On the SoD draft, regarding the single vs. double border, how about leaving the border single, but put a few spikes on it. That way it looks more like a continuation of the border above the ground slots.
I was thinking this as I was catching up on the discussion. And for the tablet blueprint, my preference would be to have the buttons both on the right so the grid is moving vertically rather than horizontally.
Those examples look really great @Adul! Especially the SoD one looks *much* better!
I think it would be nice to include the item's basic properties as well, but this would seriously increase the likelyhood that scrolling will be required:
For the item comparison my feeling is we need to strike a balance between too much, and not enough, information. I like @Thels' first suggestion here; my preference would be to sacrifice displaying the item's basic properties to minimise scrolling.
I like that the new stats are displayed with their modifiers so I don't have to do the arithmetic.
I think concerns were raised about colouring the text so my suggestion is to incorporate the arrow icons that @Mr2150 is using.
@Mr2150: It feels weird to me to not list the actual attack and damage values for the offhand attack when equipping an item to offhand. I think they should be included.
Also keep in mind that items may get more and more stats (for example, if it wasn't a medium shield being replaced but Buckley's Buckler, it would also include a +1 bonus to piercing and missile, and a penalty to health. While I love to see the item's info up there, it may come at the cost of scrolling.
I wonder if it looks better if the values are right aligned, or at least in their own column, with the modifiers being in a second column (or the space between the end result and the modifier could be vertically aligned).
Also, in my example, I used the + sign if a value improved, and a - sign if the value became worse, regardless of the value going up or down. For example, if your armor improved from 6 to 4, I listed it as (+2). Is this consistent? Or do we want the modifier to be (-2), as it's becoming 2 lower?
Also, as a separate issue, since we're discussing the item recommendation option here, I'd vouch for changing the yellow to green. Green generally indicates "This is good!"
This could work, but I worry for the polish translation. I think the gap between the values and the modifiers could be a lot smaller to give them at least some more room. However, that only works if you add the parenthesis back, else you get "6 -1", and it looks like your armor will be 6 and then 1 lower still. 6 (-1) more clearly indicates that it's 6 because it was weakened by 1.
And the modifiers for Armor or THAC0 being positive or negative is more of a separate question.
Personally I don't care much about item comparison, but here are some thoughts anyway. -Too much information is a bad thing in this case. I think this feature is meant to be a quick comparison to give the player an idea on what's he equipping. It should give him such idea in an instant, for further information, there is an item description screen. -Scrolling while holding an item should be avoided, that simply isn't good design. Ideally a fixed amount of rows with the most significant statistics. -Remember that any new text, that isn't a numerical value will likely need new strings (with translations and everything around it), so that decreases a chance of that happening (for example texts like "Proficiency type" only exist inside the item description strings).
With the need to ensure the amount of text is short enough (to try to avoid scrolling) and not too big horizontally (for other languages), it does make me think @Adul 's simple proposal might be better.
Would it help if I right-aligned the values in that proposal ?
Second, it's not clear if those are the modifiers to main and offhand results when equipping the item in the mainhand, or the modifiers to the hand you're equipping it in. If so, are there any modifiers on the other hand?
What about the suggestion I made, but then replacing the entire top section with "Longsword +1", or whatever the name is of the item that's being swapped. Just in regular text, or perhaps a little larger, as it's the item's name.
1. Agree - it does... that's why it's simplified. 2. That's why we would need to give specific examples that can easily be replicated with our proposal so it's easy to see what we are getting at - my Meryll example from the earlier post. Right now, we just need to figure the layout. 3. Sorry, I don't follow... the name of the item is in the header line in the mock-up I did.
Also, for the damage comparison, a single value doesn't work, since it's a range. If I equip two handed sword (1d10) instead of a short sword (1d6), a single number won't provide the comparison.
1) Oversimplified. It's the new results I'm looking for, which are completely removed altogether! If having to choose between the modifier and the new result, the new result is much less prone to misunderstanding. I still think it's easy to have both.
2) If you switch from single weapon to dualwield or vice versa, any changes to one hand are also going to affect the other. Check the current edition. Even though it only shows the comparison for equipping something in the mainhand, it does include the offhand numbers, because they can be changed.
3) Sorry for not being clear. What I meant was, removing the whole section up to "Type: One-handed", and just listing the name of the item at the top.
@Pecca: You could calculate the change in average. Not perfect, which is one of the reasons I prefer new result over modifier.
Ignore the numbers as I've just copied the top piece from an earlier mock-up
So you can compare current and new quite easily.
I would rather see final values like this than the difference. Though damage should be consistent with the current value(11-22), and be listed as (7-14) instead of 1d8+6.
Remember the numbers are just placeholders to demonstrate the layout.
In that context, I can see where I am now. I can see what will happen if I equip to Main hand, or if I equip to off hand. I can see at a glance from the arrows if it is better or worse.
That looks better to me. I admit I actually prefer it when the text is green/red as well, but I know a lot of people don't and the arrows seem a decent compromise.
Also, shouldn't the damage and thaco actually be red arrows in the above mock up? If not, I am clearly reading this wrong.
