower planes and Bhaal getting resurrected.
Jon Irenicus is they guy who taught Xantos how to play chess.
2. No logical motive. What could the main char gain from killing her? Why would he do it?
Thinking about it, this could be easily justified with th fact that the PC just returned from hell. I am surprised the devs didn't make use of this but only sticked to the bridge incident instead.
"He is a Bhaal spawn! A child of the god of murder! And he just *returned from hell*!
What happened to him there?! Maybe he turned to pure evil! See his eyes! The evil is lurking there! Everyone *run* for their lives!"
I can only stress that if told right, I would totally go with the "mob wants PC dead" ending. As it is, the PC lies unconscious in the same room as the murdered Skie, and Bence Duncan asks "What have you done, CHARNAME? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?". Instead of the weak tries to justify myself or to appeal to Duncan's sense of reason give me a reply option to set things right ("What to you mean, what have I done. Skie is dead, I was unconscious, the murder weapon is nowhere to be seen, or at least I don't see it. What are you accusing *me* for?")
Make then Duncan reply something along the lines of "you are Bhaalspawn, returning from hell, losing control over the evil inside you, the Dukes will decide" and the development about the PC being arrested and people believing him guilty would develop more naturally.
(This, with the suggestions from @red_codec, plus making Jaheira and Khalid being the ones gathering the rescue party and the whole ending would be more satisfying, while staying the same idea overall.)
As for Entar Silvershield, I have no doubt he would still want the PC dead. However, the rest of the ruling council don't care if the PC is guilty or innocent - they just want them gone. Even if they where not a Bhaalspawn, any powerful person with victories and a following is a threat to the ruling class - compare Julius Caesar.
What can Silvershield do? The Flaming Fist have no jurisdiction in Amn, and they don't answer to Silvershield anyway. He could hire Bounty Hunters - but the easiest way to track CHARNAME is to follow the trail of dead bounty hunters.
Most likely, the Flaming Fist would send in a single agent to track the escaped fugitive. Preferably someone who is a high level ranger with personal knowledge of the quarry and is extremely lethal with a bow. But Corwin is a far more reasonable person - chances are they wouldn't be too hard to convince of CHARNAME's innocence, and would probably end up joining them.
@Purudaya: You say that as if people haven't criticized those exact storytelling flaws in the original, though. That Beamdog's writing is flawed along similar lines doesn't exempt them from critique; on the contrary, having the same problems as a game released sixteen years ago isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. You'd think some basic lessons about agency and reflexivity would have sunk in after all that time.
I agree in the general idea that their writing should improve on the foundation from the vanilla games, it does get to the problem of an interquel 15 years after the originals. Already some of the added features to SoD felt a little jarring when coming from BG1 and going into BG2. I think that due to the specific nature of this expansion, the goal needs to be immersion with its source material more than improving upon the source material.
Already I can easily tell that Neera, Dorn and Rasaad are EE NPCs rather than from the original, especially in BG1. Their content is much different than that of the vanilla NPCs. And if the plot of SoD is basically getting us to where we land in Irenicus' dungeon, it will be forced to railroad the plot. Unless Beamdog is allowed to change parts of vanilla BG2 rather than just add in additional content, they have to have SoD end with the canon party being ambushed outside of the city. I think how it was done was at least better explained than the previous explanation of "these were the most popular NPCs and we're assuming the PC was good alignment."
Why would Irenicus do this? It's unnecessary. He's as powerful as he needs to be and can just go anywhere and do anything right basically.
Let's set the stage:
Charname just saved Baldur's Gate again from a villain with odd motivations. This villain has been running a righteous crusade! where she burns down towns and kills common people and is causing all kinds of death and destruction.... What. She's soooo good right? It makes no sense. Anyway, back to the thing:
Charname has just saved the day! Why do we need Skie subplot at this point? Irenicus is so powerful he can just come grab charname and everyone would be like "well I guess he's stuck in hell. I guess that sucks for him but at least he sealed the rift". He would be remembered as the guy like Jerrod who sealed the rift.
It's problematic to have Charname being the assumed killer of a Grand Duke's daughter. Charname is going to be more than famous. He's going to be infamous after this. The Hero Twice Over and the Villain of Baldur's Gate. This person is going to be a Kardashian level of fame with everyone knowing this person's name and story and description. And the icing on the cake is he's escaped prison and is loose on the streets as far as everyone knows. You can't just slide this under the rug! It's not going away!
