Yeah, it's sad but true. Calmyr tried a lot to get some discussion started, be it in detail about Skie or more generally if SoD "delivered" as an BG expansion. More sooner than later though those topics have been driven into a direction, where he and other people were put into a corner and have been treated how my good chum joluv said it here:
many of the people mentioned in the article are garbage.
Way to go. Garbage needs to be disposed of. Let's see if we can get the ovens in Ausschwitz burning again?
@joluv is calling garbage people doing such things as: - Send death threats and harassing messages to Amber Scott. - Pile abuse on transgenders, both online and in real life to the point of driving a transgender dev to suicide. - State that women ruin video games. - State that transgenders should be either in prison or in mental institutions.
These are the kind of people this article is talking about. Do you really believe that comparing them to the victims of the holocaust is, in any way, a reasonable thing to do? I mean okay, "garbage" might be a little mean.
Anyways, Godwin's Law is here, time to flee the thread!
You think I'm joking? Calling other people garbage is a little mean? It's not the first time, where he and other people behaved like that; I am not only talking about this cracked article.
Yeah Godwins law; it's not me who invoked it. Maybe you should educate yourself what defines a totalitarian mindset and what consequences it has in real life. You think you're better than someone else? That's the seed.
Yes, I do think I'm better than people who encourage a transwoman to commit suicide, then celebrate their success with jokes about having sex with her dead body. I hope we are all better than that.
Anyone who is sexist, racist, anti-semitic...pretty much anyone who holds hate towards an entire group of people and who speaks out publicly against them for simply existing...those people are garbage.
Is that rude? You know what, I don't care. If you hate someone else merely because of who they are, and go out and publicly harass those people, then I call you garbage.
Yeah, facing angry people with anger doesn't help, no matter how right you think you are. Insulting someone makes them angry. Insulting someone makes them double down on their beliefs. Insulting a side makes some moderate people sympathetic to that side.
The problem is that everyone has their own idea of what qualifies as an insult.
For many people the mere inclusion of Mizhena was an insult. For many people the mere existence of transgender is an insult.
They felt insulted. They got angry. They doubled down on their beliefs. And as this thread shows, there are quite some who have become sympathetic to them.
Maybe I'm unusual, but I find I am very often sympathetic toward people whose views I don't agree with. I can see other people's side of the argument easily, but even when I can't, if I see some skewed or one sided argument towards that person or group of people, I would naturally tend to want to take the opposite side to try to expose this.
They felt insulted. They got angry. They doubled down on their beliefs.
Which I absolutely agree with, I still wanted to point out that they were not the only side in the argument to do this.
I think there is something intellectually dishonest about using the worst examples of people and arguments from the other side to you to create a false impression of the other sides actions.
You can go to youtube and find similar, but more extreme, videos like this article, consisting of 10 mins worth of footage showing awful, violent islamic terrorist attacks, or vile police brutality on black people, or [insert injustice of choice here] Watching these videos will make you disgusted, and angry, and you will feel hatred towards the perpatrators. And that is exactly what they are designed to do. They are created and posted onto youtube by groups or political organisations who want you to feel hatred towards these people.
I don't want to get into specific politics in this discussion, but recent world events have countless examples of people who have taken a (perhaps justified) grievance towards a group of people as a way to spread hatred
If this article had used a similar list to target the other side, I would be writing these same comments in reverse You might think you are only targeting people who deserve it because of their own awful behavior, but "people who deserve it" tends to grow in number as the argument becomes more entrenched and bitter
TL;DR Article focuses on attacking an d sensationalising "Gamers who went insane" rather than defending this example (or the general principle of) including trans characters in a game
Well, I hope you do not mind that you just declared all roman-catholic christians as garbage, because just recently the pope(s) declared Transsexuality is a sin towards god's creation. Nevermind, it's god's own country :P
@KampfKaninchen Sigh, okay you went there. I'm a Christian, and yes, the Bible says transexuality (sp?) is a sin. You know what else is considered sin? Lying, hating a group a of people because they simply are. Are we (Christians) supposed to tell anyone who lied ever in their life that they should die and beat them down and berate until they kill themselves and rejoice when this happens? Hell no! We are called above all else to love others. The definition of sin is very broad and surprise, everyone falls under that in some way. No one should be shown hate like what happened because of one line said by a minor side character, in a game that takes place in a world where magic belts that change your gender are a thing. This behaviour is inexcusable, but you are going to try and defend it anyway, then defend it, but stop trying to deflect people's arguments to other groups. You are fooling no one.
