The 3E imbalance in favor of clerics is very prominent in IWD2, the only 3E game using the Infinity Engine. Clerics are the best damage dealers and tanks as well as the best healers, because their buffs and healing spells outweigh a fighter's normal advantages.
They're not too bad if you actually play them like a Druid. If you play them like a Fighter, like what I saw a Let's Player do, they're definitely not the greatest.
He also played a Cleric as a Fighter too. I don't know why he didn't just make a Fighter or a Barbarian...
I get the feeling he's never made a PnP character with less than a d8 hit dice before, so I'm almost scared as to what he'd do with something lower than that.
To be fair, playing a class against it's standard archetype is fun, I love playing Trickery Clerics in 5e now as kind of a Cleric/Thief, but if Fighter's what you want, Fighter is what you should play.
Playing mages as warriors can be a helluva lot a fun. Transmutation is my favourite school for a reason.
On a more topic related note... this thread inspired me to create a fighters run, talking all the fighters except Jaheira and Khalid. Shar-Teel, Kagain, Montaron and now just got Coran.
Coran has mastery in longbows. 3 pips. And he has a random -2 bonus to his thaco, plus elf, plus longbows... wow, his Thac0 is rock bottom. I thought he was just a normal fighterthief, but apparently not. We'll see how he performs by the end of the game, when we tally up the kills and experience and see who the 'best' fighter is.
Shar-Teel is well ahead, being a dual wielder and the only non-ranger fighter with 18str. But we'll see if Coran catches up despite his later start. Potentially this could make him the most damaging fighter in the game. I never knew...
"Across the series" is a bit weird for Sarevok, but he's for sure the best fighter. Not even talking about his stats, just Deathbringer Assault alone is enough for the top spot.
I think it depends on what you expect from a fighter. Going by pure damage output and badass factor, he's unmatched. But he isn't flawless, his saves lack, and he only has hardiness to rely on when it gets to durability. He cannot buff himself, once he gets debuffed in a more drawn out battle he requires more attention than any of the others who all have some additional means to sustain themselves. Korgan, Jaheira, and Keldorn bring enough to the table to not being considered inferior.
Sarevok. He might not be the best tank, he might not have the most HP, he might not be versatile with styles/weapons and/or spells. But Sarevok is a complete monster. His stats are insane and fitting to a Bhaalspawn and his Deathbringer Assault makes a joke out of bosses.
So I've been running Kagain, Shar-Teel, Montaron, Coran and Yeslick through the game with a Skald Charname.
Only just got to Baldur's Gate. With only the Cloakwood and the Mine under his belt, Coran has already lapped Shar-Teel in number of kills. I've been taking screenshots for fun so will post the playthrough in @BelgarathMTH 's 'Raising Charname' thread.
I'll explain more of the conditions under which I used the fighters there, but it does look like none of the fighters deliver quite the damage that Coran does. And he only got one 'fav' pick, even!
It looks like Sarevok has taken a slim lead in the poll. Korgan supporters need to get out the vote! Remember, a vote for Korgan is a vote for progress.
@sluckers Coran has illegal dex and illegal mastery in bow, in a game where ranged weapons are so strong. But have meh str and con, that for a ranged fighter are not so important. I suppose that this, and the way that you use them, explain everything. Kagain is the best tank of them, and for a fighter also that is important, dmg is not the only thing, the number of kills can be quite misleading judging how a fighter is good (useful for the party). Until you will explain more of the conditions under which you used the fighters there I can only suppose, but I suppose that without a Kagain tanking, with his good HP and ST, Coran would have shined a lot less, being a multi with low HP and STR. He has being intentionally (and illegally) been designed to be the best DMG dealer.