Do you think Entar Silvershield, as mad as he is about this, is just going to be like: "Oh well he escaped. I guess that's that." No, of course he wouldn't! Entar would go and find out what happened. Maybe he'd assume Amn was involved since BG1 is all about how things are on the brink of war with Amn already. Imagine his surprise when spies later tell him that charname is wandering around the streets of Athkatla (after escaping Chateau Irenicus). I guess he does nothing at this point, right?
Anyway: killing Skie makes no sense and causes more problems than it solves as being a "kewl plot twist" which seems to be all it's there for. Am I missing something?
You are right, IF SoD where the only Baldur's Gate product Beamdog where ever going to make it would serve no purpose. Pretty much like the ending of Empire Strikes Back in 1980.
Which is why it is quite obviously a set-up for Baldur's Gate 3.
As for Irenicus's in game motivation, he has several:
1) weaken the PC's resistance to Bhaal's essence by making them feel rejected.
2) strip the PC of potential allies - Irenicus is not all powerful.
3) Skie is a Bhaalspawn. Trapping a tiny portion of Bhaal's essence is Irenicus's "Ace in the Hole", in the unlikely event that he should ever find himself defeated and surrounded by demons in the lower planes and Bhaal getting resurrected.
Jon Irenicus is they guy who taught Xantos how to play chess.
I don't understand why this would set up BG3. That is apparently going to be a completely different plot and different characters. Charname's story was wrapped up in ToB, any further adventures dealing with a murder investigation are going to be anticlimactic. If any content from SoD is to be continued, it would have to be in additional BG2 content.
Personally I don't want Skie to be a Bhaalspawn, because that makes even less sense than Imoen, plus it becomes every tenth person we meet of any importance is actually a Bhaalspawn. And Irenicus does have backup plans, yes, but I think he's arrogant enough that he doesn't see the PC as a threat EVER. He wouldn't need an ace in the hole to deal with the PC beating him, his contingencies are if the PC decides not to follow him to Spellhold and for attacking Sundanessellar.
Personally I don't want Skie to be a Bhaalspawn, because that makes even less sense than Imoen, plus it becomes every tenth person we meet of any importance is actually a Bhaalspawn. And Irenicus does have backup plans, yes, but I think he's arrogant enough that he doesn't see the PC as a threat EVER. He wouldn't need an ace in the hole to deal with the PC beating him, his contingencies are if the PC decides not to follow him to Spellhold and for attacking Sundanessellar.
Yeah Irenicus doesn't need Skie as an ace in the hole. He could easily say "oh yeah I killed Grendle Bootstamps, bhaalspawn, before I met you" if you want that to happen.
I guess in BG3 they could introduce the soultaker dagger as plot device to do something. Seems not worth the effort of the plot problems (Silvershield gives up looking for Charname after he "escapes" custody, you are probably one of the most famous people in the sword coast - the infamous hero x2 and villain of baldur's gate)
Personally I don't want Skie to be a Bhaalspawn, because that makes even less sense than Imoen, plus it becomes every tenth person we meet of any importance is actually a Bhaalspawn. And Irenicus does have backup plans, yes, but I think he's arrogant enough that he doesn't see the PC as a threat EVER. He wouldn't need an ace in the hole to deal with the PC beating him, his contingencies are if the PC decides not to follow him to Spellhold and for attacking Sundanessellar.
Yeah Irenicus doesn't need Skie as an ace in the hole. He could easily say "oh yeah I killed Grendle Bootstamps, bhaalspawn, before I met you" if you want that to happen.
I guess in BG3 they could introduce the soultaker dagger as plot device to do something. Seems not worth the effort of the plot problems (Silvershield gives up looking for Charname after he "escapes" custody, you are probably one of the most famous people in the sword coast - the infamous hero x2 and villain of baldur's gate)
Grendle Bootstamps is my favorite NPC, though. I would be sad if his soul was taken
@shawne Thanks for making me reexamine my perspective, the point of view of people who feel their critiques are being brushed off as the product of bias is one I should have considered. I also may have projected some themes I've seen in other recent threads onto this one.
