I can only see two solutions... the two line approach that @kjeron suggested or a bracketing approach. Average, I think is very misleading.
in that case i'd say break it into 2 lines for min and max but only show the relevant number and the modifier, not the full range.
Edit: the more brackets used are going to turn it into an equation, which some people are not going to understand.
Edit 2: it occurs to me after looking at @Thels last layout that we don't need to say 'offhand damage', we already know its the offhand whereas we do need to make the distinction for thac0.
Edit 2: it occurs to me after looking at @Thels last layout that we don't need to say 'offhand damage', we already know its the offhand whereas we do need to make the distinction for thac0.
The distinction is still necessary, its possible to change your mainhand damage by altering your offhand weapon/shield.
Heh, it seems like we really can't agree on anything in regards to item comparisons. I predict a dozen mods popping up if this ever becomes a reality. Hopefully they won't hardcode it. (Although unfortunately at this level they usually do.)
Do we even need to make a group recommendation? We could just let individual people submit their own feature requests. And I'm sure Beamdog could come up with something on their own.
Minimum and Maximum are a single line together at the top, as well as a single line on the record screen, so I feel like they should be a single line in the text window as well, which means there's only one line for modifier value. I personally don't see a problem with the 1.5 with the arrow up. Damage goes up by 1.5.
Admittedly, it's average damage, and not absolute damage. Due to rolling 2d4 instead of 1d8, numbers are going to be slightly different, but is that really important at the basic level? Is indicating that damage goes up by 1.5 not a proper indication that damage is going up?
As in approximately.... because it's a rolled number and a range it's hard to say for certain. That at least implies an increase but doesn't imply the 1.5 is absolute.
Every other number in the list is absolute. It is extremely bad form and very confusing, to mix one averaged value into a list of numbers that are otherwise absolute and final, without indicating that the type of number has changed.
It might make new users assume they are always doing 1.5 more damage - which may not be the case. In fact, in the example, only one potential damage value achieves a result higher than I originally could roll (when the damage is exactly 14) and that's exactly 1 higher (as I could always potentially roll 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13).
Potential Options: - @Thels 's approach to show the average increase (1.5). Is a new user going to know how we've got from (6-13) to (8-14) to 1.5.... I doubt it. - Using a symbol of some sort to represent and indicate the value is an approximate increase, eg '~1.5' which implies approximately. Requires some form of previous knowledge of the symbol and may also be confusing. - @kjeron 's approach to have a line for min damage and a line for max damage. I'd argue this is the most accurate as it specifically shows value by value the increases/decreases and doesn't take any extra steps or present misleading information. The trouble is we know we are limited with space and we want to try to prevent scrolling. - My approach of using brackets, giving (+2) - (+1) is essentially a way to combine @kjeron 's approach into one line. I agree it could be confusing. - *** Show the increase/decrease in average damage as a separate line, something like this. However it uses an extra line.
- Show the range differently. Not bad, would account for increases and decreases in either the min or max value. Doesn't show the calculated value.
- Don't show the increase/decrease in damage, it's clear that the range is now different anyway. - Add a calculated row at the top of the comparison table, but only for weapons, to show 'Average Damage per Round. Probably the most accurate and useful overall but the 'average damage per round' isn't used elsewhere... maybe it could be added to the standard inventory screen? Example:
The thing for me is that we should be as accurate as possible and not be misleading. We shouldn't be hiding steps or information, and that's really hard when it comes to damage.
Thoughts?
*** On reviewing those options, this one is actually my favourite. It is accurate, easy to understand and doesn't mislead.
I wanna advocate KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). The Item Comparison is sort of intended for people that don't know all the details.
I think the Average Damage per Round there is even more confusing. Is that the current Average Damage per round? If so, why is it in the item comparison screen?
IF Average Damage per Round is to be included, it should be in the regular window, perhaps at the bottom of the weapon damage section, but it's misleading, as it assumes 100% hit chance. One may equip an item that has worse THAC0 and better Damage, and think "Hey, Average Damage went up! Overall that must've been a good idea."
If people don't even know that 8-14 is a damage range, that you can deal any damage between 8 to 14, no value that you specify is going to explicitly inform them what the number means. For those people, seeing that the damage improved by 1.5 is good enough.
When they start to understand the numbers better, it'll be clear that it's a damage range, and then they'll be able to figure out it's average damage.
I confess I'm not that good with all the numbers the easiest thing I think would be to show the modifiers on the min and max damage (eg. on main hand damage):
What if the compared item gave you -1 min damage and +2 max damage? You can't do damage ranges there. Averages are the way to go.
for consistency we'd need to change damage to an average in the icon box?
No, I wouldn't want to make that sacrifice. Especially for something I probably won't even use.
I think we'd need to try for consistency. I'm okay with average damage displayed on the inventory screen and getting the range from the full item description.
