And if CHARNAME failed, then he/she wasn't powerful enough for Irenicus's purposes anyway.
Except that the whole reason he sets you up in the first place is because at that point he already knows you're what he's after. What doesn't make sense is that he's then willing to risk his prize in a public trial that could easily have resulted in your execution.
.The trial I had like 3 or 4 things and Belt was like duly noted is there anything else after each one. Then of course it didn't matter anyway, I shouldn't have bothered clicking each one
If you don't click through the defending lines you'll get the evil assassin ending, no matter whether your PC is a paladin with 20 rep and solved all quests in a good manner (including not poisoning the food storage). And that ending doesn't make any sense at all.
And if CHARNAME failed, then he/she wasn't powerful enough for Irenicus's purposes anyway.
Except that the whole reason he sets you up in the first place is because at that point he already knows you're what he's after. What doesn't make sense is that he's then willing to risk his prize in a public trial that could easily have resulted in your execution.
Err, no, he doesn't. He believes that out of CHARNAME and Calaer CHARNAME is the stronger candidate, but Bhaal's essence still isn't strong enough for his purposes. That's why he is constantly testing and pushing the Bhaalspawn to embrace thier heritage.
So, in the unlikely event that CHARNAME chooses to be executed (and it would have to be a deliberate choice, as demonstated in the dreams the Bhaalspawn could simply blast thier captors into small meaty chunks if they wished), then he would simply have to go and find another Bhaalspawn (and there are thousands to choose from).
The trick to executing a successful Xantos gambit is to make every possible outcome part of your master plan.
.The trial I had like 3 or 4 things and Belt was like duly noted is there anything else after each one. Then of course it didn't matter anyway, I shouldn't have bothered clicking each one
If you don't click through the defending lines you'll get the evil assassin ending, no matter whether your PC is a paladin with 20 rep and solved all quests in a good manner (including not poisoning the food storage). And that ending doesn't make any sense at all.
Haven't tried it, but doesn't "not clicking through the defending lines" not make any sense at all, especially if you are a rep 20 paladin? You refuse to say anything in your defence and people conclude that you are an evil assassin - seems perfectly fine to me.
You refuse to say anything in your defence and people conclude that you are an evil assassin - seems perfectly fine to me.
But a PC talking endlessly about his oh so very good deeds is suspicious because he seems like someone trying to distract from possible evil doings. It's a matter of perception.
You refuse to say anything in your defence and people conclude that you are an evil assassin - seems perfectly fine to me.
But a PC talking endlessly about his oh so very good deeds is suspicious because he seems like someone trying to distract from possible evil doings. It's a matter of perception.
and the perception of someone who refuses to say anything when accused of murder is that they are guilty.
The trick to executing a successful Xantos gambit is to make every possible outcome part of your master plan.
Yes, that is the definition of a successful Xanatos Gambit. And it's not what happens here. CHARNAME getting executed means that any progress on Irenicus' part would be effectively reset; he'd have to start all over, having lost out on both Caelar and CHARNAME. That's a net loss scenario David Xanatos would never have allowed.
Now, it would have been a Xanatos Gambit if it had turned out that Irenicus had arranged the jailbreak, because that would mean he was in control of every possible outcome of the frame job. But again, that's not what happens here.
But losing a candidate who was too weak anyway is a positive outcome.
Yes, it's a setback, but it's less of a setback had Irenicus's plans progressed as far Spellhold before descovering the Bhaal Essence wasn't strong enough.
But we are talking about massive improbabilities here! Do you really think there was any serious chance that CHARNAME wouldn't escape?!!
Irenicus didn't plan the jailbreak because he didn't NEED to plan the jailbreak. All these people need to do is give a little nudge and let events take thier course.
and the perception of someone who refuses to say anything when accused of murder is that they are guilty.
It's my (naive) expectation that such a serious matter is not decided by the personal impression the PC is making upon trial, but by judging the evidences, and regardless of whether the PC lists them or not (as Duke Belt states, evidence is already collected - but only gets considered when the PC also points it out? - this is weak. ...My 2c.)
and the perception of someone who refuses to say anything when accused of murder is that they are guilty.
It's my (naive) expectation that such a serious matter is not decided by the personal impression the PC is making upon trial, but by judging the evidences, and regardless of whether the PC lists them or not (as Duke Belt states, evidence is already collected - but only gets considered when the PC also points it out? - this is weak. ...My 2c.)
Rofl
I think this justice system only exists in Cloud-Cuckoo Land!
But losing a candidate who was too weak anyway is a positive outcome.