When I gave a list of plot points from the previous games, I wasn't trying to say that those were necessarily flaws - without a lot of them, BG2 wouldn't have been able to sustain its narrative. When you have a crpg as big and complex as the BG series, you're going to have moments like those by necessity. I think part of the reason that we're not on the same page is that I'm defending the denial of player agency while you're more critical of the plot itself - my post earlier was more in response to comments re: the narrative being "forced" or railroaded, which I don't necessarily see as a problem.
As for standards of quality, we'll have to agree to disagree - we should expect high standards of writing, but a game that adheres to modern crpg conventions in an attempt to avoid ever forcing its narrative might not feel like Baldur's Gate. In terms of player agency alone, I think SoD's ending fits well within the parameters of the series.
And yes, I do agree that there are areas where the narrative could be improved (mainly in the 3rd act) - but SoD is by no means the low point in a series that contains Throne of Bhaal imo.
So Irenicus frames the PC for murder. Then what? How will he manage to get the PC's soul if the PC gets executed for the murder? Getting the PC's soul is what he is after, after all. Hence why he doesn't actually attack you in BG2 before he has it.
Have anyone here read the Avatar trilogy by Richard Awlinson? If you haven't then it about a group of four adventurers during the time of troubles and I know you will recognize 2 of the names as the adventurers are Midnight, Kelemvor, Cyric and Adon. In the second book of the Trilogy Midnight and Adon are accused of killing the archmage of Shadowdale and sentenced to death because the people of the dale wishes to have someone to blame since they believe he was dead. It should be noted that Elminster fought Bane himself and that the wild magic that infected Faerun during the time of troubles had created a planar opening to Gehenna which is a place of terror he had to go there in order to be able to close the breach in a reliable manner and then fight trough a lot of shit to get back to Faeron.
PS: After the time of troubles Midnight took the name Mystra.
So Irenicus frames the PC for murder. Then what? How will he manage to get the PC's soul if the PC gets executed for the murder? Getting the PC's soul is what he is after, after all. Hence why he doesn't actually attack you in BG2 before he has it.
I've been thinking about that as well. He sets you up to get arrested and executed. But why would he do that, if he actually wants your soul for himself? In that case, he also must have planned your escape of the prison and thus he had to set up Imoen or the dukes as well, so he could be sure, that CHARNAME would never be executed. I might have missed something in the end of SoD, which would somehow explain it, but as of now it really seems rather contradictionary.
So Irenicus frames the PC for murder. Then what? How will he manage to get the PC's soul if the PC gets executed for the murder? Getting the PC's soul is what he is after, after all. Hence why he doesn't actually attack you in BG2 before he has it.
I've been thinking about that as well. He sets you up to get arrested and executed. But why would he do that, if he actually wants your soul for himself? In that case, he also must have planned your escape of the prison and thus he had to set up Imoen or the dukes as well, so he could be sure, that CHARNAME would never be executed. I might have missed something in the end of SoD, which would somehow explain it, but as of now it really seems rather contradictionary.
If Irenicus has nothing to do with the escape, the whole thing is one gigantic plot hole. If he did have something to do with the escape, the game needs to be clear on this. Did the writer even play BG2?
AFAIK there is absolutely no hint, that Irenicus might have played some role in CHARNAME's escape.
On a somewhat related note, I'd also like to mention, that I really did not like how this trial went. Especially the dialogue options for defending myself. The first thought, that crossed my mind, when I read them, was how easily my statements could be twisted around to make me look bad and actually be (ab)used by the "prosecutor". I was really reluctant to click them, because I thought, if I mention this and that, it would only backfire on me.
.The trial I had like 3 or 4 things and Belt was like duly noted is there anything else after each one. Then of course it didn't matter anyway, I shouldn't have bothered clicking each one
.The trial I had like 3 or 4 things and Belt was like duly noted is there anything else after each one. Then of course it didn't matter anyway, I shouldn't have bothered clicking each one
The number of things you can say depends heavily on what choices you make through the game. I don't know all of them, but the first time I played, I ignored the Bhaal priestess, did the poison and the explosives, and wagered Safana's soul in the Hell game. I only had my reputation to fall back on, and that wasn't enough.