This right here. We are already trying to cram too much info into an inventory screen. We already have item descriptions and character records for detailed info.
What if the compared item gave you -1 min damage and +2 max damage? You can't do damage ranges there. Averages are the way to go.
for consistency we'd need to change damage to an average in the icon box?
No, I wouldn't want to make that sacrifice. Especially for something I probably won't even use.
I think we'd need to try for consistency. I'm okay with average damage displayed on the inventory screen and getting the range from the full item description.
This right here. We are already trying to cram too much info into an inventory screen. We already have item descriptions and character records for detailed info.
Consistency's great, but item comparison is not important enough to be worth other features paying the price. Honestly, at this point I don't care at all what happens with the item comparison as long as it can be turned off and the rest of the UI remains intact.
I believe the original intent of these “Making it Work Threads” was to first cover the areas of the new UI that are not working well, causing problems or concerns for some players. I don’t think there is any limit to how many different ideas can be considered, but for the purpose of this report I don’t think we need to come up with every possible new idea all at once.
There has been a lot of discussion about giving the players a choice of UI skins. I feel that we have provided some good samples here for them to consider. They will decide what they want to do with them from here, if anything.
Other major points in the OP were the option to toggle off the item comparison feature and the jarring affect that having half the inventory screen be visibly altered caused for some players.
As long as I can turn the item comparison feature off, it doesn’t really matter to me whether they leave it as is, or change what it contains to reflect other ideas people who use it may have.
But I don’t think it needs to hold up the rest of the report. There can be a separate report, or many of them for that window if people want to have different ideas considered.
I think either 1.5 or @Danathion's new mock up would work fine. Personally, I don't even mind the current item comparison but those seem to get the point across and it sounds like most of us are just going to turn it off anyway, so we may not be the best people to ask.
Okay, here goes. Let me know what you think. English is my second language so also let me know if I made any egregious mistakes.
Title:
Making it Work: Inventory
Content:
In the past weeks, many of us on the Beamdog forums have banded together to offer our feedback and criticism on the 2.0+ inventory UI screen and to compile our ideas and suggestions for its improvement into a comprehensive design proposal.
We agreed that item comparison functions should be optional. Some players experience lag from these functions, which should be fixed. Others don't like them from a game mechanics or aesthetic perspective.
We suggest the introduction of two toggle options in the settings menu, under an inventory header: - Item Recommendations ON/OFF - Item Comparison ON/OFF
Item Recommendations is the portrait coloring to recommend which characters might make good use of the selected item (green overlay), and to show which characters are unable to use the item (dark grey overlay). This can be toggled on/off as needed but the default is ON.
Item Comparison is the change in text of the text area to indicate whether the selected item is better or worse than the currently equipped item. This can be toggled on/off as needed but the default is ON.
2. Layout Changes
We suggest using a single inventory layout for all the EE game UIs, which could be a step towards letting players select which UI skin they want to use.
We've come up with the following layout proposal:
2.1. Header
The second line of the header that prints out the character's name and class has been restored to run the full width of the screen. This gives the screen an overall better visual structure.
2.2. Color Button
The color button that opens the character color window has been expanded in size in order to allow it to display both the major and minor color options.
If due to some limitation only one color can be displayed, it should be the major color, not the minor color.
2.3. Combat Stats
We agreed that in addition to the AC, HP, THAC0 and Damage combat stats, the screen should also prominently feature the Attacks per Round stat.
In order for the stat numbers to be able to appear with a decent font size, we brought the numbers out of the icons and made the icons smaller. Also shown are new design proposals for the stat icons which we find easier to interpret at glance than the old ones.
The stats are arranged horizontally, and underneath them is a large, scrolling text field that prints out the breakdowns for each stat in a "Header > Breakdown" format.
Clicking the header of a specific stat breakdown collapses the breakdown, clicking it again expands it. The game remembers which stat breakdowns are collapsed, so that they're always in the preferred configuration when the player opens their inventory.
Hovering the mouse over a stat number or a stat icon should show the name of the stat via the tooltip. For tablets, tapping a stat icon or stat number could also show the tooltip.
2.4. Item Comparison
When the item comparison feature is turned on, selecting an equipable item in the inventory shows relevant item comparison details in the large text field, temporarily replacing the stat breakdowns.
We've made the following proposals for what item comparisons might look like with this layout if the player held a regular long sword and medium shield and picked up a bastard sword +1:
2.5. Ground Item Slots
The ground item slots are arranged horizontally in a 2×4 slot table. Next to the table is a vertical scroll bar that scrolls the ground items one line at a time.
For tablets and phones, and for situations where the scroll bar is not a feasible solution, we suggest using an alternate layout with button scrolling:
3. Ornamentation
Many of us agreed that some of the 2.0 inventory screen designs are lacking in ornamentation compared to their previous incarnations, and that they are too simplified aesthetically.