Not really, since it would mean he went to all the effort of pitting CHARNAME against Caelar for nothing. If you're going to invoke Xanatos, you need to remember that he and characters who fit his mold don't waste time and energy on futile efforts. They also try not to leave things to chance, as you seem to be suggesting re: the jailbreak.
And considering he knew enough about Imoen to take her to Spellhold in the first place, the question of "who's strongest" clearly wasn't the only factor in play here.
But losing a candidate who was too weak anyway is a positive outcome.
Not really, since it would mean he went to all the effort of pitting CHARNAME against Caelar for nothing. If you're going to invoke Xanatos, you need to remember that he and characters who fit his mold don't waste time and energy on futile efforts.
And considering he knew enough about Imoen to take her to Spellhold in the first place, the question of "who's strongest" clearly wasn't the only factor in play here.
The whole point is there is no way for Irenicus to know if either candidate was any use until he had tested them. That's why he is always talking about "experiments". And he keeps other potential candidates (Imoen, Skie) on the back burner all along.
The effort of doing an experiment that fails is never futile, since it leaves you with increased knowledge.
AFAIK there is absolutely no hint, that Irenicus might have played some role in CHARNAME's escape.
There was no need for him to do anything. He knew escape was easily within CHARNAME's power.
And if CHARNAME failed, then he/she wasn't powerful enough for Irenicus's purposes anyway.
No he didn't. There was even a risk of the PC being executed on the spot. And there is no mention of the PC having to "be at a certain level" for Irenicus plan to work. He needs the soul. Nothing more.
AFAIK there is absolutely no hint, that Irenicus might have played some role in CHARNAME's escape.
There was no need for him to do anything. He knew escape was easily within CHARNAME's power.
And if CHARNAME failed, then he/she wasn't powerful enough for Irenicus's purposes anyway.
No he didn't. There was even a risk of the PC being executed on the spot. And there is no mention of the PC having to "be at a certain level" for Irenicus plan to work. He needs the soul. Nothing more.
Really?!!! Because I would expect an executioners blade to bounce off my Stoneskin, just before they exploded into small pieces. Even by the end of SoD the PC has grown so powerful that it would be very difficult for anyone in Baldur's Gate to harm them.
And it is very clearly established that Irenicus doesn't "just need the soul". Even before the dream sequences of Irenicus telling you to embrace Bhaal's power it was made clear in SoA. That is why Irenicus has his agents (Bhodi and Yoshimo) encourage you to run around doing quests in Chapter 2 of SoA.
And it is very clearly established that Irenicus doesn't "just need the soul". Even before the dream sequences of Irenicus telling you to embrace Bhaal's power it was made clear in SoA. That is why Irenicus has his agents (Bhodi and Yoshimo) encourage you to run around doing quests in Chapter 2 of SoA.
And it is very clearly established that Irenicus doesn't "just need the soul". Even before the dream sequences of Irenicus telling you to embrace Bhaal's power it was made clear in SoA. That is why Irenicus has his agents (Bhodi and Yoshimo) encourage you to run around doing quests in Chapter 2 of SoA.
And yet none of that was required for Imoen.
Irenicus didn't use Imoen's soul on himself, he used it on Bohdi, which was itself just another experiment.
I don't understand why this would set up BG3. That is apparently going to be a completely different plot and different characters. Charname's story was wrapped up in ToB, any further adventures dealing with a murder investigation are going to be anticlimactic. If any content from SoD is to be continued, it would have to be in additional BG2 content.
I don't get why people assume that BG3 would either:
a) Have the same protagonist;
or
b) If it has a different protagonist, must have a completely unrelated plot.
Clearly, any "murder investigation" storyline would be Corwin's personal quest if she where added to SoA.
That's completely unrelated to the "find the soultaker dagger, restore Skie to life, bring about the resurrection of Irenicus" which would form the plot of BG3, which, since it uses 5th edition rules, must take place around 200 years after BG1, and hence any returning characters would have to be elves, stoned or temporally dead with preserved bodies.
Personally I don't want Skie to be a Bhaalspawn, because that makes even less sense than Imoen, plus it becomes every tenth person we meet of any importance is actually a Bhaalspawn.
The ending video of BG1 reveals that there are thousands of Bhaalspawn, and according to the Wise Alondo, they are all in the Sword Coast region. So that would be around 0.1% the population. Not every tenth person, but at least every thousandth person (more if you just consider people aged around 20).