So Irenicus frames the PC for murder. Then what? How will he manage to get the PC's soul if the PC gets executed for the murder? Getting the PC's soul is what he is after, after all. Hence why he doesn't actually attack you in BG2 before he has it.
I think he frames the PC knowing the PC will escape Baldur's Gate, I mean, Irenicus can't get the PC in the Ducal Palace while under the protection of the Flaming Fist, he needs to do something that makes the entire city not miss the PC one bit.
I don't understand why this would set up BG3. That is apparently going to be a completely different plot and different characters. Charname's story was wrapped up in ToB, any further adventures dealing with a murder investigation are going to be anticlimactic. If any content from SoD is to be continued, it would have to be in additional BG2 content.
I don't get why people assume that BG3 would either:
a) Have the same protagonist;
or
b) If it has a different protagonist, must have a completely unrelated plot.
Clearly, any "murder investigation" storyline would be Corwin's personal quest if she where added to SoA.
That's completely unrelated to the "find the soultaker dagger, restore Skie to life, bring about the resurrection of Irenicus" which would form the plot of BG3, which, since it uses 5th edition rules, must take place around 200 years after BG1, and hence any returning characters would have to be elves, stoned or temporally dead with preserved bodies.
Personally I don't want Skie to be a Bhaalspawn, because that makes even less sense than Imoen, plus it becomes every tenth person we meet of any importance is actually a Bhaalspawn.
The ending video of BG1 reveals that there are thousands of Bhaalspawn, and according to the Wise Alondo, they are all in the Sword Coast region. So that would be around 0.1% the population. Not every tenth person, but at least every thousandth person (more if you just consider people aged around 20).
So Irenicus frames the PC for murder. Then what? How will he manage to get the PC's soul if the PC gets executed for the murder? Getting the PC's soul is what he is after, after all. Hence why he doesn't actually attack you in BG2 before he has it.
I think he frames the PC knowing the PC will escape Baldur's Gate, I mean, Irenicus can't get the PC in the Ducal Palace while under the protection of the Flaming Fist, he needs to do something that makes the entire city not miss the PC one bit.
He could, but not without slaughtering hundreds, which would attract the attention of other very powerful individuals, such as Elminster.
High level mages are basically Nukes. They can't use their full power directly without triggering Mutually Assured Destruction, so they act subtly, and use proxies.
Comments
I do not intend to pick a fight, but it just seems to me, that since this "controversy" started, some people are trying do defend SoD against basically any criticism, because they believe the persons, who criticise some aspects of SoD, are doing it because of some hidden anomosity.
I have said repeatedly on this forum that I give SoD about a 7.5/10 and no, I'm not going to enumerate my criticisms here to justify myself to you. You can keep calling me out over what was a fairly bland point of contention with @shawne , but I've said pretty much all I have to say regarding my posting history. Maybe you should write a post about the actual topic instead?
EDIT: Better yet, I'd like to know what people think Beamdog could do to make the ending work better - heck, maybe they're even open to adding a few lines at some point.
I probably should have thrown this in earlier, in a more appropiate topic, but they have all spiraled so totally out of control...it just did not seem worth it, to try to bring in some german(N/NW-european) perspective in it, because noone would be willing to listen anyways.
This absolutely toxic atmosphere surrounding english/american politics really leaves me speechless and bitter.
To be on topic, I am still the only one to agree with the OP
I don't see the point of it.
Why would Irenicus do this? It's unnecessary. He's as powerful as he needs to be and can just go anywhere and do anything right basically.
Let's set the stage:
Charname just saved Baldur's Gate again from a villain with odd motivations. This villain has been running a righteous crusade! where she burns down towns and kills common people and is causing all kinds of death and destruction.... What. She's soooo good right? It makes no sense. Anyway, back to the thing:
Charname has just saved the day! Why do we need Skie subplot at this point? Irenicus is so powerful he can just come grab charname and everyone would be like "well I guess he's stuck in hell. I guess that sucks for him but at least he sealed the rift". He would be remembered as the guy like Jerrod who sealed the rift.
It's problematic to have Charname being the assumed killer of a Grand Duke's daughter. Charname is going to be more than famous. He's going to be infamous after this. The Hero Twice Over and the Villain of Baldur's Gate. This person is going to be a Kardashian level of fame with everyone knowing this person's name and story and description. And the icing on the cake is he's escaped prison and is loose on the streets as far as everyone knows. You can't just slide this under the rug! It's not going away!