4. Examples
We've prepared mockups with some of the existing art styles to demonstrate how the proposed inventory layout could be implemented in various EE games.
Note that any extra ornamentation in these images is placeholder only, meant as an indication to where the screens could use the touch of a skilled artist to add visual detail.
At the bottom of 2.3, you mention that the tooltip should appear when mousing over the new icon boxes. Perhaps the tooltip should also appear when clicking these boxes (for touch screens)?
Also, under 1, I'd personally love to recommend the color for item recommendation to change to green (the same green used for writable scrolls in the inventory), as yellow is a caution color. Minor detail only, though.
Finally, for clarity's sake, for the item comparison window, you may want to add that it assumes holding a regular longsword and a regular medium shield, with a bastard sword +1 being picked up from the inventory.
The only thing that I would add is a specific request that the player be given the option to choose between the three different styles of skins, to be used in all three games. BG EE, BGII EE and SoD.
Alright, I'm off to bed. I'll wait until tomorrow to send it so that in the meanwhile people in other time zones can still suggest corrections if they have any.
Comments
Edit: the more brackets used are going to turn it into an equation, which some people are not going to understand.
Edit 2: it occurs to me after looking at @Thels last layout that we don't need to say 'offhand damage', we already know its the offhand whereas we do need to make the distinction for thac0.
Do we even need to make a group recommendation? We could just let individual people submit their own feature requests. And I'm sure Beamdog could come up with something on their own.
Admittedly, it's average damage, and not absolute damage. Due to rolling 2d4 instead of 1d8, numbers are going to be slightly different, but is that really important at the basic level? Is indicating that damage goes up by 1.5 not a proper indication that damage is going up?
As in approximately.... because it's a rolled number and a range it's hard to say for certain. That at least implies an increase but doesn't imply the 1.5 is absolute.
First, you have to know that ~ means 'close to'/'more or less'.
Secondly, if you know that, you may think that it's a number like 1.48 or 1.52 that got rounded. It still doesn't indicate that it's an average.
And the average IS exactly 1.5, not around 1.5.
Every other number in the list is absolute. It is extremely bad form and very confusing, to mix one averaged value into a list of numbers that are otherwise absolute and final, without indicating that the type of number has changed.
It might make new users assume they are always doing 1.5 more damage - which may not be the case. In fact, in the example, only one potential damage value achieves a result higher than I originally could roll (when the damage is exactly 14) and that's exactly 1 higher (as I could always potentially roll 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13).
Potential Options:
- @Thels 's approach to show the average increase (1.5). Is a new user going to know how we've got from (6-13) to (8-14) to 1.5.... I doubt it.
- Using a symbol of some sort to represent and indicate the value is an approximate increase, eg '~1.5' which implies approximately. Requires some form of previous knowledge of the symbol and may also be confusing.
- @kjeron 's approach to have a line for min damage and a line for max damage. I'd argue this is the most accurate as it specifically shows value by value the increases/decreases and doesn't take any extra steps or present misleading information. The trouble is we know we are limited with space and we want to try to prevent scrolling.
- My approach of using brackets, giving (+2) - (+1) is essentially a way to combine @kjeron 's approach into one line. I agree it could be confusing.
- *** Show the increase/decrease in average damage as a separate line, something like this. However it uses an extra line.
- Show the range differently. Not bad, would account for increases and decreases in either the min or max value. Doesn't show the calculated value.
- Don't show the increase/decrease in damage, it's clear that the range is now different anyway.
- Add a calculated row at the top of the comparison table, but only for weapons, to show 'Average Damage per Round. Probably the most accurate and useful overall but the 'average damage per round' isn't used elsewhere... maybe it could be added to the standard inventory screen? Example:
The thing for me is that we should be as accurate as possible and not be misleading. We shouldn't be hiding steps or information, and that's really hard when it comes to damage.
Thoughts?
*** On reviewing those options, this one is actually my favourite. It is accurate, easy to understand and doesn't mislead.
I think the Average Damage per Round there is even more confusing. Is that the current Average Damage per round? If so, why is it in the item comparison screen?
IF Average Damage per Round is to be included, it should be in the regular window, perhaps at the bottom of the weapon damage section, but it's misleading, as it assumes 100% hit chance. One may equip an item that has worse THAC0 and better Damage, and think "Hey, Average Damage went up! Overall that must've been a good idea."
If people don't even know that 8-14 is a damage range, that you can deal any damage between 8 to 14, no value that you specify is going to explicitly inform them what the number means. For those people, seeing that the damage improved by 1.5 is good enough.
When they start to understand the numbers better, it'll be clear that it's a damage range, and then they'll be able to figure out it's average damage.
Really, we need a new players to give their opinions on what would be most useful.