You know the most funny thing about this forum is, that the understanding of native english speakers is way worse than of those who are not. I do not care about religion, I'm just making fun of god's own country.
But here is the quote: Reflecting on the idea of gender identity freedom that is being promulgated across the globe, the 79-year-old pontiff termed such approach an “annihilation of man as an image of God.”
“Speaking with Pope Benedict, who is well, and has a clear mind, he was telling me: 'Holiness, this is the epoch of sin against God the Creator.’ He's intelligent! God created man and woman, God created the world this way, this way, this way, and we are doing the opposite,” Francis told the Polish bishops. “We must think about what Pope Benedict said – ‘It's the epoch of sin against God the Creator.’”
And then you guys are freaking out. You teach the bible creation story in some of your states as equal to Darwins theory. You are then surprised to get backlash from the bible belt? Your problems run much deeper than transgender/homosexual hate on the surface.
@KampfKaninchen This discussion is about the article and people's reaction to it. You realized that no one here supports your defense of the people presented in the article, so you are trying to deflect the issue somewhere in a sad attempt to tear them down so that you can somehow save face. No one is fooled by it and you clearly have no interest in listening to any perspective other than your own. So I say good day Sir/Madam, I will waste no more effort on you.
What a pity. I didn't even realise I supported those guys quoted there. But thanks for supporting my claim, that the understanding of native english speakers is way worse than of those who are not. I'd "really" like to know, what exactly my perspective is.
But do not worry too much, I've already requested an account wipe, it will propably only be some hours you will have to endure me. And FWIW I myself can only endure the presence of proto-fascists for so long.
Dunno if anybody mentioned this here yet (I am too lazy to read the entire topic), but what I find pretty baffling is that apparently non of the people involved expected this to happen?
Female game designers are a popular target. Especially after the whole Sarkeesian debacle that should be very common knowledge. There where a lot of negative reactions to Hexxat already, the quality of the content related to her just being a side note. Transgenderism is a huuuuge topic currently. People have very strong opinions about it and just as many people are being assholes about it.
I mean, let's not forget that it wasn't just bigots and trolls loosing their proverbial shit over the topic. There where a not too small number of actual transgender people really pissed about it too, simply because - and I quote - it "painted a giant target sign on transgender people's backs".
What Amber had to (and probably still has to) deal with is f***ing unforgivable. But I really don't find it that suprising.
The internet is a place full of assholes. Hell, the world is.
Either way, I applaud Amber and the team for their bravery and their willingness to take this step into the right direction. I don't think the entire situation was handled particularly well, but at the very least we can hope that everyone learned something from it
And hey, it certainly drew the people on the internet into looking at the topic of transgenderism, so that is a win in my book. Education starts with interest.
PS: Well, I guess it would have been hard to expect this to blow this strongly out of proportion ... still though.
You know, for a moment I thought that said that female gamers were a popular target--in the sense that game companies are trying to appeal more to them.
I think perhaps an account wipe may be a touch extreme, along with the sentiment of "proto-fascists".
As a opinionated fence sitter I reckon I can emphasize and for the most part agree with your perspective which I take to be:
Calling people garbage is bad.
My personal view is that the "outrage" culture is not limited to transphobic and homophic gamers but is rather a larger issue that affects everyone.
In my opinion the Cracked article whilst condemning "outrage culture" becomes a part of it, to me this is evident in the three examples of "outrage" it provides:
By stating in unoquivical terms that the PoE limerick was transphobic and then goes on with morale indignation at the fact that people got outraged when it was removed;
The article states that the Overwatch fiasco "was treated like the greatest act of censorship since the Library of Alexandria was sacked." and then shows comments that to me in "internet speak" suggest mild indignation; and finally
It explicitly states that a Nintendo employee was fired because she was harassed and then links an article that says otherwise.
Ultimately websites like Cracked (and the GGer equivalents) are getting hits and making money by preaching a one-dimensional view of the world to it's readers who are pre-disposed/entrenched in their views and are happy to take "journalism" that agrees with them at face value.
Sadly all this serves to do is propogate hatred and detract from honest discussion, such is the way of capitalism driven mass media.
At this point I feel it is probably necessary to state that I don't condone any of the heinous posts, nor do i revel in another human beings misery.
Ultimately websites like Cracked (and the GGer equivalents) are getting hits and making money by preaching a one-dimensional view of the world to it's readers who are pre-disposed/entrenched in their views and are happy to take "journalism" that agrees with them at face value.
This sums up my view of the article very well. The drama wasn't black and white. There where not just two sides to this "argument".