Do you think Entar Silvershield, as mad as he is about this, is just going to be like: "Oh well he escaped. I guess that's that." No, of course he wouldn't! Entar would go and find out what happened. Maybe he'd assume Amn was involved since BG1 is all about how things are on the brink of war with Amn already. Imagine his surprise when spies later tell him that charname is wandering around the streets of Athkatla (after escaping Chateau Irenicus). I guess he does nothing at this point, right?
Anyway: killing Skie makes no sense and causes more problems than it solves as being a "kewl plot twist" which seems to be all it's there for. Am I missing something?
For the ending: the main thing I would change isn't so much the trial (though I would like to see more verbal acknowledgments of the points in Charname's defense) but the sequence during and after your escape. The abrupt cut to title screen after the narrator says "your vision fades to black" is almost as bad as the ending of BG1:EE, which feels similarly truncated. Also, I still don't buy Imoen being the one who gets the party together, especially when playing evil - not only does she not strike me as enough of a leader to pull it off, but the motivations for Minsc and Dynaheir to join over other party members isn't explained as well as it should be. I think Jaheira and Khalid should be the ones to facilitate the whole thing, but then you run into the problem of them possibly dying during the campaign since they're playable.
I tend to give Beamdog a lot of slack when it comes to the narrative setting up BG2 because there are so many constrictions with this being an interquel. But this - and probably the moment where you are discovered with Skie, could use some fleshing out. More exposition from Pepe LePew/Entar Silvershield to highlight his irrationality and power over the situation would help make a good player's imprisonment more believable as well.
I will stick with the contempt of the mob being acceptable, though. The masses tend to get that way in fantasy/fiction in general.
While I don't appreciate KampfKaninchen's tone in the above post, there has been a serious problem on this forum of certain posters shouting down and dismissing out of hand any attempt to criticize SoD. As I've said elsewhere, I understand the impulse given what happened at launch, but it's becoming exhausting to have these same arguments over and over again. SoD has some serious and blatant flaws in its writing. That is something that can be proven, and analyzed, without requiring comparisons to any other game as a way of mitigating said proof.
Which is why it is quite obviously a set-up for Baldur's Gate 3.
As for Irenicus's in game motivation, he has several:
1) weaken the PC's resistance to Bhaal's essence by making them feel rejected.
2) strip the PC of potential allies - Irenicus is not all powerful.
3) Skie is a Bhaalspawn. Trapping a tiny portion of Bhaal's essence is Irenicus's "Ace in the Hole", in the unlikely event that he should ever find himself defeated and surrounded by demons in the lower planes and Bhaal getting resurrected.
Jon Irenicus is they guy who taught Xantos how to play chess.
"He is a Bhaal spawn! A child of the god of murder! And he just *returned from hell*!
What happened to him there?! Maybe he turned to pure evil! See his eyes! The evil is lurking there! Everyone *run* for their lives!"
I can only stress that if told right, I would totally go with the "mob wants PC dead" ending. As it is, the PC lies unconscious in the same room as the murdered Skie, and Bence Duncan asks "What have you done, CHARNAME? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?". Instead of the weak tries to justify myself or to appeal to Duncan's sense of reason give me a reply option to set things right ("What to you mean, what have I done. Skie is dead, I was unconscious, the murder weapon is nowhere to be seen, or at least I don't see it. What are you accusing *me* for?")
Make then Duncan reply something along the lines of "you are Bhaalspawn, returning from hell, losing control over the evil inside you, the Dukes will decide" and the development about the PC being arrested and people believing him guilty would develop more naturally.
(This, with the suggestions from @red_codec, plus making Jaheira and Khalid being the ones gathering the rescue party and the whole ending would be more satisfying, while staying the same idea overall.)
What can Silvershield do? The Flaming Fist have no jurisdiction in Amn, and they don't answer to Silvershield anyway. He could hire Bounty Hunters - but the easiest way to track CHARNAME is to follow the trail of dead bounty hunters.