The more information you add, the more ways it can be interpreted (in all kinds of incorrect ways).
There has been a lot of discussion about giving the players a choice of UI skins. I feel that we have provided some good samples here for them to consider. They will decide what they want to do with them from here, if anything.
Other major points in the OP were the option to toggle off the item comparison feature and the jarring affect that having half the inventory screen be visibly altered caused for some players.
As long as I can turn the item comparison feature off, it doesn’t really matter to me whether they leave it as is, or change what it contains to reflect other ideas people who use it may have.
But I don’t think it needs to hold up the rest of the report. There can be a separate report, or many of them for that window if people want to have different ideas considered.
But then I'm beginning to think we're overthinking it and realistically I'm happy with @Thels' 1.5.
Are you interesting in making up a report based on the suggestions we’ve come up with here so far?
Title:
Making it Work: Inventory
Content:
In the past weeks, many of us on the Beamdog forums have banded together to offer our feedback and criticism on the 2.0+ inventory UI screen and to compile our ideas and suggestions for its improvement into a comprehensive design proposal.
Our discussion can be viewed here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/61063/making-it-work-inventory
I will list our main conclusions below.
1. Item Comparison
We agreed that item comparison functions should be optional. Some players experience lag from these functions, which should be fixed. Others don't like them from a game mechanics or aesthetic perspective.
We suggest the introduction of two toggle options in the settings menu, under an inventory header:
- Item Recommendations ON/OFF
- Item Comparison ON/OFF
Item Recommendations is the portrait coloring to recommend which characters might make good use of the selected item (green overlay), and to show which characters are unable to use the item (dark grey overlay). This can be toggled on/off as needed but the default is ON.
Item Comparison is the change in text of the text area to indicate whether the selected item is better or worse than the currently equipped item. This can be toggled on/off as needed but the default is ON.
2. Layout Changes
We suggest using a single inventory layout for all the EE game UIs, which could be a step towards letting players select which UI skin they want to use.
We've come up with the following layout proposal:
2.1. Header
The second line of the header that prints out the character's name and class has been restored to run the full width of the screen. This gives the screen an overall better visual structure.
2.2. Color Button
The color button that opens the character color window has been expanded in size in order to allow it to display both the major and minor color options.
If due to some limitation only one color can be displayed, it should be the major color, not the minor color.
2.3. Combat Stats
We agreed that in addition to the AC, HP, THAC0 and Damage combat stats, the screen should also prominently feature the Attacks per Round stat.
In order for the stat numbers to be able to appear with a decent font size, we brought the numbers out of the icons and made the icons smaller. Also shown are new design proposals for the stat icons which we find easier to interpret at glance than the old ones.
The stats are arranged horizontally, and underneath them is a large, scrolling text field that prints out the breakdowns for each stat in a "Header > Breakdown" format.
Clicking the header of a specific stat breakdown collapses the breakdown, clicking it again expands it. The game remembers which stat breakdowns are collapsed, so that they're always in the preferred configuration when the player opens their inventory.
Hovering the mouse over a stat number or a stat icon should show the name of the stat via the tooltip. For tablets, tapping a stat icon or stat number could also show the tooltip.
2.4. Item Comparison
When the item comparison feature is turned on, selecting an equipable item in the inventory shows relevant item comparison details in the large text field, temporarily replacing the stat breakdowns.
We've made the following proposals for what item comparisons might look like with this layout if the player held a regular long sword and medium shield and picked up a bastard sword +1:
2.5. Ground Item Slots
The ground item slots are arranged horizontally in a 2×4 slot table. Next to the table is a vertical scroll bar that scrolls the ground items one line at a time.
For tablets and phones, and for situations where the scroll bar is not a feasible solution, we suggest using an alternate layout with button scrolling:
3. Ornamentation
Many of us agreed that some of the 2.0 inventory screen designs are lacking in ornamentation compared to their previous incarnations, and that they are too simplified aesthetically.
4. Examples
We've prepared mockups with some of the existing art styles to demonstrate how the proposed inventory layout could be implemented in various EE games.
Note that any extra ornamentation in these images is placeholder only, meant as an indication to where the screens could use the touch of a skilled artist to add visual detail.
At the bottom of 2.3, you mention that the tooltip should appear when mousing over the new icon boxes. Perhaps the tooltip should also appear when clicking these boxes (for touch screens)?
Also, under 1, I'd personally love to recommend the color for item recommendation to change to green (the same green used for writable scrolls in the inventory), as yellow is a caution color. Minor detail only, though.
Finally, for clarity's sake, for the item comparison window, you may want to add that it assumes holding a regular longsword and a regular medium shield, with a bastard sword +1 being picked up from the inventory.
The only thing that I would add is a specific request that the player be given the option to choose between the three different styles of skins, to be used in all three games. BG EE, BGII EE and SoD.