This topic is clearly very personal to a lot of people. I will say this once more, and then I'm closing the thread. I'm going to put it in a spoiler button, because this is not friendly territory, and some of you may not want to read it.
I'll put it a little more bluntly: this next bit comes with a trigger warning.
If you have a problem with our games, that's okay. If you don't like the bugs or the writing or the changes to the UI, that's okay. If you have a problem with trans characters being included, that's okay too; not everyone is there yet, not even the Pope. Not everyone will ever be there.
Cracked is a comedy site. They specialize in hyperbole and satire. Their writers are traditionally very progressive. A while back they had a piece about going to an orgy--and it was pretty tame, all things considered.
The article at the top of this thread is describing a stream of hateful abuse. The article is not saying that everyone with criticisms of the game is hateful or abusive; the article is pointing to specific examples of abuse, and calling it what it is. Because Cracked is a site that specializes in hyperbole and satire, they naturally draw conclusions about the people they're describing.
If you disagree with those conclusions, okay. But let's be clear: describing someone as "garbage" is not in the same galaxy as telling someone explicitly, repeatedly, that they should kill themselves, that you are going to rape them, that you are going to kill them, that you hope they get cancer, that you want to put a nail gun to the back of their head and pull the trigger. It is not the same universe as publicly celebrating when the target of your abuse kills themselves because of it.
None of those things are positive ways to interact with people--in life or on the web. But there is a difference between them. And while calling someone "garbage" is an insult, the rest of those things are violence committed in written form. If you're saying them, you're in the wrong, and people have a right to say so.
Comments
- Send death threats and harassing messages to Amber Scott.
- Pile abuse on transgenders, both online and in real life to the point of driving a transgender dev to suicide.
- State that women ruin video games.
- State that transgenders should be either in prison or in mental institutions.
These are the kind of people this article is talking about. Do you really believe that comparing them to the victims of the holocaust is, in any way, a reasonable thing to do? I mean okay, "garbage" might be a little mean.
Anyways, Godwin's Law is here, time to flee the thread!
Yeah Godwins law; it's not me who invoked it. Maybe you should educate yourself what defines a totalitarian mindset and what consequences it has in real life. You think you're better than someone else? That's the seed.
Is that rude? You know what, I don't care. If you hate someone else merely because of who they are, and go out and publicly harass those people, then I call you garbage.
I can see other people's side of the argument easily, but even when I can't, if I see some skewed or one sided argument towards that person or group of people, I would naturally tend to want to take the opposite side to try to expose this.
For Example, when I read I immediately wanted to point out that in the very same article, the writer takes the mere inclusion of a dirty limerick in PoE as an insult.
and when I read Which I absolutely agree with, I still wanted to point out that they were not the only side in the argument to do this.
I think there is something intellectually dishonest about using the worst examples of people and arguments from the other side to you to create a false impression of the other sides actions.
You can go to youtube and find similar, but more extreme, videos like this article, consisting of 10 mins worth of footage showing awful, violent islamic terrorist attacks, or vile police brutality on black people, or [insert injustice of choice here]
Watching these videos will make you disgusted, and angry, and you will feel hatred towards the perpatrators. And that is exactly what they are designed to do. They are created and posted onto youtube by groups or political organisations who want you to feel hatred towards these people.
I don't want to get into specific politics in this discussion, but recent world events have countless examples of people who have taken a (perhaps justified) grievance towards a group of people as a way to spread hatred
If this article had used a similar list to target the other side, I would be writing these same comments in reverse
You might think you are only targeting people who deserve it because of their own awful behavior, but "people who deserve it" tends to grow in number as the argument becomes more entrenched and bitter
TL;DR
Article focuses on attacking an d sensationalising "Gamers who went insane" rather than defending this example (or the general principle of) including trans characters in a game
Nevermind, it's god's own country :P
We are called above all else to love others. The definition of sin is very broad and surprise, everyone falls under that in some way. No one should be shown hate like what happened because of one line said by a minor side character, in a game that takes place in a world where magic belts that change your gender are a thing. This behaviour is inexcusable, but you are going to try and defend it anyway, then defend it, but stop trying to deflect people's arguments to other groups. You are fooling no one.
But here is the quote:
Reflecting on the idea of gender identity freedom that is being promulgated across the globe, the 79-year-old pontiff termed such approach an “annihilation of man as an image of God.”