Most likely, the Flaming Fist would send in a single agent to track the escaped fugitive. Preferably someone who is a high level ranger with personal knowledge of the quarry and is extremely lethal with a bow. But Corwin is a far more reasonable person - chances are they wouldn't be too hard to convince of CHARNAME's innocence, and would probably end up joining them.
Already I can easily tell that Neera, Dorn and Rasaad are EE NPCs rather than from the original, especially in BG1. Their content is much different than that of the vanilla NPCs. And if the plot of SoD is basically getting us to where we land in Irenicus' dungeon, it will be forced to railroad the plot. Unless Beamdog is allowed to change parts of vanilla BG2 rather than just add in additional content, they have to have SoD end with the canon party being ambushed outside of the city. I think how it was done was at least better explained than the previous explanation of "these were the most popular NPCs and we're assuming the PC was good alignment."
I don't understand why this would set up BG3. That is apparently going to be a completely different plot and different characters. Charname's story was wrapped up in ToB, any further adventures dealing with a murder investigation are going to be anticlimactic. If any content from SoD is to be continued, it would have to be in additional BG2 content.
Personally I don't want Skie to be a Bhaalspawn, because that makes even less sense than Imoen, plus it becomes every tenth person we meet of any importance is actually a Bhaalspawn. And Irenicus does have backup plans, yes, but I think he's arrogant enough that he doesn't see the PC as a threat EVER. He wouldn't need an ace in the hole to deal with the PC beating him, his contingencies are if the PC decides not to follow him to Spellhold and for attacking Sundanessellar.
I guess in BG3 they could introduce the soultaker dagger as plot device to do something. Seems not worth the effort of the plot problems (Silvershield gives up looking for Charname after he "escapes" custody, you are probably one of the most famous people in the sword coast - the infamous hero x2 and villain of baldur's gate)
Grendle Bootstamps is my favorite NPC, though. I would be sad if his soul was taken
When I gave a list of plot points from the previous games, I wasn't trying to say that those were necessarily flaws - without a lot of them, BG2 wouldn't have been able to sustain its narrative. When you have a crpg as big and complex as the BG series, you're going to have moments like those by necessity. I think part of the reason that we're not on the same page is that I'm defending the denial of player agency while you're more critical of the plot itself - my post earlier was more in response to comments re: the narrative being "forced" or railroaded, which I don't necessarily see as a problem.
As for standards of quality, we'll have to agree to disagree - we should expect high standards of writing, but a game that adheres to modern crpg conventions in an attempt to avoid ever forcing its narrative might not feel like Baldur's Gate. In terms of player agency alone, I think SoD's ending fits well within the parameters of the series.
And yes, I do agree that there are areas where the narrative could be improved (mainly in the 3rd act) - but SoD is by no means the low point in a series that contains Throne of Bhaal imo.
PS: After the time of troubles Midnight took the name Mystra.
I might have missed something in the end of SoD, which would somehow explain it, but as of now it really seems rather contradictionary.
On a somewhat related note, I'd also like to mention, that I really did not like how this trial went. Especially the dialogue options for defending myself. The first thought, that crossed my mind, when I read them, was how easily my statements could be twisted around to make me look bad and actually be (ab)used by the "prosecutor".
I was really reluctant to click them, because I thought, if I mention this and that, it would only backfire on me.
Railroading in rpgs is never a good thing. Options, choices and some different outcomes are great.
a) Have the same protagonist;
or
b) If it has a different protagonist, must have a completely unrelated plot.
Clearly, any "murder investigation" storyline would be Corwin's personal quest if she where added to SoA.
That's completely unrelated to the "find the soultaker dagger, restore Skie to life, bring about the resurrection of Irenicus" which would form the plot of BG3, which, since it uses 5th edition rules, must take place around 200 years after BG1, and hence any returning characters would have to be elves, stoned or temporally dead with preserved bodies.
The ending video of BG1 reveals that there are thousands of Bhaalspawn, and according to the Wise Alondo, they are all in the Sword Coast region. So that would be around 0.1% the population. Not every tenth person, but at least every thousandth person (more if you just consider people aged around 20).
High level mages are basically Nukes. They can't use their full power directly without triggering Mutually Assured Destruction, so they act subtly, and use proxies.
And if CHARNAME failed, then he/she wasn't powerful enough for Irenicus's purposes anyway.