@Danacm true, but also Korgan with the helm. No deathbringer assault, but combined with IH 4xAPR, on a better base APR, as can DW using Crom or a +1APR weapon off hand. Up to 8 more APR then Sarewok & clone. And even Minsc or Jaheira are not bad at all. Only a Kensai is not. I think that in evaluating is fine to take in account items that exist and can improve a certain NPC, like a str belt for jaheira or braciers that give better dex to Korgan. But an item that can be used by anyone and don't fix a weakness of the NPC but make a copy of him has not to be taken in account, as it give to anyone the same bonus. EDIT I want to expand a little further my thoughts on the hem, in a spoiler to avoid a textwall
Sarewok, with his assault and using the helm for the clone is REALLY powerful, I agree. But is also really risky. The clone has not the levels of the original, so have not his ST, is perfectly possible that an umber hulk, that in ToB is a weak enemy, confuses the clone, and that the clone starts to hit his companions. and maybe the assault, that is completely random, trigger 2 times at it happens. Sarewok + clone can win many battles for you, if you are luky, or can decimate your party, if you are not. Korgan's clone and Minsc's one are safe, as they can use all their rages, that will last more than the clones if chained, being completely safe and adding rage bonuses to the GWW that a clone can use for free. Jaheira's clone is not so safe and strong, but can take the place of the original, tanking and damaging, while she disables the mages with the insect spell. and that take only a round, than you can have 2 Jaheira fighting, but also jaheira's elemental prince, that doesn't prevent a mage or cleric to add a deva or planetar. and maybe a fire elemental from the clone. So she, when using the helm, can be the most damaging one in the end, the best helm user for that only use x day that you can have.
This game is so great because if we look beyond easy truths we almost always discover that there is much more to find. And this doesn't make the easy truths untrue, Sarewok using the helm is indeed a monster of destruction. It make only the game much richer, much enjoyable.
@Danacm true, but also Korgan with the helm. No deathbringer assault, but combined with IH 4xAPR, on a better base APR, as can DW using Crom or a +1APR weapon off hand. Up to 8 more APR then Sarewok & clone. And even Minsc or Jaheira are not bad at all. Only a Kensai is not. I think that in evaluating is fine to take in account items that exist and can improve a certain NPC, like a str belt for jaheira or braciers that give better dex to Korgan. But an item that can be used by anyone and don't fix a weakness of the NPC but make a copy of him has not to be taken in account, as it give to anyone the same bonus. EDIT I want to expand a little further my thoughts on the hem, in a spoiler to avoid a textwall
Sarewok, with his assault and using the helm for the clone is REALLY powerful, I agree. But is also really risky. The clone has not the levels of the original, so have not his ST, is perfectly possible that an umber hulk, that in ToB is a weak enemy, confuses the clone, and that the clone starts to hit his companions. and maybe the assault, that is completely random, trigger 2 times at it happens. Sarewok + clone can win many battles for you, if you are luky, or can decimate your party, if you are not. Korgan's clone and Minsc's one are safe, as they can use all their rages, that will last more than the clones if chained, being completely safe and adding rage bonuses to the GWW that a clone can use for free. Jaheira's clone is not so safe and strong, but can take the place of the original, tanking and damaging, while she disables the mages with the insect spell. and that take only a round, than you can have 2 Jaheira fighting, but also jaheira's elemental prince, that doesn't prevent a mage or cleric to add a deva or planetar. and maybe a fire elemental from the clone. So she, when using the helm, can be the most damaging one in the end, the best helm user for that only use x day that you can have.
This game is so great because if we look beyond easy truths we almost always discover that there is much more to find. And this doesn't make the easy truths untrue, Sarewok using the helm is indeed a monster of destruction. It make only the game much richer, much enjoyable.
Yes this item is so powerful, i used to use it on a blade bard, and buff up and tenser with the clone, while my bard casting spells. But every other class can profit from this item
Also I used to use on a blade, Haer Dalis, while my charname FMT, my F/M and Aerie was using their own simulacra, the 2 Aerie DW with 25 STR and 4 APR in iron golem form, 50 dmg/hit. And the Planetar. All of them dealing big DMG while mlee. That was POWER. And the sorcerer Improved hasting everybody, debuffing enemies and then starting with the ADHWs, using a spell trap loop to do it for free, was a big part of it. The mislead clones singing was really not needed, but possible, and a blade and his simulacrum can produce quite a good number of them. Sarewok? Korgan? please, don't make me laugh...