Well, if any unresolved content from SoD is going to occur, especially about Skie and the soultaker dagger, I would think it would have to be with Charname as the PC, otherwise what's the point? If the murder plot was resolved in BG3 with a new protagonist and setting, where is the relevance? It's some random PC who had no connection to the events of SoD and wouldn't care about clearing Charname's reputation.
And if it's a new PC, why would we want a related plot? BG's plot was about the Bhaalspawn prophecies and our role in them. That has definitively been ended with ToB. There's not much left to add, especially since the epilogues pretty much gave a quick summary of how the PC's life continued from there.
I really would not want Irenicus to return as a villain 200 years later. It would feel like rehashing the story instead of creating a completely new plot. Don't let's rely on the BG plot to create a whole new game, let's have new antagonists, new PCs, new story.
And if CHARNAME failed, then he/she wasn't powerful enough for Irenicus's purposes anyway.
Except that the whole reason he sets you up in the first place is because at that point he already knows you're what he's after. What doesn't make sense is that he's then willing to risk his prize in a public trial that could easily have resulted in your execution.
We can't know what would happen if Imoen/Belt hadn't set us free, but I can headcanon that if we weren't freed from prison, Irenicus would have taken us before execution. I think the whole Skie murder scenario was another of his tests, to see how we would react and what we would do. And when he visits us in prison, he learns about our mental fortitude and that we're resisting his efforts. He is still monitoring our progress and should easily be able to pluck us from the scaffold if it came to that.
It's not about resolving the murder plot. The murder plot is an irrelevance. We know "who done it" and no one else really cares (apart from Corwin, if there is enough demand for her to appear in SoA). It doesn't matter how many times Spiderman saves J. Jonah Jameson's life, the Daily Bugle will still claim that he is a dangerous criminal.
The whole point is to set up a classic "sleeping beauty" scenario, with Skie's body preserved in a crystal casket waiting to be resurrected when the soultaker dagger is found, at some point in the distant future.
You might think that there is no point in linking to past events if you have a different protagonist, but the whole of the MCU and Star Wars begs to differ.
And Villains? If you think any villain ever stays dead, you have never read a comic or watched TV!
And stories? Given that there are only seven plots, and a couple of those are irrelevant to the genre, recycling is inevitable.
I gave a ton of ''dark'' justifications for my evil character for why it wouldn't make sense for me to have killed Skie and I got freed. I actually didn't like that outcome though... as the responses I gave well.. One of them I presume was specific to Blackguards ''I willingly serve the forces of darkness blahblahblah'' No way in hell would I ever convince anyone with that kind of defense. Everything felt unpolished imo.
I mean I sort of understand what they were trying to do, but eh....Not the best presentation and the entire trial and post Skie events could have used like I don't know 30-60 mins more content..?
I'm pretty sure a Blackguard PC wouldn't care about the outcome of the trial, they would just be contemplating whether to kill everyone now, or wait until they where a god first...
The whole point is to set up a classic "sleeping beauty" scenario, with Skie's body preserved in a crystal casket waiting to be resurrected when the soultaker dagger is found, at some point in the distant future.
Skie isn't that important or memorable a character to justify a return to the narrative. Besides, WotC have already played that card with Minsc. To do so again with an even less relevant character is unnecessarily repetitive. (And no, pointing out the "inevitability" of repetition does not justify it.)
That aside, you're taking as fact that Beamdog is going to produce BG3 - something that has not been confirmed by anyone in an official capacity.
We can't know what would happen if Imoen/Belt hadn't set us free, but I can headcanon that if we weren't freed from prison, Irenicus would have taken us before execution. I think the whole Skie murder scenario was another of his tests, to see how we would react and what we would do. And when he visits us in prison, he learns about our mental fortitude and that we're resisting his efforts. He is still monitoring our progress and should easily be able to pluck us from the scaffold if it came to that.
Given the lengths he went to in order to keep his involvement secret, why risk exposing himself by openly snatching away the main suspect in a high-profile murder? Why would he even allow for such a possibility? That would only put more people on Irenicus' trail.
Again, the problem here is more to do with how the scenario was executed, rather than why. The writers needed SoD to lead into the opening of BG2; their chosen method was to put Irenicus into the plot, which is fine (and getting David Warner back was a coup that could've only been matched if Tony Jay were still alive to voice Belhifet again).
But as has been suggested elsewhere, the slightest scrutiny reveals plotholes of the sort that can only be resolved through railroading - which is, I think, the key difference between the original games and the EEs. The player's inability to save Xzar or Yoshimo or Ajantis, or the inability to call Melissan out on her BS, isn't used as a way to cover up gaps in the story logic. That's a particular skill Beamdog simply hasn't mastered yet, and it's going to continue to create threads like these.