That looks better to me. I admit I actually prefer it when the text is green/red as well, but I know a lot of people don't and the arrows seem a decent compromise.
Also, shouldn't the damage and thaco actually be red arrows in the above mock up? If not, I am clearly reading this wrong.
I think I'm actually missing the coloured text too, but I think its just getting used to the arrows.
I still think that the proposed solutions don't provide the key function - instantaneous comparison. It could still be there while showing the advanced information. Like this:
Yeah, that's one reason we switched to the arrows. Though if other people miss the colored text too, we could maybe do both. But I think there may be more people who dislike it.
My only issue with that approach @Pecca is that feels very much like a spreadsheet and that was an earlier objection to the current format, I think. Personally, however, I don't hate it.
Part of me feels like all we really need is what @Pecca suggests - the instantaneous comparison, but as @Thels has pointed out that's only a partial comparison.
Another layout...don't know if its easier or not...
Comments
Those examples look really great @Adul! Especially the SoD one looks *much* better!
I like that the new stats are displayed with their modifiers so I don't have to do the arithmetic.
I think concerns were raised about colouring the text so my suggestion is to incorporate the arrow icons that @Mr2150 is using.
Here's what the proposal from @Thels might look like:
I removed any lines where the stat didn't change (to save space).
I have to say I quite like it.
Also keep in mind that items may get more and more stats (for example, if it wasn't a medium shield being replaced but Buckley's Buckler, it would also include a +1 bonus to piercing and missile, and a penalty to health. While I love to see the item's info up there, it may come at the cost of scrolling.
I wonder if it looks better if the values are right aligned, or at least in their own column, with the modifiers being in a second column (or the space between the end result and the modifier could be vertically aligned).
Also, in my example, I used the + sign if a value improved, and a - sign if the value became worse, regardless of the value going up or down. For example, if your armor improved from 6 to 4, I listed it as (+2). Is this consistent? Or do we want the modifier to be (-2), as it's becoming 2 lower?
Also, as a separate issue, since we're discussing the item recommendation option here, I'd vouch for changing the yellow to green. Green generally indicates "This is good!"
I've not worried about the +/- thing, so just look at this from a layout perspective.
This could work, but I worry for the polish translation. I think the gap between the values and the modifiers could be a lot smaller to give them at least some more room. However, that only works if you add the parenthesis back, else you get "6 -1", and it looks like your armor will be 6 and then 1 lower still. 6 (-1) more clearly indicates that it's 6 because it was weakened by 1.
And the modifiers for Armor or THAC0 being positive or negative is more of a separate question.
-Too much information is a bad thing in this case. I think this feature is meant to be a quick comparison to give the player an idea on what's he equipping. It should give him such idea in an instant, for further information, there is an item description screen.
-Scrolling while holding an item should be avoided, that simply isn't good design. Ideally a fixed amount of rows with the most significant statistics.
-Remember that any new text, that isn't a numerical value will likely need new strings (with translations and everything around it), so that decreases a chance of that happening (for example texts like "Proficiency type" only exist inside the item description strings).
With the need to ensure the amount of text is short enough (to try to avoid scrolling) and not too big horizontally (for other languages), it does make me think @Adul 's simple proposal might be better.
Would it help if I right-aligned the values in that proposal ?
First, it completely omits the new values.
Second, it's not clear if those are the modifiers to main and offhand results when equipping the item in the mainhand, or the modifiers to the hand you're equipping it in. If so, are there any modifiers on the other hand?
What about the suggestion I made, but then replacing the entire top section with "Longsword +1", or whatever the name is of the item that's being swapped. Just in regular text, or perhaps a little larger, as it's the item's name.
2. That's why we would need to give specific examples that can easily be replicated with our proposal so it's easy to see what we are getting at - my Meryll example from the earlier post. Right now, we just need to figure the layout.
3. Sorry, I don't follow... the name of the item is in the header line in the mock-up I did.
OK - so we have about 15 lines of text we can work with - anyone else got any suggestions?
2) If you switch from single weapon to dualwield or vice versa, any changes to one hand are also going to affect the other. Check the current edition. Even though it only shows the comparison for equipping something in the mainhand, it does include the offhand numbers, because they can be changed.
3) Sorry for not being clear. What I meant was, removing the whole section up to "Type: One-handed", and just listing the name of the item at the top.
@Pecca: You could calculate the change in average. Not perfect, which is one of the reasons I prefer new result over modifier.
So it's just showing new values...
With the coloured arrows indicating good or bad I think it would be fine to say a negative modifier to AC is good.
So you can compare current and new quite easily. I think having any more text on any line might be an issue in other languages...?
Remember the numbers are just placeholders to demonstrate the layout.
In that context, I can see where I am now. I can see what will happen if I equip to Main hand, or if I equip to off hand. I can see at a glance from the arrows if it is better or worse.
Also, shouldn't the damage and thaco actually be red arrows in the above mock up? If not, I am clearly reading this wrong.
For me, i'd want to see at a glance how big the difference is without having to check back and fore between the icon boxes.
Another layout...don't know if its easier or not...