Sometimes i love to build sarevok, korgan or the pc with halberds for the ravager. With simulacrum and whirlwind is overkill. But not the classes, the item is too strong.
Try with FMT or FM, and Korgan or Sarewok, 3 ravager in the same battle, 2 of them with GWW costantly as the 2 simulacrums can not save them for later, THAT is power
Try with FMT or FM, and Korgan or Sarewok, 3 ravager in the same battle, 2 of them with GWW costantly as the 2 simulacrums can not save them for later, THAT is power
Hahaha what a great idea @gorgonzola i create a new evil or neutral blade for this(revised pnp spellcasting allows bards up to lvl 8 spells as in the adnd2 high level campaigns rulebook) and try this again. I love blades bit idk not fighter mages. My other loved character whom never finished any campaign was fighter dualled to assasin. Ahhh i cant choose from them, but only blade can reach own simulacra
With blade is less powerful as he lacks APR while welding a 2H sword, he can not reach more than 2. But a blade casting lev 8 spells is even more powerful, you can have an incredible number of mislead clones stacking their songs, for something like 80-100 dmg, AC and thaco bonus. And huge MR. Every party member, including summoned spiders with their good apr, will hit like a truck, and every time that is not a critical miss. They will be also be hit only on crits. This against the best enemies of the game. A spider alone can kill a LOB dragon in one or 2 rounds. Who needs ravager then?
I am not against abuses, I actively research on them and have great fun in trying them, even if I almost every time reload and fight again in a fair way. But a blade with lev 8 spell imo is potentially the most broken thing you can have in the game, I know it, I did try it.
Odd choice? For my playing style he is without doubt the biggest killer.
I use lots of animated dead fodder. Coran stalks behind in stealth, and while the skeletons form the meatless meat shield, Coran can be relied on to drop everything.
For the whole series? Ranged combat loses its deadliness in BG2... But Jaheria is the only true character on the list who can claim to be available through the whole series.
...
Yeslick is good, however he needs bracers of dex and belt of hill giant strength to make him a killer.
Also Kagain needs Bentley's buckler to give him regeneration... Thus making him the best meatshield out there! Think of all those healing potions saved for Khalid to use! He is a bit like a skeleton that refuses to die... Uhm... Again...
...
Anyway due to the two above needing extra equipment... I chose Coran.
Comments
Druids, in other hand, not so much.
He also played a Cleric as a Fighter too. I don't know why he didn't just make a Fighter or a Barbarian...
To be fair, playing a class against it's standard archetype is fun, I love playing Trickery Clerics in 5e now as kind of a Cleric/Thief, but if Fighter's what you want, Fighter is what you should play.
...Not that I ever used many Prestige classes, mind, being the class purist I am (except for my utter love now of the Cleric/Thief.)
On a more topic related note... this thread inspired me to create a fighters run, talking all the fighters except Jaheira and Khalid. Shar-Teel, Kagain, Montaron and now just got Coran.
Coran has mastery in longbows. 3 pips. And he has a random -2 bonus to his thaco, plus elf, plus longbows... wow, his Thac0 is rock bottom. I thought he was just a normal fighterthief, but apparently not. We'll see how he performs by the end of the game, when we tally up the kills and experience and see who the 'best' fighter is.
Shar-Teel is well ahead, being a dual wielder and the only non-ranger fighter with 18str. But we'll see if Coran catches up despite his later start. Potentially this could make him the most damaging fighter in the game. I never knew...
Korgan, Jaheira, and Keldorn bring enough to the table to not being considered inferior.
But Sarevok is a complete monster. His stats are insane and fitting to a Bhaalspawn and his Deathbringer Assault makes a joke out of bosses.