“Speaking with Pope Benedict, who is well, and has a clear mind, he was telling me: 'Holiness, this is the epoch of sin against God the Creator.’ He's intelligent! God created man and woman, God created the world this way, this way, this way, and we are doing the opposite,” Francis told the Polish bishops. “We must think about what Pope Benedict said – ‘It's the epoch of sin against God the Creator.’”
And then you guys are freaking out. You teach the bible creation story in some of your states as equal to Darwins theory. You are then surprised to get backlash from the bible belt? Your problems run much deeper than transgender/homosexual hate on the surface.
I'd "really" like to know, what exactly my perspective is.
But do not worry too much, I've already requested an account wipe, it will propably only be some hours you will have to endure me. And FWIW I myself can only endure the presence of proto-fascists for so long.
Female game designers are a popular target. Especially after the whole Sarkeesian debacle that should be very common knowledge. There where a lot of negative reactions to Hexxat already, the quality of the content related to her just being a side note. Transgenderism is a huuuuge topic currently. People have very strong opinions about it and just as many people are being assholes about it.
I mean, let's not forget that it wasn't just bigots and trolls loosing their proverbial shit over the topic. There where a not too small number of actual transgender people really pissed about it too, simply because - and I quote - it "painted a giant target sign on transgender people's backs".
What Amber had to (and probably still has to) deal with is f***ing unforgivable.
But I really don't find it that suprising.
The internet is a place full of assholes. Hell, the world is.
Either way, I applaud Amber and the team for their bravery and their willingness to take this step into the right direction. I don't think the entire situation was handled particularly well, but at the very least we can hope that everyone learned something from it
And hey, it certainly drew the people on the internet into looking at the topic of transgenderism, so that is a win in my book. Education starts with interest.
PS: Well, I guess it would have been hard to expect this to blow this strongly out of proportion ... still though.
I am so naive.
On the one hand: Equality.
On the other hand: Stereotypes.
Augh.
As a opinionated fence sitter I reckon I can emphasize and for the most part agree with your perspective which I take to be:
Calling people garbage is bad.
My personal view is that the "outrage" culture is not limited to transphobic and homophic gamers but is rather a larger issue that affects everyone.
In my opinion the Cracked article whilst condemning "outrage culture" becomes a part of it, to me this is evident in the three examples of "outrage" it provides:
- By stating in unoquivical terms that the PoE limerick was transphobic and then goes on with morale indignation at the fact that people got outraged when it was removed;
- The article states that the Overwatch fiasco "was treated like the greatest act of censorship since the Library of Alexandria was sacked." and then shows comments that to me in "internet speak" suggest mild indignation; and finally
- It explicitly states that a Nintendo employee was fired because she was harassed and then links an article that says otherwise.
Ultimately websites like Cracked (and the GGer equivalents) are getting hits and making money by preaching a one-dimensional view of the world to it's readers who are pre-disposed/entrenched in their views and are happy to take "journalism" that agrees with them at face value.Sadly all this serves to do is propogate hatred and detract from honest discussion, such is the way of capitalism driven mass media.
At this point I feel it is probably necessary to state that I don't condone any of the heinous posts, nor do i revel in another human beings misery.
TL:DR
Tim Minchin summarises it all pretty well:
Aw, I was kinda hoping for the cheese song, but I guess this makes more sense >.>
Fite me.
This topic is clearly very personal to a lot of people. I will say this once more, and then I'm closing the thread. I'm going to put it in a spoiler button, because this is not friendly territory, and some of you may not want to read it.
I'll put it a little more bluntly: this next bit comes with a trigger warning.
Cracked is a comedy site. They specialize in hyperbole and satire. Their writers are traditionally very progressive. A while back they had a piece about going to an orgy--and it was pretty tame, all things considered.
The article at the top of this thread is describing a stream of hateful abuse. The article is not saying that everyone with criticisms of the game is hateful or abusive; the article is pointing to specific examples of abuse, and calling it what it is. Because Cracked is a site that specializes in hyperbole and satire, they naturally draw conclusions about the people they're describing.
If you disagree with those conclusions, okay. But let's be clear: describing someone as "garbage" is not in the same galaxy as telling someone explicitly, repeatedly, that they should kill themselves, that you are going to rape them, that you are going to kill them, that you hope they get cancer, that you want to put a nail gun to the back of their head and pull the trigger. It is not the same universe as publicly celebrating when the target of your abuse kills themselves because of it.
None of those things are positive ways to interact with people--in life or on the web. But there is a difference between them. And while calling someone "garbage" is an insult, the rest of those things are violence committed in written form. If you're saying them, you're in the wrong, and people have a right to say so.