I'm pretty sure a Blackguard PC wouldn't care about the outcome of the trial, they would just be contemplating whether to kill everyone now, or wait until they where a god first...
I just meant to give that as an example of specific class/kit dialogues the game gives you. I presume there are similar options for other classes or kits.
The other justifications were linked to reputation and other things throughout the game, but considering what they made my PC look like, I don't think they should have worked in my favor.
The whole point is to set up a classic "sleeping beauty" scenario, with Skie's body preserved in a crystal casket waiting to be resurrected when the soultaker dagger is found, at some point in the distant future.
Skie isn't that important or memorable a character to justify a return to the narrative. Besides, WotC have already played that card with Minsc. To do so again with an even less relevant character is unnecessarily repetitive. (And no, pointing out the "inevitability" of repetition does not justify it.)
That aside, you're taking as fact that Beamdog is going to produce BG3 - something that has not been confirmed by anyone in an official capacity.
We can't know what would happen if Imoen/Belt hadn't set us free, but I can headcanon that if we weren't freed from prison, Irenicus would have taken us before execution. I think the whole Skie murder scenario was another of his tests, to see how we would react and what we would do. And when he visits us in prison, he learns about our mental fortitude and that we're resisting his efforts. He is still monitoring our progress and should easily be able to pluck us from the scaffold if it came to that.
Given the lengths he went to in order to keep his involvement secret, why risk exposing himself by openly snatching away the main suspect in a high-profile murder? Why would he even allow for such a possibility? That would only put more people on Irenicus' trail.
Again, the problem here is more to do with how the scenario was executed, rather than why. The writers needed SoD to lead into the opening of BG2; their chosen method was to put Irenicus into the plot, which is fine (and getting David Warner back was a coup that could've only been matched if Tony Jay were still alive to voice Belhifet again).
But as has been suggested elsewhere, the slightest scrutiny reveals plotholes of the sort that can only be resolved through railroading - which is, I think, the key difference between the original games and the EEs. The player's inability to save Xzar or Yoshimo or Ajantis, or the inability to call Melissan out on her BS, isn't used as a way to cover up gaps in the story logic. That's a particular skill Beamdog simply hasn't mastered yet, and it's going to continue to create threads like these.
Eh, Irenicus was able to freely walk around the Crusaders, face off with Caelar and Heph, and was present with the Flaming Fist when they find us over Skie's dead body (check the cutscene, he's in the back behind Duncan). Since no one was that bothered about asking the strange hooded man who he was and why he was past the security checkpoint thankyouverymuch, is is that much further to say a hooded wizard could teleport into the jail and nab Charname before the Flaming Fist could take us to the gallows? People would just assume the evil Bhaalspawn had one of his mage minions teleport him out at the last minute. Maybe some Bhaal priest. He wouldn't need to reveal himself by freeing us. And even if he did, not many outside of Suldanessellar have heard of Joneleth.
The whole point is to set up a classic "sleeping beauty" scenario, with Skie's body preserved in a crystal casket waiting to be resurrected when the soultaker dagger is found, at some point in the distant future.
Skie isn't that important or memorable a character to justify a return to the narrative.
Niether was Safina.
Anyway, chances are she would return as the last surviving Bhaalspawn, as well as the heir to an important ruling house. What she was previously doesn't matter.
Besides, WotC have already played that card with Minsc. To do so again with an even less relevant character is unnecessarily repetitive. (And no, pointing out the "inevitability" of repetition does not justify it.)
Abdel isn't part of the CRPG continuity (which is different from the official FR continuity), so that comic never happened.
That aside, you're taking as fact that Beamdog is going to produce BG3 - something that has not been confirmed by anyone in an official capacity.
It's a fact that Beamdog are planning on doing it. It may not happen, but SoD is still planned as the set-up.
I'm pretty sure a Blackguard PC wouldn't care about the outcome of the trial, they would just be contemplating whether to kill everyone now, or wait until they where a god first...
That would depend on the alignment. A Lawful Evil blackguard would certainly care.
And if CHARNAME failed, then he/she wasn't powerful enough for Irenicus's purposes anyway.
Except that the whole reason he sets you up in the first place is because at that point he already knows you're what he's after. What doesn't make sense is that he's then willing to risk his prize in a public trial that could easily have resulted in your execution.