Only just got to Baldur's Gate. With only the Cloakwood and the Mine under his belt, Coran has already lapped Shar-Teel in number of kills. I've been taking screenshots for fun so will post the playthrough in @BelgarathMTH 's 'Raising Charname' thread.
I'll explain more of the conditions under which I used the fighters there, but it does look like none of the fighters deliver quite the damage that Coran does. And he only got one 'fav' pick, even!
But have meh str and con, that for a ranged fighter are not so important. I suppose that this, and the way that you use them, explain everything. Kagain is the best tank of them, and for a fighter also that is important, dmg is not the only thing, the number of kills can be quite misleading judging how a fighter is good (useful for the party).
Until you will explain more of the conditions under which you used the fighters there I can only suppose, but I suppose that without a Kagain tanking, with his good HP and ST, Coran would have shined a lot less, being a multi with low HP and STR. He has being intentionally (and illegally) been designed to be the best DMG dealer.
horsebearpowerOnly a Kensai is not.
I think that in evaluating is fine to take in account items that exist and can improve a certain NPC, like a str belt for jaheira or braciers that give better dex to Korgan.
But an item that can be used by anyone and don't fix a weakness of the NPC but make a copy of him has not to be taken in account, as it give to anyone the same bonus.
EDIT
I want to expand a little further my thoughts on the hem, in a spoiler to avoid a textwall
But is also really risky. The clone has not the levels of the original, so have not his ST, is perfectly possible that an umber hulk, that in ToB is a weak enemy, confuses the clone, and that the clone starts to hit his companions. and maybe the assault, that is completely random, trigger 2 times at it happens. Sarewok + clone can win many battles for you, if you are luky, or can decimate your party, if you are not.
Korgan's clone and Minsc's one are safe, as they can use all their rages, that will last more than the clones if chained, being completely safe and adding rage bonuses to the GWW that a clone can use for free.
Jaheira's clone is not so safe and strong, but can take the place of the original, tanking and damaging, while she disables the mages with the insect spell. and that take only a round, than you can have 2 Jaheira fighting, but also jaheira's elemental prince, that doesn't prevent a mage or cleric to add a deva or planetar. and maybe a fire elemental from the clone. So she, when using the helm, can be the most damaging one in the end, the best helm user for that only use x day that you can have.
This game is so great because if we look beyond easy truths we almost always discover that there is much more to find. And this doesn't make the easy truths untrue, Sarewok using the helm is indeed a monster of destruction. It make only the game much richer, much enjoyable.
The mislead clones singing was really not needed, but possible, and a blade and his simulacrum can produce quite a good number of them.
Sarewok? Korgan? please, don't make me laugh...
But a blade casting lev 8 spells is even more powerful, you can have an incredible number of mislead clones stacking their songs, for something like 80-100 dmg, AC and thaco bonus. And huge MR. Every party member, including summoned spiders with their good apr, will hit like a truck, and every time that is not a critical miss. They will be also be hit only on crits. This against the best enemies of the game. A spider alone can kill a LOB dragon in one or 2 rounds. Who needs ravager then?
I am not against abuses, I actively research on them and have great fun in trying them, even if I almost every time reload and fight again in a fair way. But a blade with lev 8 spell imo is potentially the most broken thing you can have in the game, I know it, I did try it.
I use lots of animated dead fodder. Coran stalks behind in stealth, and while the skeletons form the meatless meat shield, Coran can be relied on to drop everything.
For the whole series? Ranged combat loses its deadliness in BG2... But Jaheria is the only true character on the list who can claim to be available through the whole series.
...
Yeslick is good, however he needs bracers of dex and belt of hill giant strength to make him a killer.
Also Kagain needs Bentley's buckler to give him regeneration... Thus making him the best meatshield out there! Think of all those healing potions saved for Khalid to use! He is a bit like a skeleton that refuses to die... Uhm... Again...
...
Anyway due to the two above needing extra equipment... I chose Coran.