We can't know what would happen if Imoen/Belt hadn't set us free, but I can headcanon that if we weren't freed from prison, Irenicus would have taken us before execution. I think the whole Skie murder scenario was another of his tests, to see how we would react and what we would do. And when he visits us in prison, he learns about our mental fortitude and that we're resisting his efforts. He is still monitoring our progress and should easily be able to pluck us from the scaffold if it came to that.
He needed allies to capture you before BG2. The intro explains this. Powerful he is, but he can't capture a whole party alone.
Comments
So, in the unlikely event that CHARNAME chooses to be executed (and it would have to be a deliberate choice, as demonstated in the dreams the Bhaalspawn could simply blast thier captors into small meaty chunks if they wished), then he would simply have to go and find another Bhaalspawn (and there are thousands to choose from).
The trick to executing a successful Xantos gambit is to make every possible outcome part of your master plan.
Now, it would have been a Xanatos Gambit if it had turned out that Irenicus had arranged the jailbreak, because that would mean he was in control of every possible outcome of the frame job. But again, that's not what happens here.
Yes, it's a setback, but it's less of a setback had Irenicus's plans progressed as far Spellhold before descovering the Bhaal Essence wasn't strong enough.
But we are talking about massive improbabilities here! Do you really think there was any serious chance that CHARNAME wouldn't escape?!!
Irenicus didn't plan the jailbreak because he didn't NEED to plan the jailbreak. All these people need to do is give a little nudge and let events take thier course.
Elminster does exactly the same thing in BG1.
I think this justice system only exists in Cloud-Cuckoo Land!
And considering he knew enough about Imoen to take her to Spellhold in the first place, the question of "who's strongest" clearly wasn't the only factor in play here.
The effort of doing an experiment that fails is never futile, since it leaves you with increased knowledge.
And it is very clearly established that Irenicus doesn't "just need the soul". Even before the dream sequences of Irenicus telling you to embrace Bhaal's power it was made clear in SoA. That is why Irenicus has his agents (Bhodi and Yoshimo) encourage you to run around doing quests in Chapter 2 of SoA.
And if it's a new PC, why would we want a related plot? BG's plot was about the Bhaalspawn prophecies and our role in them. That has definitively been ended with ToB. There's not much left to add, especially since the epilogues pretty much gave a quick summary of how the PC's life continued from there.
I really would not want Irenicus to return as a villain 200 years later. It would feel like rehashing the story instead of creating a completely new plot. Don't let's rely on the BG plot to create a whole new game, let's have new antagonists, new PCs, new story.
The whole point is to set up a classic "sleeping beauty" scenario, with Skie's body preserved in a crystal casket waiting to be resurrected when the soultaker dagger is found, at some point in the distant future.
You might think that there is no point in linking to past events if you have a different protagonist, but the whole of the MCU and Star Wars begs to differ.
And Villains? If you think any villain ever stays dead, you have never read a comic or watched TV!
And stories? Given that there are only seven plots, and a couple of those are irrelevant to the genre, recycling is inevitable.
I mean I sort of understand what they were trying to do, but eh....Not the best presentation and the entire trial and post Skie events could have used like I don't know 30-60 mins more content..?
That aside, you're taking as fact that Beamdog is going to produce BG3 - something that has not been confirmed by anyone in an official capacity. Given the lengths he went to in order to keep his involvement secret, why risk exposing himself by openly snatching away the main suspect in a high-profile murder? Why would he even allow for such a possibility? That would only put more people on Irenicus' trail.
Again, the problem here is more to do with how the scenario was executed, rather than why. The writers needed SoD to lead into the opening of BG2; their chosen method was to put Irenicus into the plot, which is fine (and getting David Warner back was a coup that could've only been matched if Tony Jay were still alive to voice Belhifet again).
But as has been suggested elsewhere, the slightest scrutiny reveals plotholes of the sort that can only be resolved through railroading - which is, I think, the key difference between the original games and the EEs. The player's inability to save Xzar or Yoshimo or Ajantis, or the inability to call Melissan out on her BS, isn't used as a way to cover up gaps in the story logic. That's a particular skill Beamdog simply hasn't mastered yet, and it's going to continue to create threads like these.
The other justifications were linked to reputation and other things throughout the game, but considering what they made my PC look like, I don't think they should have worked in my favor.
Anyway, chances are she would return as the last surviving Bhaalspawn, as well as the heir to an important ruling house. What she was previously doesn't matter. Abdel isn't part of the CRPG continuity (which is different from the official FR continuity), so that comic never happened. It's a fact that Beamdog are planning on doing it. It may not happen, but SoD is still planned as the set-up.
I doubt SoD is a set up to BG3, which will be using 5th edition, and therefore can only take place several hundred years after BG2.